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How is 'Jesus Son of God' different from sons of Greek gods? Ever hear sermon on this? (Original Post) bobbieinok Feb 2019 OP
Are we all "sons" of God? guillaumeb Feb 2019 #1
Define the divine... MineralMan Feb 2019 #2
To divine the divine is the work of a lifetime. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #3
Nah... MineralMan Feb 2019 #4
Your answer apparently "works" for you. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #5
Here we go..🙄 sprinkleeninow Feb 2019 #10
Many do not 'get it'. And they may never. no text sprinkleeninow Feb 2019 #11
Or, they put such obstacles in the way, guillaumeb Feb 2019 #19
Redefining God as beyond evidence, reason, proofs, .. Bretton Garcia Feb 2019 #28
IIRC there was a major debate in 80s? re validity of claims that can't be falsified bobbieinok Feb 2019 #31
Popper, Wittgenstein, Russell started it off? Bretton Garcia Feb 2019 #33
I think Hume did. marylandblue Feb 2019 #34
The Parable of the Invisible Gardener--John Wisdom, Antony Flew bobbieinok Feb 2019 #35
The crux for me? Bretton Garcia Feb 2019 #37
Or, an admission that human intelliegence is not capable of understanding? eom guillaumeb Feb 2019 #38
Or a willful embrace of ignorance, intellectual fatalism and laziness, as sacred Bretton Garcia Feb 2019 #39
Or an embrace of human intelligence as the substitute for a deity. eom guillaumeb Feb 2019 #40
Why would human intelligence substitute for a deity? marylandblue Feb 2019 #41
No evidence? MineralMan Feb 2019 #16
In your mind, you are indeed "correct". guillaumeb Feb 2019 #18
I thought that was the metaphorical part. (nt) NeoGreen Feb 2019 #22
Well done. eom guillaumeb Feb 2019 #23
In other words, you refuse to do so Major Nikon Feb 2019 #15
Each believer must do so. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #17
You were asked to define a word YOU used yourself as YOU define it, not "others" Major Nikon Feb 2019 #20
The creator, if you believe in such, naturally creates... Thomas Hurt Feb 2019 #6
Easy. Act_of_Reparation Feb 2019 #29
Or, if you have problems with spelling... MineralMan Feb 2019 #30
Nope. Voltaire2 Feb 2019 #13
He's more complex: LongtimeAZDem Feb 2019 #7
Pretty much sums it up. Ferrets are Cool Feb 2019 #8
Patti Smith: "Jesus died for somebody's sins, 3Hotdogs Feb 2019 #21
That's great! Glamrock Feb 2019 #26
jesus is Hercules plus a few other mix and match... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #9
Interesting. Thanks for link. bobbieinok Feb 2019 #12
That webpage is useless as scholarship struggle4progress Feb 2019 #25
Are we to suppose that the ... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #42
Genuine studies of cultural histories are interesting and informative. But struggle4progress Feb 2019 #43
I could say the same thing about anyone... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #44
Here is Richard Carrier on Graves: struggle4progress Feb 2019 #45
Ok, I get it... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #46
I like genuine scholarship, where actual facts lead to conclusions, struggle4progress Feb 2019 #47
So, does this mean I can assume you discount... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #49
I've been posting here at DU for fifteen years. In that time, struggle4progress Feb 2019 #50
Ok, good... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #53
The literalists take the view that the texts must be accepted as accurate accounts struggle4progress Feb 2019 #54
Agreed, and would add... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #55
The sons of Greek gods were generally demi-gods Major Nikon Feb 2019 #14
Could the Greek Gods be Nephilim? ... spin Feb 2019 #51
It is more subversive. The rulers often called themselves struggle4progress Feb 2019 #24
"A bit different, but not so very different" doesn't make for a long enough sermon RockRaven Feb 2019 #27
Zeus' kids knew how to party. Act_of_Reparation Feb 2019 #32
Yes, sermons heard. Igel Feb 2019 #36
*record scratch* trotsky Feb 2019 #48
"The NT strongly implies that Jesus pre-existed" Voltaire2 Feb 2019 #52

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
5. Your answer apparently "works" for you.
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 06:42 PM
Feb 2019

And you are welcome to it.

Check the Amazon site. They might have some books on the topic.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
10. Here we go..🙄
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 06:59 PM
Feb 2019

Guillaume,
Mon frère,
mon ami.
Je vous admire beaucoup.
La bonne Bon Bon.

[Ah caint hep mahself wit' them googly thingies.]

