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MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 03:38 PM Dec 2018

In the Mood for Some Pseudo-Religious Codswallop?

Andrew Sullivan has a new article out in New York Magazine, wherein he defines religion as, well, just about any freaking thing at all that anyone believes, more or less. It's a perfect read for the confused, bemused, and refused out there for whom religion is a complete mystery and who thinks it should remain so.

Synthesizing a miles-broad collection of ideas, Sullivan wanders freely across the philosophical landscape, shod in only the flimsiest of footwear, leaving faint, bloody footprints as he goes. Read it to learn that even atheism is a religion, of an "attenuated form." There's something for everyone in this article to scoff at, I promise you.

I won't quote from the lengthy ramblings. I'll leave it to you to go and root around in its collection of misplaced ideas and foggy conclusions.

Highly recommended, especially for those who are already confused by it all (Guy?).

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/andrew-sullivan-americas-new-religions.html

It's going to be all the rage, I guarantee!

35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
In the Mood for Some Pseudo-Religious Codswallop? (Original Post) MineralMan Dec 2018 OP
Not all of it is twaddle. He's right about this: The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2018 #1
Well, I changed the title. I replaced "Twaddle" with "Codswallop." MineralMan Dec 2018 #2
I disagree. Trump will be replaced by something or someone else The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2018 #3
It has always happened. Different crowds, different tyrannical characters. MineralMan Dec 2018 #4
That' what got my attention... 2naSalit Dec 2018 #26
I think he has a point, but there is no word in the English language for it. marylandblue Dec 2018 #5
Relationships with others. MineralMan Dec 2018 #6
Those are personal meanings, and good as far as they go marylandblue Dec 2018 #7
Politics, social organizations, careers. MineralMan Dec 2018 #8
Yes, the list is endless, that's part of the problem marylandblue Dec 2018 #9
Good points. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #10
I think people need a grand narrative, that's really what he is talking about marylandblue Dec 2018 #16
Everyone crafts their own narrative. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #18
Most people buy their narratives off the shelf marylandblue Dec 2018 #24
IF/WHEN The Christ Himself RETURNS in Glory as He supposedly sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #29
Well, I am an agnostic, so I really don't know. marylandblue Dec 2018 #30
I had awareness of that which you 'hold' or how you identify. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #31
I guess I'm not a person... tonedevil Dec 2018 #32
I was clearly talking about people in general, not each and every individual person marylandblue Dec 2018 #33
Er what? Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #34
Didn't make any complaints about atheism just accepted what atheists usually say. marylandblue Dec 2018 #35
Like this: guillaumeb Dec 2018 #11
Yes, I read it. Codswallop. MineralMan Dec 2018 #12
I agree with that part of the article. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #13
See. I was right, then. MineralMan Dec 2018 #14
Well, you are free to think so. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #15
Of course I am. MineralMan Dec 2018 #20
This is the weakest part of the article marylandblue Dec 2018 #17
We disagree. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #19
No shit. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #27
But wait. Guy agrees with that paragraph. MineralMan Dec 2018 #21
Yes, it's hard for some people to think of life without religion marylandblue Dec 2018 #22
And some can't imagine life with religion. MineralMan Dec 2018 #23
... Major Nikon Dec 2018 #25
It's actually a quite interesting article. Jim__ Dec 2018 #28

The Velveteen Ocelot

(120,816 posts)
1. Not all of it is twaddle. He's right about this:
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 03:46 PM
Dec 2018
[Evangelical] leaders have turned Christianity into a political and social identity, not a lived faith, and much of their flock — a staggering 81 percent voted for Trump — has signed on. They have tribalized a religion explicitly built by Jesus as anti-tribal. They have turned to idols — including their blasphemous belief in America as God’s chosen country. They have embraced wealth and nationalism as core goods, two ideas utterly anathema to Christ. They are indifferent to the destruction of the creation they say they believe God made. And because their faith is unmoored but their religious impulse is strong, they seek a replacement for religion. This is why they could suddenly rally to a cult called Trump. He may be the least Christian person in America, but his persona met the religious need their own faiths had ceased to provide. The terrible truth of the last three years is that the fresh appeal of a leader-cult has overwhelmed the fading truths of Christianity.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
2. Well, I changed the title. I replaced "Twaddle" with "Codswallop."
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 03:48 PM
Dec 2018

I did that because Slate grabbed the word "Twaddle" before I did.

Trump is fading. Soon worship of him will fade and disappear. It's a transient infatuation that is doomed to be a disappointing flicker in time.

