Some People Sometimes Do Wrong Things.

[MineralMan]

That is a true statement. It is, however, not an argument in favor of people doing wrong things. It is also not an argument for the idea that people can do nothing but wrong things. Further, it is not an excuse for doing wrong things. It is not an argument at all. It is simply a statement of fact.

Religions often lay out long lists of things that are wrong to do. They call such things sins. Societies, too, create lists of wrong things, and prohibit doing them. They call those prohibitions laws.

And yet, some people sometimes still do wrong things. They are wrong to do so. They are either violating some religious rule or some law. Those laws and rules are written down to help people know what are wrong things to do.

That some people continue to violate those rules does not mean that people in general do so. The rules exist to help people avoid doing wrong things. Most people follow those rules and laws. A few do not. Those few are not evidence that the rules don't work. They are only evidence that some people will do the wrong things. Some.

[Voltaire2]

1. Sin is mostly an abrahamic religious concept

Overlaying the word on concepts like karma in Hindu or Jain religions doesn’t really work. Buddhism mostly doesn’t go there at all. Although Buddhist theology is just as splintered as Abrahamist theology so there is likely something somewhere in Buddhist thought the looks like sin. Also nobody else has the moral baggage of original sin like Christians- they’ve made sin sinning and sinners the focus of their peculiar death cult.

[MineralMan]

2. Well, I qualified the religion statement with "often."

[Voltaire2]

3. I know. And religions often do provide lists

Of things not to do. But they might not have this “sin” thing going along with it.
And really it seems mostly to be Islam and Christianity that are obsessed with sin.

[MineralMan]

6. Well, I'm really aiming at a broader point with this.

If the dominant religion in a culture doesn't use the concept of sin, there are still the laws of that culture to define such things.

My real point is about the illogical nature of arguing something based on a limited fact by presenting as a general truth.

[Igel]

7. Not all Xians have the baggage of original sin.

However, pretty much every group has the idea of "here's the goal, and people miss it."

They also typically treat insiders differently from outsiders, but every sane group has a way of dealing with transgressors in some sort of hierarchical way. You kill, that's a bigger punishment than if you simply fail to do something that's largely ritualistic. But any culture that doesn't enforce norms so that they're internally simply stops being a culture, pretty much by definition. A culture is an internalized set of norms, with all the food and folkloric elements often just associated with the culture but tied to it indexically (like the word "no" is indexical for negative in English but "but" in Czech or possession in Japanese).


It's when you get to an insane group that every transgression seems to be the same, and there are no accepted ways to find forgiveness and absolution.

I will say, however, that I have met subgroups that had sharply divergent ideas of what was acceptable. In many cases, they were just waiting for the "injustice" of being arrested, but really didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing, however at odds it may be with social norms and conventions. Others are fairly passive, but still tend to think of smaller things as huge--sort of in the same way that in the Old Testament murder and sabbath breaking have the same punishment.

[Ferrets are Cool]

9. The bible is full of inconsistencies...

One passage indicates that all sins are equally bad:

James 2:10-11 English Standard Version
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

John 3:15 English Standard Version
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

But in other verses, it is taught that there are levels of sin:

When Jesus spoke of his second coming and judgment, he warned that among those deserving punishment some would “be beaten with many blows” and others “with few blows” (Luke 12:47-48). He also reserved His most fierce denunciations for the pride and unbelief of the religious leaders, not the sexually immoral (Matthew 23:13-36).

And then there is this:

Matthew 12:31-32 English Standard Version

Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

So, if you blaspheme against the Spirit, you may as well throw in the towel. Your just fucked.

And then there are those who will say that I just do not know how to interpret the verses.

[trotsky]

10. You caught that too, huh?

"an insane group that every transgression seems to be the same"

Someone isn't too familiar with the history of his religion, I guess.

[Ferrets are Cool]

11. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer

but, I can still slice butter.

[Ferrets are Cool]

4. I will disagree with you on ONE point...

Most people do NOT follow the rules and laws. Yes, most follow the MAJOR laws that would get them thrown into jail, but I drive on the roads, including interstates, every day. I do my best to drive the speed limit or no more than 2-3 miles over. I will estimate that 80% of the other vehicles on these same roads break the law by speeding (many by dangerous amounts), crossing solid yellow lines, not using their headlights when it is raining, running red lights...the list is almost endless.
You might say that these are minor rule violations, but people are KILLED daily by people breaking these rules.
Ok, off that soapbox.
Back on subject...One thing that bothers me the most about "christians" is that they break rules and they "sin" knowing they are doing so and yet continue to do so. Why? Because all they have to do is ASK for forgiveness. They point to the bible and can find any number of scriptures that tell them that forgiveness of their sins is unlimited. In other words, there is no penalty for sinning...as long as you "ask for forgiveness". That is quite an "OUT" if you ask me.

[MineralMan]

5. I'm not sure about that. I know we NOTICE those who don't

follow the traffic rules. I don't know that they are in the majority, though. I rarely see what drivers who aren't passing me are doing. They're behind me. I know that I try very hard to follow traffic laws. I think your 80% estimate is way high.

I remember the guy in the SUV going 50 mph in a 35 mph zone on a snow-covered road. I don't really remember the drivers who weren't doing such a dangerous thing. Really, most drivers that day were driving under the limit, maintaining good separation, and slowing down long before stop signs. I didn't really notice them, but I did notice the one guy in an SUV.

I remember the speeders on the freeway who blow past me far above the speed limit. I don't remember any of the drivers who didn't pass me as I drove along in the middle lane of a three-lane freeway.

[Ferrets are Cool]

8. I understand what you are saying...

But, I will stand by my unofficial numbers.

Small sample size, but still pertinent:

Those are the findings by researchers from Purdue University who surveyed nearly 1,000 motorists about speed limits and driving habits. They found that many drivers are cynical about the safety benefits of driving within speed limits, and many think they can drive safely while speeding as long as they won’t get caught, according to the report in Transportation Research Part F: Traffic Psychology and Behavior.
More than a third of the drivers in the survey thought it was safe to drive 20 m.p.h. over the speed limit. Overall, the vast majority of respondents said they thought it was safe to speed, with 79 percent saying it was safe to exceed the limit by 10 m.p.h. or more.


All this is unrelated to your OP though. More important is the hypocrisy of christians who "sin" repeatedly just because "forgiveness" is so convenient.