Catholic priests would have to report child sex abuse under proposed California law

[trotsky]

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article226530765.html

The Catholic seal of confession could lose its legal protection in California, at least as it concerns to knowledge of child abuse.

Sen. Jerry Hill, D-San Mateo, announced Wednesday that he is introducing a bill that would remove an exemption in the state’s “mandated reporter” law that allows all members of the clergy to withhold knowledge of suspected child abuse from law enforcement if that information is obtained during “a penitential communication,” such as Catholic confession.

“Individuals who harm children or are suspected of harming children must be reported so a timely investigation by law enforcement can occur,” Hill said in a statement announcing Senate Bill 360.

Doctors, police, therapists and social workers are among the 47 kinds of professionals who are required by state law to notify law enforcement about suspected abuse. Clergy also fall under that law, except if they learn about suspected abuse during a confession.

I know there are some on DU who have said they are "unsure" about whether priests should have to report the abuse of children.

I just don't know how one can be "unsure" about what to put first - religious dogma or the lives of innocent kids.

[stonecutter357]

1. K&R

[Cartoonist]

2. How will this work?

How will we know the abuse was confessed? The sinner won't talk, and if the priest doesn't, only god will know and he hasn't testified for centuries.

[Major Nikon]

7. Child rapists often do talk after they are caught

If they tell the police they told a priest and the priest didn't tell the cops, now they know the priest has committed a crime.

It's one more tool prosecutors will have to bust the RCC's culture of child rape. It's not as if they are going to do it.

[MineralMan]

3. Good. It's time to make the clergy follow the same rules as

Last edited Thu Feb 21, 2019, 02:13 PM - Edit history (1)

everyone else. No passes on the basis of religion. We are a secular country. Religious organizations are fully able to worship as they please, but they should not be free from the requirements of any laws. Any laws. Period. No clergy exemptions from their responsibilities as citizens.

[guillaumeb]

4. So if the abusers do not self-report,

and they rarely do, what will be the result?

[trotsky]

5. What does that have to do with anything?

I understand that you are "unsure" whether children should be protected from abuse by requiring priests to report. But I cannot understand your logic.

[Major Nikon]

9. The "logic" is there's a higher authority than secular laws

Which is to say no logic at all. It's really just about providing more cover for the RCC's culture of child rape.

The more states and countries that enact these mandatory reporting laws, the less the RCC will be able to sweep under the rug and the more they will be pressured to change their internal policies and positively affect their culture of child rape. Some are "unsure" as to whether the status quo is the preferred option.

[trotsky]

10. To be fair, I believe his logic is this:

* Catholic person rapes a child
* Catholic person wants to be a "good Catholic" and so goes and confesses the sin, seeking absolution. They KNOW the priest can't alert the authorities, but at least they can get that pesky sin off their conscience.
* Catholic person is free to rape again with zero consequences. (If they do, just repeat from the beginning.)

What gil is saying is that if priests can report (and Catholic child rapists know this), then it is likely that fewer Catholic child rapists will confess their sin in the first place.

So in the original situation, child rape occurs and NOTHING happens. Ever.

If priests are required to report what they are told in confessional, SOME rapists might be stopped. SOME children might be spared. But even if those numbers end up both being zero, we're certainly not any worse off than when we started. AND the Catholic child rapist will died unabsolved and burn in Catholic hell, meaning they must not have cared about the confessional crap to begin with.

As I said, I really don't understand the logic. Which means you're right - this is cover for the culture of rape, and it's also about religious privilege.

[Major Nikon]

11. Not even his logic

It’s just carrying water for the RCC’s “logic”, which is obviously self-serving.

[guillaumeb]

13. Another view, in this thread.

Cartoonist (4,664 posts)
2. How will this work?

How will we know the abuse was confessed? The sinner won't talk, and if the priest doesn't, only god will know and he hasn't testified for centuries.

So do you also disagree with cartoonist?

[trotsky]

46. Use your own words, g.

Cartoonist is making a point but you're missing it.

[guillaumeb]

47. You, and a few others, are making a point.

And we are not missing it.

[trotsky]

48. "We"? LMAO

OK, g. You run along now. LOL.

[marylandblue]

6. More often the victim reports it and is ignored. No more of that.

[guillaumeb]

14. Many times, as the Metoo movement shows,

the victim does not report it.

And, as Cartoonist also said:

Cartoonist (4,664 posts)
2. How will this work?

How will we know the abuse was confessed? The sinner won't talk, and if the priest doesn't, only god will know and he hasn't testified for centuries.

[marylandblue]

17. I don't get you often.

Seat belts save lives. Many times they don't. Therefore we shouldn't wear seat belts?

If a kid tells a teacher he's been abused, she has to report it. Since many kids don't say anything, and the abuser won't confess, and the teacher won't talk, how will we know the kid has been abused? Umm maybe because the kid DID tell a teacher this time, and the teacher will obey the law?

[guillaumeb]

20. The problem is predation.

Is this a solution for that problem? No, it is a reporting requirement that depends on the good faith of the offender to confess.

I support reporting requirements, but they depend, as I said, on either victims or offenders reporting abuse.

[marylandblue]

25. You don't seem to understand how mandatory reporting works.

Any reasonable suspicion must be reported. Inadvertent slips of the tongue. Stories that don't add up. Unexplained bruises or changes in behavior. Credible third party reports. Walking in on another priest with a half naked child. Children who innocently say "Father X said Jesus got naked with the disciples and we should do it too."

We made the decision a long time ago that all such things must be reported by teachers, doctors etc. However they got the information. That's not a question any more.

Why should priests get an exemption? That's a question you don't seem able to answer.

[guillaumeb]

26. I understand all of that.

But often, victims do not report abuse. And criminals rarely report that they have committed crimes.

