So, 31% of All Americans Are Unsupportive of LGBTQ People's Rights

[MineralMan]

That even includes most religious folks apparently, according to a survey by the Public Religion Research Institute, as reported by another member who posted a link to:

https://religionnews.com/2019/03/12/survey-all-major-faith-groups-show-broad-support-for-lgbt-protection-laws/

That's similar to the percentage of people who are strongly committed to supporting Donald J. Trump. That's a lot of people, although there is no demonstrated correlation between the two groups.

Oddly enough, Pew Research, back in 2014, as reported here by another DUer, did a survey of atheists and found that 94% of them were supportive of LGBTQ people's rights. That, of course, means that 6% aren't supportive of those rights, which is deplorable of that 6%, in my opinion. Here's a link to the Pew research info:

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-family/atheist/views-about-homosexuality/

What's striking here is that five times+ fewer atheists surveyed were unsupportive than the general population and religious believers. The PPRI survey also showed that some evangelical Christians had much higher numbers of unsupportive people, which is not surprising, I suppose.

Five times more people in general don't support LGBTQ rights than atheists. 31% to 6%. Now, even 6% is too high a number, but when almost a third of Americans in general are unsupportive, that's a significant difference. At least, when it comes to atheists, you find five times fewer atheists who don't support LGBTQ rights.

No matter how you look at those statistics, that's a very significant difference. That says something about comparing atheists' attitudes on that matter with the general run of people, including those who are religious. Something significant.

[trotsky]

1. What a strange finding, huh?

I mean, considering I've seen it claimed that intolerance is a purely human characteristic and that religion is never a factor.

So odd.

[MineralMan]

3. I know. It's a shocking result from those surveys.

Percentage-wise, 500% more people in the general population don't support LGBTQ rights than among atheists. That says something about intolerance, I think. Maybe there is a difference in levels of intolerance between average people, including religious people, and atheists, who appear to be much more tolerant, percentage-wise, than the rest.

It seems pretty clear.

[marylandblue]

10. It helps that atheists don't have a book that recommends stoning homosexuals

I would never say though that believing in such a book might cause a few literalists to be at least marginally less favorable to homosexuals. Because people generally don't believe what they read anyway.

[Mariana]

14. To be fair

the book doesn't say that God recommends stoning homosexuals. The book says that God commands it.

[marylandblue]

16. Command is a metaphor. My kid doesn't take my commands literally either.

Also the stones were not real stones, they were sofa cushions.

[Iggo]

17. The comfy pillows?

NOOOOOOOOoooooooooo.....!

[marylandblue]

21. Yes the comfy pillows! Monty Python skits are really documentaries.

The Spanish Inquisition only used metaphorical and humorous tortures.

[Major Nikon]

8. We are also constantly reminded of how theists are so tolerant

So yeah, something isn’t adding up here. Where is the decider when you need him most?

[AJT]

2. All trumpsters I am guessing.

[MineralMan]

4. Well, I try not to judge, see, without specific data...

I'm just taking about statistics here. We have some pretty clear ones to look at, both supplied by fellow DUers and members of this group. But they don't correlate those data with trump supporters. the numbers are similar, but there may not be a correlation. Or there may. We just don't know for sure.

[redstateblues]

5. Trump's base

[MineralMan]

6. That could well be. And most of Trump's base is religious, too.

Maybe we could get Pew Research to do a survey to measure those things. That would be interesting.

[guillaumeb]

7. And in other news:

Should Society Accept Homosexuality?"
China ranks #24 out of 39 countries surveyed. (Source: Pew Research Center, June 4, 2013)
(57%) No

Yes (21%)

https://www.equaldex.com/region/china

Should Society Accept Homosexuality?"
China ranks #24 out of 39 countries surveyed. (Source: Pew Research Center, June 4, 2013)
(57%) No

Yes (21%)

There is much more at the link.

So, when comparing theists to atheists, what do we make of this fact that seems to undermine your argument?