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
19. Or, they put such obstacles in the way,
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 07:36 PM
Feb 2019

that they cannot see it. Obstacles that they often create by not recognizing the limitations of human intelligence.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
28. Redefining God as beyond evidence, reason, proofs, ..
Mon Feb 18, 2019, 06:51 AM
Feb 2019

Is a pretty sly, slippery, Satanic trick. To try to slip away from numerous, constant empirical disproofs of the biblical God.

It's a trick that seems to work for a while. But in the end, most pay a very heavy but subtle price for it. The constant denegration of reason and science subtly cripples the intelligence of many ardent proponents. And cripples their material effectivess. Dooming billions to poverty.

bobbieinok

(12,858 posts)
31. IIRC there was a major debate in 80s? re validity of claims that can't be falsified
Mon Feb 18, 2019, 09:48 AM
Feb 2019

There was a big theological/philosophical back-and-forth.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
34. I think Hume did.
Mon Feb 18, 2019, 01:42 PM
Feb 2019

He was a radical empiricist. If it couldn't be verified empirically, it wasn't knowledge.

bobbieinok

(12,858 posts)
35. The Parable of the Invisible Gardener--John Wisdom, Antony Flew
Mon Feb 18, 2019, 02:04 PM
Feb 2019

I checked Wikipedia article.

As I recall, many took part in the discussion of various questions raised by the parable, and the discussion went on for several years.

I believe, from reading yrs ago, that the falsifiability demand goes back to Popper.

A Google search for the parable comes up with a source at Dartmouth.

For those who enjoy this kind of discussion, the various wiki and Google links could be interesting.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
37. The crux for me?
Mon Feb 18, 2019, 02:42 PM
Feb 2019

If something can't be shown to be true or false either, or if it has no definite observable results, then it is 1) moot. Or say, 2) useless. And 3) most probably false.

4) When promises of physical miracles failed, much of Christianity switched to promising only spiritual results, in our heads. But even the Bible warned there are many bad, false spirits, that delude our heads with illusions. 5) So we are not supposed to have so much faith; we are supposed "test the spirits" even. With "science" Dan. 1.4-15 KJE.

So the Christianity that stresses faith and spirituality is not ultimately biblical. And it is of course anti rational as well.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
41. Why would human intelligence substitute for a deity?
Mon Feb 18, 2019, 06:35 PM
Feb 2019

Nobody prays to human intelligence or thinks it created the universe. The most you can say is that some people think we are smart enough to think for ourselves. Not a god, just our most useful natural trait.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
20. You were asked to define a word YOU used yourself as YOU define it, not "others"
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 07:36 PM
Feb 2019

If you refuse to do so, then it can be safely assumed you were just speaking gibberish.

Thomas Hurt

(13,925 posts)
6. The creator, if you believe in such, naturally creates...
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 06:44 PM
Feb 2019

human beings also create, the arts, procreation, society, etc. Even with all its warts and disasters, that is the only thing I could consider divine under that little bit of theology.

Voltaire2

(14,703 posts)
13. Nope.
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 07:19 PM
Feb 2019

I’m certain my dad was not an immortal being.

It is a tenet of Christianity that this Jesus person was the literal, not metaphorical, son of the Abrahamic god(s).

NeoGreen

(4,033 posts)
9. jesus is Hercules plus a few other mix and match...
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 06:57 PM
Feb 2019

Last edited Sun Feb 17, 2019, 08:16 PM - Edit history (1)

..deity attributes.

For a more detailed summary of many of the historic 'sons of Ra' go to:

https://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/23737-cookie-cutter-christs


Cookie Cutter Christs

The story of Jesus was copied from earlier mythologies. It is cut from the same fabric as many other ancient superstitions. Following are nine of the more than 20 Savior/Sun gods who were said to be born of a virgin and sacrificed to save mankind.

Mithra
The birthday of Mithra, an ancient sun-god born of a virgin about 600 BC, was celebrated on December 25. Magi brought gifts to his birth. His first worshippers were shepherds and he was followed in his travels by 12 companions. Mithra was slain upon a cross in Persia to make atonement for humankind and take away the sins of the world. His ascension to heaven was celebrated at the spring equinox (Easter).


