Report on slavery is only a start for Southern Baptists' reckoning with racism

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

Just over 100 years ago, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was on the brink of financial collapse.
The school’s trustees were thinking about closing the doors.
Then a man named Joseph E. Brown made a $50,000 donation to save the school.
The seminary’s leaders hailed the gift as an answer to prayer. They eventually honored Brown, who also served as governor of Georgia and a member of the seminary’s Board of Trustees, with a professorship in his name.
They never had a second thought about where the money came from.

Joseph E. Brown, the secessionist governor of Georgia during the Civil War. Photo courtesy of LOC/Creative Commons
Brown gained his wealth on the backs of incarcerated black men through the heinous practice of convict leasing. His business, Dade Coal Company, paid the state a fee for the work of incarcerated men and, in turn, worked these laborers under draconian conditions.....



But there’s more to the story.
Evangelicals — including Southern Baptists — have continued to demonstrate complicity with racism since the civil rights era and to the present day. From slavery to Jim Crow segregation, and now in the post-civil rights era, the narrative of white racial superiority persists, particularly among white evangelicals.

To read more:

https://religionnews.com/2018/12/14/report-on-slavery-is-only-a-start-for-southern-baptists-reckoning-with-racism/

One can argue that the US was built on a foundation that required racism to make the system work.

And it was not simply Southerners who benefitted. The Northern capitalists also depended on a steady supply of relatively low cost material that owed its low cost to the slave labor that produced it.

[Docreed2003]

1. While your last point is correct,

It should be noted that the sole reason for the formation of the "Southern Baptist Convention" was the support of slavery. It's all well and good that some within that group are finally openly acknowledging that fact, but that fact is not some new epiphany. The SBC foundation was directly related to the support of slavery.

[guillaumeb]

2. Agreed.

And slave owning capitalists needed a religious justification for their behavior.


Sad too that 150 years after the civil war in this country, the fight continues.

[Mariana]

4. The Bible gave them plenty of material to work with.

There's certainly no lack of support for the practice of slavery in that book.

[Major Nikon]

5. Proponents of Jim Crow laws also found biblical inspiration

While it's fallen out of fashion to use biblical references for such things, that doesn't mean attitudes have changed much.. Meanwhile the haters still direct their hate openly at other groups using the bible to reinforce their hatred.

[Act_of_Reparation]

6. Yet while the Catholic Church continues to struggle with systemic sexual abuse...

...your position has remained "change takes time".

Funny. In a not-at-all-funny sort of way.

[guillaumeb]

8. Do you expect any institution to change immediately?

If so, I would say that your expectations are unrealistic.

[Act_of_Reparation]

10. How much time must pass between two arbitrary points before one may realistically expect change?

Please, sage teacher, enlighten us.

[guillaumeb]

14. You made the objection.

So you provide the timetable, based on the historical record.

[Act_of_Reparation]

35. You made the objection.

I'm not the one telling people their anger at the Catholic Church for its refusal to address systemic sexual abuse is unreasonable. You are.

[guillaumeb]

40. And now you add misframing.

well done.

[Act_of_Reparation]

44. And now you add nothing.

Run along.

[vlyons]

29. Some Buddhists would say that it takes eons

nt

[Act_of_Reparation]

36. Some Buddhists wouldn't be understanding the issue, then.

The question is not, "When is change likely?"

The question is, "When is one right to be outraged?"

[vlyons]

37. Buddhists understand the issue perfectly

The question for a Buddhist is "What can I do to make the situation better?" The Buddhist view is not to get discouraged and fall into indifference -- even if achieving the goal is an eon away.

[Act_of_Reparation]

38. Except they have demonstrated two times in a row that they do not.

Are they gonna go for a third?

The suspense is killing me.

[vlyons]

42. I have no idea to what you refer

nt

[Act_of_Reparation]

43. That's because you're too busy proselytizing...

...something "some Buddhists" vociferously insist they're above, when clearly they are not.