Even that paragraph is Codswallop. Truly. Well-written codswallop, but facile codswallop nonetheless.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(120,816 posts)
3. I disagree. Trump will be replaced by something or someone else
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 03:52 PM
Dec 2018

that the guns, God 'n' gays crowd will latch onto. That mindset isn't going away, ever. If we're lucky it will never achieve national power again, but religious fanaticism channeled into secular goals has alway existed and always will.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
4. It has always happened. Different crowds, different tyrannical characters.
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 03:54 PM
Dec 2018

It's not some new phenomenon that the writer just identified for the first time.

2naSalit

(92,668 posts)
26. That' what got my attention...
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 11:26 PM
Dec 2018

the word, codswallop! I don't think I've encountered that one before,and I come from places like the hometown of Longfellow and such where there was a healthy helping of Old English slang still about.

And it made me laugh!

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
5. I think he has a point, but there is no word in the English language for it.
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 04:11 PM
Dec 2018

People need meaning in their lives that it is at once personal and social. Religion furnishes this quite naturally, but atheism can't do it. So what can give meaning in a secular society, especially social meaning?

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
6. Relationships with others.
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 04:26 PM
Dec 2018

Connection with the physical world at any scale. Intellectual and artistic pursuits. Meaning is everywhere. Inside and outside of ourselves. Simple.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
7. Those are personal meanings, and good as far as they go
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 04:32 PM
Dec 2018

But many people need social meaning, something larger than themselves that they can tap into. Not everyone can create and choose meaning for themselves.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
9. Yes, the list is endless, that's part of the problem
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 04:40 PM
Dec 2018

There are too many choices for some. For others, the modern world is too fragmentary, none of the choice have sufficient cosmic implications.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
10. Good points.
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 06:18 PM
Dec 2018

Formalized and/ or institutionalized religion provides a place, both emotional and physical, and it provides a structure for people.

Some prefer a more open process, some prefer a more structured process.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
16. I think people need a grand narrative, that's really what he is talking about
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 08:04 PM
Dec 2018

Atheism doesn't provide it because it is a non-belief. The Myth of Progress can provide it, but progress may just be a dream, and we may be waking up from it feeling hungover.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
18. Everyone crafts their own narrative.
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 08:10 PM
Dec 2018

But people are also social beings, and group activities and identification are essential.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
29. IF/WHEN The Christ Himself RETURNS in Glory as He supposedly
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 12:38 PM
Dec 2018

ascended, and ALL creatures do see him with their believing/unbelieving natural eyes, then what shall ye people utter? If not tongue tied or eyes not open?

Not being smart *ss by this. But there's this, the flip side. Non-believers are so positive there is no God, a Higher Being. Well, what if there is. Will many say oh, crap. Or say it's a joke, a hallucination.

I don't know and I don't humanly care. My spirit is downcast at the thought, but it's not my responsibility.

Still 'n' all, 💙 you.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
30. Well, I am an agnostic, so I really don't know.
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 01:06 PM
Dec 2018

But I do think that many people need a spiritual life. If they don't have a tradition that speaks to them, they can go down some dark paths. I do have spiritual life that draws from several traditions and from western philosophy. Could be just our own brains generating content, could be something more.

People need something. I think that is the point Sullivan is trying to make.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
31. I had awareness of that which you 'hold' or how you identify.
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 01:40 PM
Dec 2018

Did not mean to respond to you specifically and intention not directed at you personally.

 

tonedevil

(3,022 posts)
32. I guess I'm not a person...
Sat Dec 15, 2018, 02:43 PM
Dec 2018

or maybe just not part of people because I feel no need for a grand narrative. For my part you have walked firmly onto speak for yourself territory.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
33. I was clearly talking about people in general, not each and every individual person
Sat Dec 15, 2018, 04:01 PM
Dec 2018

Instead of accusing me of speaking for you personally, maybe you should have sought clarification or just presented yourself as a counter example?

My apologies for not scrupulously including appropriate qualifiers in each post lest someone show up in the middle of a subthread without reading the whole thing, thinking I was speaking of him or her personally or intentionally excluding him or her.

Voltaire2

(14,701 posts)
34. Er what?
Sat Dec 15, 2018, 04:10 PM
Dec 2018

There are plenty of secular societies that appear to be getting along fine without religion. Atheism makes no claim other than no belief in gods, so complaints that not believing in any gods does not provide a framework for finding personal and social meaning are irrelevant

Sullivan proceeds with the usual pile of canards about atheism. He just can’t quit his right wing roots.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
35. Didn't make any complaints about atheism just accepted what atheists usually say.
Sat Dec 15, 2018, 04:34 PM
Dec 2018

The social meaning I said had no name, I then identified down thread as a "grand narrative." I need to clarify that. We have a thing called American society - shared history, social norms, and a sense of common destiny as a group of people. Secular nations generally have this sort of thing and if the basic narrative breaks down, there can be conflict. That's what I mean by a grand narrative.

