When is hearing voices a delusion and when is it religion?

[Soph0571]

Have you heard the old joke?

When you talk to God, we call it prayer, but when God talks to you, we call it schizophrenia.

Joan of Arc had God speak to her. She went down in history.

Conservative politicians all claim that they make decisions based on conversations they have with God. They may well also go down in history, but not for the same reasons as Joan of Arc.

Peter heard God talk to him on the road to Damascus. Based on how he then twisted Christ’s teachings to suit his own interpretation of the what he wanted Christianity to look, one might wonder if he was following Gods instruction or listening to his own ego? Not sure he was mad, maybe just bad?

So, what determines who is speaking to God? Or who is speaking to the little people who live inside one’s head? I suppose in some ways it really does not matter, unless of course one is listening to the voices inside one’s head and using it to try and determine public policy. Then we get to ask the question: When is hearing voices a delusion and when is it religion?

So, does this mean the people who rule you are delusional? Logic 101... hehe

[procon]

1. Is there a difference?

Claims of religious mysticism is a threadbare blanket that is used to hide any number of mental health issues and excuse antisocial behaviors.

[Major Nikon]

2. No

Anyone who claims a supernatural being is giving them instruction is either dishonest or delusional.

[MineralMan]

3. What's the difference? Does it matter?

I have never heard a "voice" in my head. Sometimes I rehearse conversations I might have, silently, but the voices are all clearly just thoughts. I would never confuse them with hearing an actual voice.

Sometimes I dream of people talking to me. Occasionally, I wake up thinking that my wife spoke to me. She didn't. She's lying there asleep.

But, I never "hear voices." If I did, I'd be very concerned and probably talk to my doctor about it.

If you're confused between your own thoughts and things you think people are saying inside your head, Occam's Razor suggests that you're not actually hearing someone's voice at all. It all came from your own thoughts, one way or another.

So, hearing "God's voice" in your head is a delusion, just as much as hearing any other voice in your head is a delusion, if you think it came from an external source. Religion is no different. Delusions are delusions.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

4. Those who believe that "God" speaks, or has spoken to certain people

are making a leap that has no basis in reality. None whatsoever, other than pure faith and willingness to believe. If the person who hears the voices then gets a lot of people to go along with their interpretation, then voila! A new religion is born.

This is also why a lot of religious people completely misunderstand science and the need to prove something is real, or exists, or the medicine is effective, and so on. From a very early age they hear all this stuff about faith and belief and the will of god and all of the other things that go into a religion, with absolutely NOTHING backing up any of that stuff. Then, somewhere in school, some teacher tries to lead them along the path of rationality and the scientific method and it's so far from what they've been told so far that they can't quite get it.

To believe you are speaking to god or that god is speaking to you involves a certain degree of narcissism. God really can take time out from his busy day to talk to you?

[Runningdawg]

5. It's simple really

If you go to the same church as the person making the claim God is speaking to them, it's true.
If they don't go to your church, they are evil.
Unless you are Trump. God sent Trump as his last prophet and you should follow all his orders.

[Docreed2003]

6. Just for clarification...

It was Paul, not Peter on the Damascus road....

[sprinkleeninow]

9. ---

[marylandblue]

7. Many prophets and saints were mentally ill

So were many artists, scientists and leaders. If people liked what they said and how they said it we rewarded them. If they didn't like it, they locked them up. Today we have medication for some things, but there are still a lot of crazy people, making compelling visions for.the rest of us to admire or use.

[sprinkleeninow]

8. I'm disappointed...😔

[marylandblue]

11. No reason to be. I consider insanity to be a virtue.

Normalcy is overrated. Progress comes from those who are apart from the crowd.

[sprinkleeninow]

12. Disappointment that you in agreement with "coupling mental disorder with being a 'religionist".

Yeah, what is 'normal'?

What if someone is kookalicious? Quirky? Inna loveable and not annoying sorta way?

And a religionist to boot?

Can that be?

[marylandblue]

22. Sure, that can be. And my comments weren't meant to disparage religion.

They are more meant to consider what is "normal" or even what is "rational." We are quirky creatures. Atheists may protest this, but they aren't necessarily more rational than religionists. I better hide now.

[sprinkleeninow]

24. Rational. Key word. Yes, many who purportedly call and believe themselves to be

followers of Christ have indeed, uhm, adulterated the theology.

So then they use parts of Holy Scripture to support, align, condone their behavior as been more readily witnessed now.

I have not one thing agin you in any way, shape or form. I do consider all your words in expressing yourself here. 💙

[sprinkleeninow]

13. Can you name a beatified Eastern Orthodox 'Saint' that is/was considered mentally ill.

[marylandblue]

14. Well, since I can't name any Eastern Orthodox Saints, that would be no.

I doubt any of them were considered mentally ill in their time, so I'd probably have to read their biographies or writings and take a wild guess.

In the Bible, the Psalmist seems bipolar, he often sounds depressed or ecstatic, even in a single psalm.

Some of the prophets hear things or see things they find distressing and try to escape from. Very much like schizophrenia.

Paul experiencing blindness on the road to Damascus matches a thing called conversion disorder.

Turning this around a bit, how do we know that some mentally ill people today are not contacting a higher plane, but are unable to mentally process what they see there?

[sprinkleeninow]

17. Your last para.

That 'could' be possible.