No matter. I'll give this one more go-around before seeking greener pastures:

Our esteemed colleague was raised in the Catholic tradition and has several times attacked his fellow posters for feeling the Catholic Church's response to systemic sexual abuse within their ranks has been less than adequate. He insists we are unrealistic and irrational, that expect too much of the Church because change takes time. If you think he's trying to teach us patience, you're sorely mistaken. He's telling us to shut the fuck up.

[vlyons]

45. No I don't think that at all

Sexual misconduct has plagued Buddhism as well. And no, I don't try to convert anyone. People have to ask for teachings. You missed my point entirely. Sexual misconduct, fraud, intimidation, aggression, violence, war, etc have been with human society since forever. Since eons. Passing laws doesn't seem to very effective in eradicating it.

[Act_of_Reparation]

46. Uh-huh.

I'm not sure how any of that is relevant.

[trotsky]

11. You criticized Boston Atheists for ousting a Trump supporter.

How long were you willing to give them to change and become more tolerant of bigoted Republicans?

[MineralMan]

12. How many decades are needed to make change happen?

None of this is new. It's all been known for decades. What does the word "immediate" mean to you?

[guillaumeb]

15. Change comes slowly.

Any reading of history shows that.

[MineralMan]

17. So, how many generations will this change take, Guy?

How long are the faithful supposed to wait? Until Jesus returns?

[guillaumeb]

19. How long until racists accept that racism in the US is illegal?

You tell me.

[MineralMan]

20. Perhaps when their churches stop promoting it?

You truly do not see the connection between religion and racism? Really? In spite of the evidence?

Is the Southern Baptist Convention not a large enough sample of Christianity for you? It's the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. It has extraordinary power. Why does it not advise its followers to stop being racists? Because it is a racist organization itself. That's why. A Christian church that promotes racism. Bravo!

[guillaumeb]

22. I also see the conection between racism and patriotism.

If you do not, or cannot, perhaps you need to do more reading on human behavior.

[MineralMan]

24. I am a patriot. I am not a racist.

Nonsense! You are making excuses, once again, for your co-religionists. We can see right through that, Guy.

[guillaumeb]

26. You are diverting from the topic.

Humans behave as humans behave. If you expect one group to behave differently, explain why.

[MineralMan]

28. Humans behave as individuals.

They can be led by leaders of groups, but they still behave as individuals. Religions claim to promote the good, but end up promoting what is obviously not good. I am unaffected by that. Their followers follow their lead. Their behavior is affected by the leadership of their religions. The human misery that has caused is visible and has been visible for centuries. You are acting as an apooigist for that.

A pox on it all, Guy! A pox.

[guillaumeb]

31. OK.

[Act_of_Reparation]

39. You didn't find that compelling?

You think your "I believe in free will but shit's a mess because humans are gonna human amirite?" theory is superior?

Pro-tip: it isn't.

[guillaumeb]

41. I found it to be far too simplistic.

Yes, it would be easy if we could point to one thing and say that is the problem, but life does not work that way.

[Act_of_Reparation]

47. Simpler than "humans are gonna human"?

Simpler than "intolerance"?

You wrote the book on oversimplification, friendo.

[guillaumeb]

50. Observations about human conduct applying to all humans sounds simple.

But some persist in singling out religion as the reason, or the primary reason, for violence.

[Lordquinton]

48. He's diverting from the topic?

You're the one who drags unrelated subjects into the discussion. The topic is religion, not patriotism.

[Mariana]

49. You are diverting from the topic.

This is the Religion Group. We discuss religion here. Patriotism is another topic altogether.

[guillaumeb]

51. This subthread is a diversion.

Another example of the perfect attacking the good.

[trotsky]

7. They found that religious justification within Christianity, g.

Wasn't even difficult.

Your holy book gives instructions on how to care for one's slaves, you know. Jesus himself supported slavery, and did not condemn it.

[bobbieinok]

3. IIRC the 2017 SBC annual meeting fought over taking down Confederate monuments

[guillaumeb]

9. True.

And that fixation on the past, especially the slave owning past, indicates that they truly have not learned from history.

[MineralMan]

13. And, yet, the SBC is the largest protestant denomination in the USA.

Hardly an insignificant organization. When will they change? I'm guessing never.

