MLK Day 2019- A Reminder of Islamic Teachings on Racism and Diversity

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white – except by piety and good action- Hadith of Prophet Muhammad

To read more:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/askamuslim/2019/01/mlk-day-2019-a-reminder-of-islamic-teachings-on-racism-and-diversity/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Muslim&utm_content=49

No matter how many times we fall short, we must try again.

[MineralMan]

1. Another teaching honored more in the breach than in the observance.

Religious teachings are like that, it seems, for most people. Bigotry and racism in the name of religion is quite common. In that, religion is no different than other cultural practices.

Religion has been used both to justify slavery and to do battle against slavery. Religion has been used to both respect others and to disrespect others. It is no better than non-religion, since it's all a matter of interpretation of its own teachings.

[guillaumeb]

7. What do you expect of humans?

No matter their beliefs, or their positions, they often fall short.

[MineralMan]

9. Why do you think I expect anything from humans?

I look at each one individually, to see how they behave. One thing I can guarantee is that religion plays very little role in that, based on more than half a century of observation as an adult.

Admonitions in scripture have little effect on human behavior. Nor does teaching in churches, and even there, what is taught is often at odds with what is written, regardless of religion.

[guillaumeb]

10. People do what they feel they can, or must, do.

And justify it with patriotism, or religion, or ideology.

[MineralMan]

11. And are they right to do so, guillaumeb?

Apparently, all three lead people astray and justify their wrongdoings. Proof texts abound in all three.

None of those three things are any assurance that those who follow them will do the right thing. So, I ask you, of what use are they? Of what value are they to human cultures and societies. I think they are of no value at all, in the end.

People are what they have evolved to be and have been taught to be. Individuals carry with them both genetic and social aspects. Which of those aspects they make their priorities or habits are what determines how they will behave.

Religion has no intrinsic value for good, any more than for bad. It is merely another expression of human nature. More evidence for it not being of some sort of divine origin, but rather a product of the human mind.

[guillaumeb]

13. Religion is one expression of tribalism.

As is intolerance for the other.

[MineralMan]

14. That, Guy, is not an answer.

As expected.

[guillaumeb]

16. But it is.

I understand your desire to frame things in the way that you want them to be framed, but life is far more complex than that.

[trotsky]

20. "I understand your desire to frame things in the way that you want them to be framed"

[guillaumeb]

22. Is that your personal indicator?

I agree.

[MineralMan]

37. ..

[trotsky]

2. Some teachings are great indeed.

Some are very far from great.

Both are in the Koran and in Islam's history.

And both have support from people who identify as Muslim.

So there we are. If you want to promote the good, you can't ignore the bad, because both are equally valid interpretations.

[Major Nikon]

3. 11th Commandment!

argle-bargle!

[trotsky]

4. How dare I post an opinion that is less-than-flattering about religion?

AIYEEEEEEEE!!!

[Major Nikon]

5. Because you're part of the "intolerant" "choir" obviously

Don't forget the meetup is tonight, BTW, at the Church of the Sacred Bleeding Heart of Jesus,
located somewhere in Los Angeles, California.

[Act_of_Reparation]

8. "Church of the Sacred Bleeding Heart of Jesus"...

You mean the In-and-Out on Olympic?

[MineralMan]

12. Yes. During which we will read the Bible verses from the bottoms of

the sacred cups, bags and wrappings. We shall partake of the Double-Double Animal Style burger in remembrance of something or other.

[Major Nikon]

15. We can't meet at the In-and-Out anymore

Last week someone threatened to call the health dept over the cups that had 2 Kings 18:27 on them.

Not sure if the lifetime ban goes for all of us at all locations, but best to wait till those folks turn the other cheek.

[Act_of_Reparation]

18. Los Primos, then?

I'll settle for Rubios, but no way in hell will I step into an El Pollo Loco ever again.

[Major Nikon]

36. Los Pollos Hermanos has a bigger room

Not sure why we stopped going there.

[guillaumeb]

17. I do wish to promote the good,

and to work against the bad. But the fight is also against human nature.

[trotsky]

19. The fact that you used "also" is a huge breakthrough.

You admit religion is at least partially to blame for the bad. This is progress.

[guillaumeb]

21. Humans are to blame. eom

[trotsky]

23. And the step is walked back.

I knew it was wrong to be optimistic.

[guillaumeb]

24. Better to be realistic and optimistic.

Realize that, or fall into the error of blaming words rather than human behavior.

[trotsky]

28. When the words specifically command or endorse bad things...

and they occur in a book which is purported to be the word of a god...

then yes, the words share some of the blame.

It is sad that you cannot accept this, but yet at the same time are so eager to credit religion when people do good things in its name.

The double standard is clear. You believe religion is absolutely blameless for the bad things, but gets all the credit for the good.

[guillaumeb]

29. One thing is clear. Your framing. eom

[trotsky]

31. Words can inspire good deeds, and they can inspire bad deeds.

I acknowledge that both can happen.

You believe only one can happen when it comes to religion.

That is my "framing." Please tell me how it is wrong.

[guillaumeb]

33. I agree with your first statement.

And your second.

Your third is mis-framing, as my many "bad news" posts prove.

[trotsky]

34. Do you or do you not believe that religion can inspire bad behavior?

Clear up my confusion.

Choose an answer:

A) "Yes, I believe religion can inspire bad behavior."

or

B) "No, I don't believe religion can inspire bad behavior."

[guillaumeb]

40. People can claim motivation from religion.

That is obvious.

[Lordquinton]

42. Interesting framing.

[guillaumeb]

43. Because it does not fit with your preferred faming?

Understood. But understanding what motivates people can be complex.

[Lordquinton]

44. Is that why you are always disregarding people's posts based on framing?

Because it challenges your own preferred framing? Interesting...