So how do we change that behavior on the part of victims and criminals?

[marylandblue]

28. If you understood it, you would not answer that way.

Because most of the examples I provided did not require a confession or a victim report.

[guillaumeb]

29. We can agree to disagree. eom

[marylandblue]

30. Not really, you are throwing out red herrings. Here isevidence

Australian study find tha more substantiated cases of abuse got to CPS after new mandatory reporting law passed.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213416300655

[Major Nikon]

35. What's worse is he does understand

Which is why he chooses the path of obsfucation. He’s going to break his back carrying the RCC’s water.

[MineralMan]

37. Worse, when he gives the water to the RCC after carrying it,

they just dump it on the ground.

[Major Nikon]

8. When they are caught in their crime, they can and will be prosecuted

It's not hard to understand.

[guillaumeb]

15. It is that easy?

Cartoonist (4,664 posts)
2. How will this work?

How will we know the abuse was confessed? The sinner won't talk, and if the priest doesn't, only god will know and he hasn't testified for centuries.

Actual experience illustrates something different.

[marylandblue]

18. Actual experience is that people do confess abuse

https://keprtv.com/news/local/richland-man-confesses-to-molesting-young-girl

I suppose the police should have just sent this man away since there's a common belief that abusers don't confess.

[guillaumeb]

21. One person.One single person.

So what does this show?

[marylandblue]

23. It's not the only such story, it's just the first one I found

But a single counterexample, i. e. actual experience, is enough to show "they don't confess" is a false meme, and therefore not an argument against mandatory reporting.

[guillaumeb]

24. It is an argument against the efficacy of mandatory reporting.

Criminals rarely confess prior to being caught. And given that sexual predation is illegal in every state, it still continues.

[marylandblue]

27. So your position is that we should do away with mandatory reporting altogether?

[Major Nikon]

40. No, Gil is just against mandatory reporting for religious organizations

You know, the same ones who engage in massive international conspiracies of child rape and cover up.

Very telling that.

[Major Nikon]

39. How many child rapes must we allow, Gil?

You keep telling us this won't stop all child rapes and you keep obsessing over how effective you think this is.

So what I'd like to know is how many child rapes must we allow before the RCC must conform to the same laws which put a stop to other child rapists who aren't exempt from these laws like the RCC? Since you've put so much thought into this, surely you must have some number in your head.

[guillaumeb]

42. What should we want?

Zero cases of abuse.

What does history show us? Quite the opposite.

[Major Nikon]

43. You predictably didn't answer the question

Your rejection of a solution that holds the RCC accountable for decades of a culture of child rape is also quite predictable.

[guillaumeb]

44. I said zero cases.

So what do you see as a non-answer?

But I also pointed out that this is a universal problem, not confined to any one institution.

[Major Nikon]

45. You refused to answer my question

Instead you posed a different question and answered that instead. Try again. This time answer the question that was asked, not the one you asked of yourself.

And yeah, I get you want to obfuscate, but we are talking about this institution, so try to "focus".

[Major Nikon]

19. What "experience" are you talking about?

Are you once again just consulting the RCC who does have experience concealing child rape? Because you’ve already carried that water and I don’t really need to hear it again.

Meanwhile the “experience” of prosecutors and child advocacy groups tells us these laws are necessary for the welfare of children rather than the welfare of the RCC which you appear to have a greater concern for.

[guillaumeb]

22. Why Don't Child Sex Abuse Victims Tell?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/matter-personality/201210/why-dont-child-sex-abuse-victims-tell

Again, you seem to have missed the point that Cartoonist and I both made.

[Major Nikon]

31. Sometimes the abusers tell

And when they tell certain people those people have a legal obligation to tell the authorities. As desperate as you are to obsfucate, that’s what this is about.

Focus

[guillaumeb]

32. What percentage of abusers tell the authorities?

And how many are abused who never tell?

[Major Nikon]

33. Do you think it's going to be less than one?

[marylandblue]

34. A significant minority do tell

"30 percent of incest victims reveal their situations,"

We need to do everything we can to encourage them to come forward, make sure they are heard, and get them to a safe place. We can't help the ones we don't know about, but it seems strange not to do anything about those that do.

[Major Nikon]

36. It's even stranger when someone suggests we shouldn't

[MineralMan]

38. Some do and some don't. Given the RCCs attitudes on sinful behavior,

some percentage of victims confess their "sin" to their confessor. That, too, is never reported, under the current system. Many child victims of sexual abuse feel intense guilt, blaming what happened on themselves. This is often taught to them by their abuser. Some confess to another priest, who is bound not to reveal what he has learned.

Your point is not made.

Mandated reporters do not have to have actual proof of abuse. If they suspect abuse, they are supposed to report it and let the authorities investigate. I was once involved in such a situation. A 10-year-old girl who was a regular at a library where I volunteered exhibited some of the behaviors typical of sexual abuse victims. I reported what I had observed to the head librarian, who was a mandatory reporter. An investigation took place and the girl's abuser, her stepfather, was prosecuted. At the time, I was not considered a mandatory reporter, as a mere volunteer, but I often interacted with the children who used the library.

[Voltaire2]

12. Like a moth to a flame.

[guillaumeb]

16. Ah....yes.....of course.

[Major Nikon]

41. Kinda strange really

Anytime mandatory reporting for clergy is mentioned, one person here always rushes in to give us a sermon on why that's a bad idea. Meanwhile the extent to which the RCC has been for decades engaging in a massive conspiracy to conceal child rape on a biblical scale, the extent to which we don't even know yet.

At best it's tone deafness taken to a high art form. At worst it's child rape apologia.

[Bradical79]

49. I see zero downside -nt