[guillaumeb]

16. You are free to dismiss progress

as not being perfection.

[MineralMan]

18. What progress has Christianity made recently, Guy?

Do tell. Have they solved the decades old, well-known sexual abuse of children by priests? Have the fundamentalist Protestants and Catholics stopped trying to prevent women from making their own reproductive decisions. They've been doing that for decades, too. Do, describe some tangible progress for me that has been directed by church leaders and is truly effective.

I'll wait here, for as long as I can. I expect I'll be dead, though, before you have anything to report. And so it goes...

[guillaumeb]

21. Are you asking what progress humans have made on this issue?

Most abuse happens in the home.

So why do you expect religious institutions to do what humanity cannot do?

I will wait for your answer.

[MineralMan]

23. Clearly, I am not asking that. I am asking what the Christian religion is

doing. As a non-Christian, I must rely on people like you to give me such information. Do you have none to offer?

I'm not a Christian. I do not, nor have I ever, sexually abused anyone. Nobody I know has done so. I have fought against racism and for reproductive rights. I am not a Christian. Christians have fought to preserve racism, block women's right and their priests have committed sexual abuse against children and shielded the offenders from justice.

I am a human, and I just told you what progress I have made and worked toward. I asked you about the Christian religion. Tell me what progress it has made in those regards and in others.

Don't try to change the subject, Guy.

[guillaumeb]

25. Change is slow in institutional settings.

And this post is about such change.

But to those who question the pace of such change, I suggest that reading history provides the answer.

Your personal story has no relevance. It is likely that most humans do not abuse others.

But since we are exchanging stories, I have been politically active for progressive causes since my early adult years.

But you changed the topic to insist that change is too slow. As if there were a framework and a timetable for large scale change.

[MineralMan]

27. And I suggest that the organized church is morally bankrupt.

Despite its claims to be who should guide humanity, it has failed miserably in doing so. Now, I wish for it to become financially bankrupt as well, and abandoned by its members who it has failed.

I do have a timetable for change. It is a very short one. Change now! Not sometime down the road. Now. The Pope could change the church's position with the stroke of his Latin-writing pen. The SBC could decide that it had been wrong all those decades and declare racism to be a sin against humanity, which it obviously is.

My personal story is my personal story, as is yours. Mine is completely unaffected by the vagaries of Christianity, and is based on common sense and a recognition of the value of each human being. I don't see that recognition in the largest of organized religious groups. In fact, I see exactly the opposite.

Religion is not a positive influence on humanity. It has never been that. History, which you are so fond of referring to, demonstrates that beyond a doubt. How many have suffered and died from the ills of organized religion, Guy? Count them for me.

[guillaumeb]

30. Your claim is understood.

And it is relevant to you.

Your timetable is unrealistic, and unsupported by history. But you can insist on that timetable, and on your personal view of history.

As to your closing remark, you have stated it many times. But your focus is again far too narrow.

[MineralMan]

32. It is well understood by thoughtful people.

It is rejected by fools.

[guillaumeb]

33. And now you revert to insult.

Again. Demonstrating?

My debate Professor said that when a person resorts to insults, that is a sure sign that the person is losing the debate.

[MineralMan]

34. Who do you think I'm insulting, Guy?

You, by your own account, act in proper ways, as an individual, so I'm not insulting you.

[Ernesto]

52. Racist mysoganists.............

[guillaumeb]

53. Do you feel that change is possible?

I do.

[irisblue]

54. OnPointRadio/ NPR did a call in show this week

DECEMBER 17, 2018
Southern Baptist Seminary Documents And Discloses History Of 'Deep Racism'
The largest Protestant denomination in the United States is apologizing for its dark history of racism. Albert Mohler, Lawrence Ware and Curtis Woods join Meghna Chakrabarti.

You can listen to the show at their website. I'm not a current member of that denomination, but I was in high school years. I found it interesting.

[guillaumeb]

55. I am not a Baptist either.

But to really deal with continuing systemic racism, each organization and its membership must recognize that it continues.

Apologies are not enough if the behavior persists.