[Major Nikon]

9. Yeah, whatabout China?

[marylandblue]

11. I honestly don't think anyone in this group is familiar enough with China or polling practices there

to analyze polling data from that country. To answer that we question, we'd need to know at least the following
- How the poll was conducted.
-What's a statistically valid sample for a diverse country of 1.4 billion people?
- Which of the many ethnic groups in China were included?
- Were they polled on their religious beliefs?
- If they were polled on religious beliefs, could they answer honestly?
- What was China's historical attitude towards homosexuality prior to contact with Western missionaries?
- How did those attitudes change in response to rapid social change in China starting from 1850 to the present?

These are all questions that any one of us can easily answer for the United States, so how about we confine our analysis to the country we are best qualified to study?

[guillaumeb]

18. Given that some here regularly give their opinons about theists everywhere,

I will accept that this is your suggestion.

[marylandblue]

19. Well this is the religion group, not the China group or the Communist group.

And we are in the United States talking on a US political website, so I would assume that when talking about religion "in general" most people here are talking about the dominant religion in the US, Christianity.

If you are familiar enough with Chinese religion and politics to offer some insight from that part of the world, that could be interesting. But you don't seem very familiar with China: you don't know any of the languages spoken there, don't know the history, don't seem to appreciate the ancient or modern non-theistic religions there, probably don't know exactly where the Silk Roads ran or why that might matter again, have no apparent awareness of the significance of Central Asia in world history and haven't displayed any knowledge of Marxist-Leninist-Maoist thought. Without that level of knowledge of this complex region, it's very hard to say what exactly China is an example of.

On the other hand, if you want to know what American atheists think, there are a few on this site you could talk to. That might give you more insight into atheism than guessing about a part of the world that is still rarely visited by Westerners and dangerous for reporters to work in.

[guillaumeb]

20. Talking with the atheists here might give me insight into those particular atheists.

But that does not necessarily translate into insight into atheists in general.

[marylandblue]

22. But you seem to think Chinese politics gives you insight

into something other than Chinese politics. I sense a pattern here.

[guillaumeb]

24. When humans in every country behave in the same way,

can we make broad assumptions about human behavior?

[marylandblue]

25. Humans behavior is astonishingly diverse.

If there is one thing obvious about human behavior it's that we DON'T all act the same way. You assume it all the time in your arguments, yet it's a manifestly incorrect statement. So, no, we CANNOT make broad assumptions about human behavior, nor can you assume that other people will agree with you on that.

[guillaumeb]

27. The diversity is superficial.

We are all motivated by the same needs.

We might speak different languages, or have a different form of government, but we are all humans and we react as humans.

[marylandblue]

28. "You ignore all distinctions as superficial, then make an even more superficial statement, like

"we are all humans and we react as humans," which might as well say,
"we are all vertebrates and we react as vertebrates."

Which makes humans no different from fish. And in a lot of ways we are like fish, but in a lot of ways we are not. You repeatedly ignore the differences, therefore you affirm the consequent that we are all the same.

Glub, glub.

[MineralMan]

29. Humans are capable, as individuals, of a wide range

of actions, behaviors, and emotions, even when faced with identical situations. We are not all alike, nor do we behave as if we were. We are not bees nor ants. Each of us has a unique personality and other attributes.

You, sir, are much different from me, as you are from every other person in this group. I cannot predict your reactions to stimuli, nor can you predict mine.

[guillaumeb]

30. However,

if any Government puts people in concentration camps for the crime of being Muslim theists, I will call that Government intolerant.

And if any Government puts people in prison for not being theists, I will call that Government in tolerant.

[MineralMan]

31. That does not have anything to do with my statement.

Nor this thread, which I started. It's irrelevant to both. Good day, sir!

[trotsky]

33. "we are all humans and we react as humans"

And yet overall, religious humans are more intolerant than non-religious humans.

Strange.