There is a lot more at the link.

struggle4progress

(120,245 posts)
25. That webpage is useless as scholarship
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 11:38 PM
Feb 2019

For example, I have never seen any Buddhist text teaching that Buddha was crucified, descended into hell for three days, and then ascended into heaven. The Mahaparinibbana sutra, for example, makes it sound as if Buddha died after several days of food poisoning

Much of the nonsense on the FFRF webpage you link probably comes from the Kersey Graves silly book, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors

Graves once saw a statue of Krishna with a hole in his foot and concluded that Krishna had been crucified -- although the Mahabharata contains a story that a hunter shot Krishna in the foot with an arrow

Graves says of Osiris: Osiris appeared on earth to benefit mankind, and .. by rising from the dead, after being crucified, he became the judge of mankind in a future state. But in the actual Egyptian story, Osiris was a ruler, murdered by his brother Set, whoicast his dismembered body into the Nile, from which place his widow Isis retrieved and temporarily reanimated most of his his body so she could become pregnant, although afterwards the green-skinned Osiris was described only as the ruler of the land of the dead.

NeoGreen

(4,033 posts)
42. Are we to suppose that the ...
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 10:57 AM
Feb 2019

...the bible is a credible document for historical accuracy of who was or wasn't crucified and/or other documented magical events?

If so, then there isn't much reason to continue a discussion.

The bible is a book of fiction, there is no point in participating in a discussion of it's factual value.

struggle4progress

(120,245 posts)
43. Genuine studies of cultural histories are interesting and informative. But
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 01:40 PM
Feb 2019

the nonsense written by Kersey Graves and similar authors provide us nothing useful; and I cannot really understand why you would promote such garbage

NeoGreen

(4,033 posts)
44. I could say the same thing about anyone...
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 02:52 PM
Feb 2019

...who treats the bible as historical, informative and/or useful (in a positive sense).

However, the supposition that jesus is merely an amalgamation of magical attributes and associated miracles gleaned from historic fictional figures is supported by a preponderance of the narrative similarities between them (i.e. Mithra, Hercules, Horus, Attis, and Adonis) and what is written in the text of the bible.

Your ability to provide apparent criticism of a few elements of comparisons, provided within the ffrf non-track references, is notwithstanding. Graves names 16 crucified saviors, you provided criticism of only the comparison (i.e. Krishna). Then you jump to the broad dismissal that "Graves and similar authors provide us nothing useful", all the while apparently supporting narratives from the bible as true? Wow.

It should be noted that not all of the attributes of each of these historical fictional figures were applied to the fictional jesus. That is not the claim. Finding individual elements that don't match the separate jesus narrative isn't valid criticism.

The "Nothing Useful" tagline truly should be applied to the bible as a whole.
It maybe historically significant (can't get the full gist of Shakespeare without a passing knowledge of the bible) but as a stand-alone document it provides almost nothing useful to the human condition.

The bible is the fictional story that should be earnestly labeled as garbage.

struggle4progress

(120,245 posts)
45. Here is Richard Carrier on Graves:
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 03:12 PM
Feb 2019
All too frequently I run into hacks inordinately fond of quoting obsolete historical scholarship ... Graves shouldn't even be read, much less cited ...
http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2007/04/history-before-1950.html

NeoGreen

(4,033 posts)
46. Ok, I get it...
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 03:38 PM
Feb 2019

...you discount Graves.

It still dosen't alter validity of the general comparison and overlapping attributes between jesus and multiple religious fictional characters created throughout the history more than one iota.

The end result is the same: religious fictional characters share the same old tropes.

struggle4progress

(120,245 posts)
47. I like genuine scholarship, where actual facts lead to conclusions,
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 03:55 PM
Feb 2019

as opposed to ax-grinding, where the "facts" are derived from the desired conclusions

Actual cultural histories are fascinating and informative: it seems likely that many ideas have long and complicated pedigrees, evolving in multiple transfers

It's interesting to try to sort out actual details, and to try to understand what we have learned from that process

"Facts" derived from prechosen conclusions, and deductions from such "facts," are without interest

struggle4progress

(120,245 posts)
50. I've been posting here at DU for fifteen years. In that time,
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 05:10 PM
Feb 2019

I have never suggested that the texts in the Jewish or Christian bibles should be regarded as scientific texts or careful historical accounts. In fact, biblical literalists very seldom post on DU

If you don't like the texts in the Jewish or Christian bibles, that's fine with me. If you want to provide interesting perspectives using genuine scholarship to help us understand cultural history, that's fine with me too. But why link to idiotic garbage like that Kersey Graves inspired FFRF page?

NeoGreen

(4,033 posts)
53. Ok, good...
Thu Feb 21, 2019, 08:03 AM
Feb 2019

you don't take the texts in the Jewish or Christian bibles as scientific texts or careful historical accounts.

Then why are you arguing against Graves if the historicity of the four crucifixion narratives in the new testaments can be discounted as fiction?