But then, in your determination, a person practicing 'Christianity' who 'hears' and 'sees' things with their spiritual ears and eyes is whack?

I 'hear' things and 'see' things in my 'spirit' that come true. A lot. Not immediately, but eventually.

And no, I don't hear actual voices! Sheesh.

Like the stuff that comes to me going into this room of religion.

[marylandblue]

18. In the context of Christian culture, seeing and hearing things "in the spirit" is perfectly normal

It's how you express your spiritual experience.

But I think a lot of people on the extreme end of human performance do have mental illnesses, or sometimes it runs in their families. There has been research that confirms this.

I've dealt a lot with mental illness in my own family, so in my world it is no kind of insult. Our culture allows negative stereotypes and jokes about the mental ill that we don't allow for any other group, and certainly not the physically ill.

My opinion that Paul may have had a mental illness is no more of an insult to him or his achievements than my opinion that Isaac Newton may have had autism or Winston Churchill may have had bipolar disorder. I know people with both of those things and see the parallels in their lives. And I think their possible mental illnesses could have contributed to their achievements because it allowed them to see things in a different way.

[sprinkleeninow]

19. You opine that St. Paul was afflicted with a mental disorder.

What. Bc he was knocked over and blinded by 'light'?

This vignette could very well be taken non-literally.

Just sayin'...

[marylandblue]

20. Sure, it could be non-literal or nothing at all to do with mental illness.

The ancient Greeks had a concept of "divine madness," so the episode could have been meant to follow that tradition.

[sprinkleeninow]

21. I want to say, "Oh, for God's sake!"

But you do not adhere to that.

Whattabout if 'GOD' had planned all this to lead up to Him? To prepare people for or condition them, if you will, to the idea/ reality of Him?

This in reverse of Mithra, etc. stuff. Notice I dint say 'nonsense' considering He allowed before Christ foreshadowing.

I just ordered a book. From my favorite monastery. I need an assist with this.

Said this b4, I did not participate in any debating clubs in university.

Youse guys and womens are too savvy for me. ☺

[marylandblue]

23. Well I think religion does draw on what came before, so sure, why not.

The stuff about Mithra seems to be bad scholarship. But other things in Christianity are more clearly based on Jewish (of course) or Greek themes. If you think this was by Divine guidance, I can't prove it isn't.

[sprinkleeninow]

25. That word 'think'. I feel more like I'm 'comfortable' with that

which is what our Faith teaches.

I have no concrete 'proof' or the type of 'evidence' some insist upon that God exists or that Christ is now in glorified and resurrected physical form.

I simply cannot disavow or discard the Faith I voluntarily attempt to represent all these decades.

[uriel1972]

29. There was a doctrine put about within the early Roman Church...

That all the 'Sons of God' born on or about the 25th of December to virgins in poor circumstances were planned by Satan to undermine the "True" Messiah the Son of God born on or about the 25th of December to a virgin in poor circumstances.

Truth to be told in the Ancient world, you couldn't throw a rock and not hit a Son of God born on... etc.

[sprinkleeninow]

30. And the Feast of the Nativity was and still is in some Old Calendar Churches

celebrated on 07 January according to the Julian Calendar.

[uriel1972]

31. "on or about"...

[sprinkleeninow]

32. I'm not going to look up exactly what you are referring to.

The date of this RC 'doctrine'.

This another one 'explanation' of basis of The Incarnation.

BTW, I know really scant about Roman Rite theology and practices.

We communicate as Eastern Orthodox.

[Bretton Garcia]

10. Typo: Paul ... Damascus

[MarvinGardens]

15. It depends.

If what you hear from "God" is in general agreement with what your social/religious group already thinks, it's from God. If it's radically different, it's a delusion and you'll be ostracized.

Years ago I heard an NPR story about a pastor of a large church who had a revelation allegedly from God: Jesus died to save everyone, not just Christians. The pastor lost most of his parishoners. It wasn't what they wanted to hear.

[trotsky]

16. I am reminded of this quote from Sam Harris about George W. Bush:

“The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.”

[Act_of_Reparation]

26. As per usual, Sam is wrong on this one.

If we found out the President of the United States was talking to god through a hairdryer, the GOP would nominate him for a second term just to "pwn the libtards".

[Major Nikon]

27. The voices inside my head always did say Shrub was crazy

Maybe there's something to that.

[uriel1972]

28. I hear voices occasionally...

disjointed fragments of sentences. I have a mental illness or two and am well aware how easily psychosis can take hold of your entire worldview.

I worry about how people who are "normal" do things I consider crazy, not because they speak directly to God, but because they are told by their preachers and other members of that community. It seems it is true that, "There is no thing a crazy person can do that can't be done by a sane person who believes."

I will go so far to include all people who believe in an "Ideal" be it heaven, a worker's paradise or capitalism. Ideals tend to encourage those who feel that the perfect "End" justifies any means (looking at you American Exceptionalism).

So before anyone goes on about Stalin, please note that there are political and cultural entities that operate as religions without god/s. Communist Russia being one example with Party Hierarchy taking the place of priests.

Let's not leave the Nazi's out of it either. Whilst you might be able to argue that a few members of the upper echelons were not religious, the vast bulk of the Nazi party and the German population believed themselves to be good Christians doing the Lord's work.

Carry on