[trotsky]

32. #Whataboutism

You never responded here:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=309509

https://www.equaldex.com/surveys/pew-global-attitudes-on-homosexuality-2013

25. Russia - 16% accept homosexuality. Majority of the population is religious (Christians about 50%).
26. Lebanon - 18%. Majority religious. (54% Muslim, 41% Christian)
27. Turkey - 9%. Majority religious. (98% Muslim)
28. Malaysia - 9%. Majority religious. (61% Muslim, 20% Buddhist, 9% Christian)
29. Kenya - 8%. Majority religious. (85% Christian)
30. Pakistan - 2%. Majority religious. (95-98% Muslim)
31. Palestine - 4%. Majority religious. (80-85% Muslim)
32. Indonesia - 3%. Majority religious. (87% Muslim)
33. Egypt - 3%. Majority religious. (95% Muslim)
34. Uganda - 4%. Majority religious. (84% Christian, 14% Muslim)
35. Ghana - 3%. Majority religious. (71% Christian, 18% Muslim, 5% traditional)
36. Senegal - 3%. Majority religious. (94% Muslim)
37. Jordan - 3%. Majority religious. (93% Muslim)
38. Nigeria - 1%. Majority religious. (50% Muslim, 40% Christian)

Religious statistics pulled from Google ("<country name> religious demographics" ).

Please, go on screaming "whatabout China" and pretending that religion has nothing to do with intolerance. You're dead wrong and doing a great disservice toward ending intolerance.

[MineralMan]

34. But, those are inconvenient numbers, see.

So, never mind...

Or so it goes...

[LuvNewcastle]

12. I had to deal with that while growing up.

Countless times I heard people in church say that gay people were going to hell. When you're taught that the Bible is the word of God and when you hear often enough that gay people are evil and God hates them, you start to believe it. Then, when you grow up and finally realize that all those people who said those things were ignorant and didn't know what they were talking about, you have some antipathy toward people who believe those things. I realize that we have freedom of religion, and I believe in freedom of religion, but it seems wrong to me to allow people to teach such things to children. If there is a God(s) and if (s)he or it is fundamentally good, it seems to me that he wouldn't approve of telling gay children that they're evil and going to hell. Telling children such things is what it evil.

[Mariana]

13. Is God fundamentally good? That really is the big question.

If you believe that the God of the Bible is real, then that question remains to be answered: Is God good? Naturally, his worshipers say yes, but they are extremely biased and their judgment in this matter shouldn't be trusted. So, we can look at the source material most Christians use, the Bible. That is also very biased, since it was written and translated by worshipers, but it's what we have. The Bible stories generally don't portray God as good, not at all. For example, the Bible quite clearly supports the idea that gay children are evil and going to hell.

[LuvNewcastle]

15. The Bible is a mess.

A lot of it is taken by many to be literal, historical fact, but I think that most of it is allegorical or metaphorical. Paul says this in one of his letters, as a matter of fact, but most fundagelical Christians either aren't aware of it or they don't understand what Paul means. I'm not a Christian, although I do think that some of the teachings of Jesus are worth following. I'm sort of a Hindu in a lot of ways. If there is one God, why can't there be more? Never understood why there could only be one. No one ever explained that sufficiently to me.

I get what you're saying about God not being good, especially as portrayed in the Bible. If there's more than one God, I'm sure at least some of them are bad. I don't expect Gods to be perfect. But if I only believed in one God, I would expect her to be at least mostly good. Why should you worship something that isn't even as good as most humans?

[Mariana]

23. If there's only one god, there's no reason whatsoever

to jump to the conclusion that it must be at least mostly good. If there is one god, it's just as likely to be mostly evil. If a god exists and it's evil, I wouldn't worship it, even if I had good reason to believe it's real.

The idea that much of the Bible is metaphorical and allegorical is interesting, and it may even be true, but we always come back to the same question: How does one determine which parts to take literally, and which parts are fiction? We never seem to get a straight answer to that.

[SWBTATTReg]

26. Whatever society thinks is not the point...being LGBTQ has nothing to do with being accepted or ...

not, and most gays don't care whatever you accept us or not. It's what we believe in (ourselves), regardless of what ever anyone else feels. It always had to be that way before, for the fear was out there, everywhere, back then. You only dealt with other gay people and that was it. Nobody else, no family, no work companions, etc., nobody. That's why they have a saying 'in the closet'. There are still loads of gays 'in the closet' and always will be.

A lot of us grew up amid the constant spew of hate. You couldn't even say the word 'gay' in public almost, so being accepted or not by the rest of 'society' is kind of a moot point to gays/LBBTQ, don't get me wrong about being accepted, it is nice but not needed, after all, we did live in the 'desert' for 40 years before coming out (without the risk of literally being attacked or bashed, which is still a possibility today in some areas).