Why so much energy discounting someones apparent error in reconciling/comparing accounts in fictional texts?

struggle4progress

(120,245 posts)
54. The literalists take the view that the texts must be accepted as accurate accounts
Thu Feb 21, 2019, 12:48 PM
Feb 2019

of whatever they relate. I can't make sense of that view: it doesn't seem to me helpful for reading the texts or for any other purpose

You seem to take a fun-house mirror approach to the literalists' view, namely, that the texts cannot contain anything that might be helpful or informative in any way -- and then because Graves, if he were right, seems to you to discredit the texts, you apparently conclude that we should all accept the nonsense Graves promoted

The notion that cultural ideas and mythologies have long complicated histories, involving appropriation and transformation of elements from earlier and even external cultures can be a useful guide in investigation, but it's not a substitute for careful work

NeoGreen

(4,033 posts)
55. Agreed, and would add...
Thu Feb 21, 2019, 03:53 PM
Feb 2019

...the primary focus of my criticism is upon the literalist's idea that the magic related in any of these stories is real, should be revered and can not be questioned.

There may be some subtle narrative on morality to be gleaned from some of the stories in these historic religious tracks, but it is overwhelmed and destroyed by the literalist's fervor.

My secondary focus is on those who provide a modicum of cover for the literalist's ideas by providing support (let's call it material support to keep with the current vernacular) to those same institutions where the literalist acquires and foments his bad ideas.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
14. The sons of Greek gods were generally demi-gods
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 07:27 PM
Feb 2019

The Jewish phrase "son of god" during the time of Jesus meant something entirely different than what modern Christians think it means today.

spin

(17,493 posts)
51. Could the Greek Gods be Nephilim? ...
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 05:18 PM
Feb 2019

Nephilim


The Nephilim /ˈnɛfɪˌlɪm/ (Hebrew: נְפִילִים‬, nefilim) were the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" before the Deluge, according to Genesis 6:1-4.

A similar or identical biblical Hebrew term, read as "Nephilim" by some scholars, or as the word "fallen" by others, appears in Ezekiel 32:27.[1][2]

When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. Then the Lord said, "My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown. (emphasis added)

— Genesis 6:1–4, New Revised Standard Version
The word is loosely translated as giants in some Bibles and left untranslated in others. The "sons of God" have been interpreted as fallen angels in some traditional Jewish explanations.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

struggle4progress

(120,245 posts)
24. It is more subversive. The rulers often called themselves
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 09:10 PM
Feb 2019

the sons of the gods

When Octavian became Augustus Caesar, he was called Divi filius -- the son of god

But Jesus was a poor man, executed as a criminal in the most ignoble manner possible: a method usually used only for slaves

To say "This was the Son of God!" defied the accepted social order

RockRaven

(16,269 posts)
27. "A bit different, but not so very different" doesn't make for a long enough sermon
Sun Feb 17, 2019, 11:52 PM
Feb 2019

by the standards of most priests and preachers I've heard...

Igel

(36,082 posts)
36. Yes, sermons heard.
Mon Feb 18, 2019, 02:28 PM
Feb 2019

Mostly from atheists, who didn't call their exhortations with prooftexting "sermons" but could have.

Bits and pieces elsewhere, on how knowing the game plan ahead of time allowed the devil to have a bunch of fake mock-ups ready.

But there are differences. The NT strongly implies that Jesus pre-existed; demi-gods didn't pre-exist their human incarnation.

Demi-gods also had a tendency not to see eye to eye with daddy (or mommy).

And the Greeks overall didn't have "expiation" or some sense of divine righteousness that wasn't fairly whimsical. Different philosophical system entirely, and as was known in 100 BC, rather hostile to each other.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
48. *record scratch*
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 04:11 PM
Feb 2019
Bits and pieces elsewhere, on how knowing the game plan ahead of time allowed the devil to have a bunch of fake mock-ups ready.


Wait - do you actually believe in a literal devil? Really?

Voltaire2

(14,703 posts)
52. "The NT strongly implies that Jesus pre-existed"
Tue Feb 19, 2019, 07:06 PM
Feb 2019

I'm pretty sure the first three centuries of christian history were full of christians killing other christians over this and other "true nature of christ" theological gobbledygook.

Oh I had to go look it up again, the murdering around Arianism went on for quite a while. So your assertion that the NT "strongly implies" the trinitarian view is valid only because for 1700 years the trinitarians have been drilling the orthodox perspective into the heads of their flocks. A more objective opinion is that the NT says nothing of the sort.

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