Religion
Related: About this forumIn the Mood for Some Pseudo-Religious Codswallop?
Andrew Sullivan has a new article out in New York Magazine, wherein he defines religion as, well, just about any freaking thing at all that anyone believes, more or less. It's a perfect read for the confused, bemused, and refused out there for whom religion is a complete mystery and who thinks it should remain so.
Synthesizing a miles-broad collection of ideas, Sullivan wanders freely across the philosophical landscape, shod in only the flimsiest of footwear, leaving faint, bloody footprints as he goes. Read it to learn that even atheism is a religion, of an "attenuated form." There's something for everyone in this article to scoff at, I promise you.
I won't quote from the lengthy ramblings. I'll leave it to you to go and root around in its collection of misplaced ideas and foggy conclusions.
Highly recommended, especially for those who are already confused by it all (Guy?).
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/andrew-sullivan-americas-new-religions.html
It's going to be all the rage, I guarantee!
The Velveteen Ocelot
(120,816 posts)MineralMan
(147,572 posts)I did that because Slate grabbed the word "Twaddle" before I did.
Trump is fading. Soon worship of him will fade and disappear. It's a transient infatuation that is doomed to be a disappointing flicker in time.
Even that paragraph is Codswallop. Truly. Well-written codswallop, but facile codswallop nonetheless.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(120,816 posts)that the guns, God 'n' gays crowd will latch onto. That mindset isn't going away, ever. If we're lucky it will never achieve national power again, but religious fanaticism channeled into secular goals has alway existed and always will.
MineralMan
(147,572 posts)It's not some new phenomenon that the writer just identified for the first time.
2naSalit
(92,668 posts)the word, codswallop! I don't think I've encountered that one before,and I come from places like the hometown of Longfellow and such where there was a healthy helping of Old English slang still about.
And it made me laugh!
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)People need meaning in their lives that it is at once personal and social. Religion furnishes this quite naturally, but atheism can't do it. So what can give meaning in a secular society, especially social meaning?
MineralMan
(147,572 posts)Connection with the physical world at any scale. Intellectual and artistic pursuits. Meaning is everywhere. Inside and outside of ourselves. Simple.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)But many people need social meaning, something larger than themselves that they can tap into. Not everyone can create and choose meaning for themselves.
MineralMan
(147,572 posts)Hobbies that involves others. Sports. The list is endless.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)There are too many choices for some. For others, the modern world is too fragmentary, none of the choice have sufficient cosmic implications.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Formalized and/ or institutionalized religion provides a place, both emotional and physical, and it provides a structure for people.
Some prefer a more open process, some prefer a more structured process.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Atheism doesn't provide it because it is a non-belief. The Myth of Progress can provide it, but progress may just be a dream, and we may be waking up from it feeling hungover.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)But people are also social beings, and group activities and identification are essential.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,546 posts)ascended, and ALL creatures do see him with their believing/unbelieving natural eyes, then what shall ye people utter? If not tongue tied or eyes not open?
Not being smart *ss by this. But there's this, the flip side. Non-believers are so positive there is no God, a Higher Being. Well, what if there is. Will many say oh, crap. Or say it's a joke, a hallucination.
I don't know and I don't humanly care. My spirit is downcast at the thought, but it's not my responsibility.
Still 'n' all, 💙 you.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)But I do think that many people need a spiritual life. If they don't have a tradition that speaks to them, they can go down some dark paths. I do have spiritual life that draws from several traditions and from western philosophy. Could be just our own brains generating content, could be something more.
People need something. I think that is the point Sullivan is trying to make.
sprinkleeninow
(20,546 posts)Did not mean to respond to you specifically and intention not directed at you personally.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)or maybe just not part of people because I feel no need for a grand narrative. For my part you have walked firmly onto speak for yourself territory.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Instead of accusing me of speaking for you personally, maybe you should have sought clarification or just presented yourself as a counter example?
My apologies for not scrupulously including appropriate qualifiers in each post lest someone show up in the middle of a subthread without reading the whole thing, thinking I was speaking of him or her personally or intentionally excluding him or her.
Voltaire2
(14,701 posts)There are plenty of secular societies that appear to be getting along fine without religion. Atheism makes no claim other than no belief in gods, so complaints that not believing in any gods does not provide a framework for finding personal and social meaning are irrelevant
Sullivan proceeds with the usual pile of canards about atheism. He just cant quit his right wing roots.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)The social meaning I said had no name, I then identified down thread as a "grand narrative." I need to clarify that. We have a thing called American society - shared history, social norms, and a sense of common destiny as a group of people. Secular nations generally have this sort of thing and if the basic narrative breaks down, there can be conflict. That's what I mean by a grand narrative.
We see this in the UK. Are they part of some sort of European superstate, or are they different from The Continent? You can make a common destiny out of either one, but they have to choose now and can't decide. Therefore they have a conflict. For better or worse, they will eventually go one way or another, or maybe find an alternative that transcends both on a sort of Hegelian synthesis.
We find similar tensions in America and elsewhere these days.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Perhaps you did not read that part?
MineralMan
(147,572 posts)Just as I said.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)MineralMan
(147,572 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Do you go so far as a claim of infallibility?
MineralMan
(147,572 posts)Free but not infallible.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)MineralMan
(147,572 posts)Things and people speak for themselves. Only a fool speaks for others. And there's the problem, innit?
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)So they call every belief a religion. It would be more accurate to say that everyone needs a belief system and religion is just one set of options.
MineralMan
(147,572 posts)Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Jim__
(14,456 posts)People can disagree with what he's saying. But he is talking about the human condition - how can we reconcile our natural impulses to enjoy life with our knowledge the we, and all of our friends and acquaintances, are going to die. Discussing the issue can help us come to terms with it.
He quotes Bertrand Russell and John Stuart Mill in the article. Both were intelligent, well-respected thinkers, certainly not religious, and both seemed aware of the issue and willing to confront it:
I had what might truly be called an object in life: to be a reformer of the world. This did very well for several years, during which the general improvement going on in the world and the idea of myself as engaged with others in struggling to promote it, seemed enough to fill up an interesting and animated existence. But the time came when I awakened from this as from a dream In this frame of mind it occurred to me to put the question directly to myself: Suppose that all your objects in life were realized; that all the changes in institutions and opinions that you are looking forward to, could be completely effected at this very instant; would this be a great joy and happiness to you? And an irrepressible self-consciousness distinctly answered: No!
At that point, this architect of our liberal order, this most penetrating of minds, came to the conclusion: I seemed to have nothing left to live for. It took a while for him to recover.
Russell, for his part, abandoned Christianity at the age of 18, for the usual modern reasons, but the question of ultimate meaning still nagged at him. One day, while visiting the sick wife of a colleague, he described what happened: Suddenly the ground seemed to give away beneath me, and I found myself in quite another region. Within five minutes I went through some such reflections as the following: the loneliness of the human soul is unendurable; nothing can penetrate it except the highest intensity of the sort of love that religious teachers have preached; whatever does not spring from this motive is harmful, or at best useless.
Carl Jung also believed that the human psyche was driven to seek meaning and he wrestled with the role of religion and the implications of its absence from modern life:
Jung sees a danger of the state potentially replacing the role of meaning found in mythology:
At the very least, the article should provoke thought.