We see this in the UK. Are they part of some sort of European superstate, or are they different from The Continent? You can make a common destiny out of either one, but they have to choose now and can't decide. Therefore they have a conflict. For better or worse, they will eventually go one way or another, or maybe find an alternative that transcends both on a sort of Hegelian synthesis.

We find similar tensions in America and elsewhere these days.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
11. Like this:
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 07:23 PM
Dec 2018
Which is to say, even today’s atheists are expressing an attenuated form of religion. Their denial of any God is as absolute as others’ faith in God, and entails just as much a set of values to live by — including, for some, daily rituals like meditation, a form of prayer. (There’s a reason, I suspect, that many brilliant atheists, like my friends Bob Wright and Sam Harris are so influenced by Buddhism and practice Vipassana meditation and mindfulness. Buddhism’s genius is that it is a religion without God.)


Perhaps you did not read that part?

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
21. But wait. Guy agrees with that paragraph.
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 08:29 PM
Dec 2018

Things and people speak for themselves. Only a fool speaks for others. And there's the problem, innit?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
22. Yes, it's hard for some people to think of life without religion
Thu Dec 13, 2018, 08:54 PM
Dec 2018

So they call every belief a religion. It would be more accurate to say that everyone needs a belief system and religion is just one set of options.

Jim__

(14,456 posts)
28. It's actually a quite interesting article.
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 10:01 AM
Dec 2018

People can disagree with what he's saying. But he is talking about the human condition - how can we reconcile our natural impulses to enjoy life with our knowledge the we, and all of our friends and acquaintances, are going to die. Discussing the issue can help us come to terms with it.

He quotes Bertrand Russell and John Stuart Mill in the article. Both were intelligent, well-respected thinkers, certainly not religious, and both seemed aware of the issue and willing to confront it:

But none of this material progress beckons humans to a way of life beyond mere satisfaction of our wants and needs. And this matters. We are a meaning-seeking species. Gray recounts the experiences of two extraordinarily brilliant nonbelievers, John Stuart Mill and Bertrand Russell, who grappled with this deep problem. Here’s Mill describing the nature of what he called “A Crisis in My Mental History”:

“I had what might truly be called an object in life: to be a reformer of the world. … This did very well for several years, during which the general improvement going on in the world and the idea of myself as engaged with others in struggling to promote it, seemed enough to fill up an interesting and animated existence. But the time came when I awakened from this as from a dream … In this frame of mind it occurred to me to put the question directly to myself: ‘Suppose that all your objects in life were realized; that all the changes in institutions and opinions that you are looking forward to, could be completely effected at this very instant; would this be a great joy and happiness to you?’ And an irrepressible self-consciousness distinctly answered: ‘No!’”


At that point, this architect of our liberal order, this most penetrating of minds, came to the conclusion: “I seemed to have nothing left to live for.” It took a while for him to recover.

Russell, for his part, abandoned Christianity at the age of 18, for the usual modern reasons, but the question of ultimate meaning still nagged at him. One day, while visiting the sick wife of a colleague, he described what happened: “Suddenly the ground seemed to give away beneath me, and I found myself in quite another region. Within five minutes I went through some such reflections as the following: the loneliness of the human soul is unendurable; nothing can penetrate it except the highest intensity of the sort of love that religious teachers have preached; whatever does not spring from this motive is harmful, or at best useless.”


Carl Jung also believed that the human psyche was driven to seek meaning and he wrestled with the role of religion and the implications of its absence from modern life:

It is the role of religious symbols to give a meaning to the life of man. The Pueblo Indians believe that they are the sons of Father Sun, and this belief endows their life with a perspective (and a goal) that goes far beyond their limited existence. It gives them ample space for the unfolding of personality and permits them a full life as complete persons. Their plight is infinitely more satisfactory than that of a man in our own civilization who knows that he is (and will remain) nothing more than an underdog with no inner meaning to his life
- Approaching the Unconscious

Jung sees a danger of the state potentially replacing the role of meaning found in mythology:

The state is merely the modern presence, a shield, a make-belief, a concept. In reality, the ancient war-god holds the sacrificial knife, for it is in war that the sheep are sacrificed ... So instead of human representatives or a personal divine being, we now have the dark gods of the state ... The old gods are coming to life again in a time when they should have been superseded long ago and nobody can see it.
- Nietzsche's Zarathustra

At the very least, the article should provoke thought.
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