[guillaumeb]

45. Only when the framing is too obvious.

Framing belongs inside the walls of an argument.

[Lordquinton]

46. So it's justified when you do it

But anyone else is breaking whatever commandment you pulled out of you ass this morning. I understand.

[marylandblue]

49. You have the most simple understanding of motivation I have ever seen

You explain almost everything by
1) humans are humans
2) tribalism
3) intolerance.

Did I leave anything out? Excuse me, I have to go tolerate my wife now.

[guillaumeb]

51. Basic observations are not invalidated because they are true.

Last edited Thu Jan 24, 2019, 02:53 PM - Edit history (1)

And ignoring the obvious leads to faulty logic.

A question: would you tell your wife that you are going to "tolerate her"?

If so, you are far braver than I am.

[Act_of_Reparation]

52. Nope.

They are invalidated by their being anecdotal dogshit.

[guillaumeb]

53. Like the many"anecdotal" posts that are posted here

in an effort to make a point?

And there are so many such posts. So very many.

I understand that my observations, observations of tactics going back to 2014, make some uncomfortable. But when one posts on an open board, one should expect that all posts will serve as a record.

[Act_of_Reparation]

54. Yes, like those.

And you're free to reject them outright as well if that's your fancy.

[marylandblue]

57. Pointing out the obvious can be used as obfuscation

Perhaps this is not obvious to you?

As for my wife, I always tell her how much I tolerate her, since I learned here that almost all problems are caused by intolerance. She does sometimes refuse to speak to me when I say that, so I explain that she is being intolerant which is no different than sending me to a Chinese re-education camp. Then she wants to send me to husband re-education camp, so you can see how humans always just act like humans, and due to intolerance, always want to send others to re-education camps. I managed to avoid going by explaining that sending me to a re-education camp will not end all cases of bad husbands. She then she suggested I buy her flowers, but I pointed out that flowers die, so her logic was faulty.

So yes, it would be good if you tolerated your wife, but I accept that you are human and humans are intolerant.

Just in case you don't see the obvious:

[guillaumeb]

58. Very brave.

Far braver than I would be.

Flowers do die, but chocolates always taste good, so I give my wife chocolate.
And, she shares.

[marylandblue]

59. Well, as is obvious, I've mixed a bunch of obvious and non-obvious

observations that ends up totally missing the point of what a good husband ought to do, never addressing the real thing I missed. You do that a lot on this forum. Since you are still married, I assume you do not do this with your wife. Why do you do it here?

[guillaumeb]

60. My wife and I have conversations based on the knowledge

that we engage with each other in good faith.

But if a person mis-frames or misunderstands a post as "child rape apologia" when that is clearly not the case, I might wonder about the good faith aspect of the interaction.

Or if some few people constantly display the same attack tactics toward theists posting here, I might wonder again.

Or if some few insist that theism demonstrates a lack of intellect, I might wonder at that also.

So good faith requires certain behaviors. And good faith discussion requires the same behaviors.

[marylandblue]

61. There is nothing to wonder about, they disagree with you, that's all

If they think theism is stupid, that's not bad faith. That's an opinion. If they find certain things to be "child rape apologia" that's also an opinion. It is an inflammatory opinion on a sensitive topic, but still not bad faith. If people repeatedly make the same arguments over and over, well, people are people. They can only act like themselves. Not bad faith either.

Good faith discussion requires only the assumption that the other party is giving you their honest opinion. There is no other requirement. Disagreement or distaste for their tactics does not in any way imply bad faith.

[trotsky]

48. So your answer is B.

Just as I figured. You don't believe religion can ever inspire bad behavior. Thank you for establishing your bias for all to see.

[Act_of_Reparation]

6. Yep, according the Koran, everyone is equal...

...as long as they are Muslims... and men.

[guillaumeb]

25. An interesting assertion.

And this:

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white – except by piety and good action- Hadith of Prophet Muhammad

somehow proves your point?

[Act_of_Reparation]

26. Gosh.

The words except by piety and good action. Think on it a little bit. It'll eventually make sense.

Of course, there are other parts of the book where Mohammed explicitly mentions the worth of women, and how Muslims should interact with non-Muslims. Which is a funny thing to do if you think everyone is equal.

OR HAS I TAKEN THAT TOOK LITURALLY?

[guillaumeb]

27. I suggest that you think a bit more.

Or lay out your reasoning that led you to this point.

[Act_of_Reparation]

30. I suggest I don't.

I suggest you have no intention of conversing in good faith. I suggest I make a sandwhich instead.

That's a good suggestion. I'm gonna make a sandwich instead.

[guillaumeb]

32. Falafel.

An excellent sandwich.

[Act_of_Reparation]

35. Shawarma

Falafel is fried. Not good for the heart.

[guillaumeb]

41. I do not eat meat.

If not falafel, how about egg salad?

[Act_of_Reparation]

47. The Lebanese make a delightful sauteed eggplant.

Along with roasted potatoes, rice pilaf, and fattoush salad... now you've gone and made me hungry.

[guillaumeb]

50. There is a restaurant near us that makes a very good marinated eggplant.

It is great on pita, and the saffron rice is great on the side.

[trotsky]

38. "except by piety and good action"

You really don't ever read what you post, do you? Thanks, I guess. Makes it easier to point and laugh at you for directly contradicting what you think you're trying to say.

[Major Nikon]

39. This somehow contradicts his point?

[Lordquinton]

55. MLK day

When people take his quotes out of context that seem to support their views, and ignore the ones that condemn them.

So perfect for theists.

[guillaumeb]

56. Well, ironically enough, Dr. King was an actual theist.

So it is not too shocking that theists might quote him.