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guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:44 PM Dec 2018

What Does Water Represent In The Bible? A Christian Study

From the article:

So water in the Bible represents the cleansing of the sinner by the washing of the water of the Word of God; water is also the source of the living water that springs up into eternal life; Jesus referred to the coming of the “living water” as the Holy Spirit which at the time He spoke had not yet been poured out; and finally, God is this source of this living water in both the Old and the New Testament and those who drink from it will never die and indeed, shall never thirst again (John 4:14).


https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2015/07/17/what-does-water-represent-in-the-bible-a-christian-study/

Water is the medium through which baptism is performed, and it’s extremely fitting. Since water can symbolize cleansing and life, it is perfect to use in baptism.
When someone gets baptized, they are submerged under the water for a second, and then come back up. The whole process shows an outward expression of a true inner value; the person is publicly declaring that they have new life in Jesus Christ. All of the past sins and mistakes are dead (symbolic in the act of submerging the person in water) and then raised in newness of life (symbolic in the act of raising the person back up from the water). It is an expression of what has taken place within the heart; a full cleansing and new life.


https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/11/11/what-is-the-bible-or-spiritual-meaning-of-water/

The great flood referenced in the Bible can be read literally, but when people read deeply, and widely, it is generally apparent that the metaphorical use of water is everywhere.

A ritual bath cannot literally wash sins away. And Jews understand this.

Dipping a person in water for Baptism does not literally wash sin away. And Christians understand this.

The great flood has been seen as a metaphor for the cleansing of the earth for centuries.
183 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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What Does Water Represent In The Bible? A Christian Study (Original Post) guillaumeb Dec 2018 OP
Life a cleansing of sin TEB Dec 2018 #1
And renewal. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #3
I agree TEB Dec 2018 #15
We all know True Dough Dec 2018 #2
Not much of a solo by the drummer. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #5
Give it up Gil Cartoonist Dec 2018 #4
Thus speaks the official definer guillaumeb Dec 2018 #6
You rockin' it with this one, the OP. Spiritually, that is. Beautiful. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #8
Thank you. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #10
So do you think the flood was a literal event or not? Major Nikon Dec 2018 #17
A world wide event? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #43
You didn't answer the question Major Nikon Dec 2018 #57
But I did. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #58
You didn't answer the question Major Nikon Dec 2018 #61
Flooding occurs everywhere. Even in that area of the world. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #62
This raises more questions than it answers marylandblue Dec 2018 #65
The poster asked one question. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #66
Still waiting on that answer Major Nikon Dec 2018 #68
That is puzzling, given that I answered earlier. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #69
You answered your own question, not mine Major Nikon Dec 2018 #76
What are you saying? Lordquinton Dec 2018 #108
Again supplying more evidence that I was correct Lordquinton Dec 2018 #109
"There are floods" is not an answer marylandblue Dec 2018 #71
Did you read #62? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #73
Yes, but also posted this. marylandblue Dec 2018 #75
There were no doubt floods in that area. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #78
There is a lot of proof that it was to be taken literally marylandblue Dec 2018 #80
That is beside the point, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #81
Well, let me guess, we can't know the author's intent marylandblue Dec 2018 #82
A weak analogy. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #121
It's not my position, it's my guess at what you might say marylandblue Dec 2018 #124
I read post 62 and reread the story of Noah marylandblue Dec 2018 #83
Sounds like the Monty Python parrot sketch. MineralMan Dec 2018 #72
lol marylandblue Dec 2018 #110
It gets even better Major Nikon Dec 2018 #74
As fully predicted, you didn't answer the question Major Nikon Dec 2018 #67
See #62 and #69 guillaumeb Dec 2018 #70
See #76 Major Nikon Dec 2018 #77
Have fun. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #79
There may have been a 'literal' flood literally, but the interpretation may be that it should be sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #46
This. 😉 sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #22
I don't have one second of training at religious schools. pangaia Dec 2018 #151
I do not doubt that. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #166
Do you view the flood in Genesis as a literal event? Major Nikon Dec 2018 #13
I'll get back to you, I will. With a reasoned answer and not one from my exegesis. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #23
The question you ask is loaded Major Nikon Dec 2018 #25
I bet you're wishing you had read your own links more closely Major Nikon Dec 2018 #14
Hello definer. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #48
Hello name caller Major Nikon Dec 2018 #54
I am describing your actions. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #56
Bullshit Major Nikon Dec 2018 #59
No, I interpreted your remarks literally. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #60
Bullshit Major Nikon Dec 2018 #63
So you did not read this: guillaumeb Dec 2018 #64
You just reposted the same thing, with same problems, but marylandblue Dec 2018 #84
You mean the one that contradicted your previous assertion? Major Nikon Dec 2018 #97
Knowledge depends on definitions. MineralMan Dec 2018 #112
You have defined yourself. MineralMan Dec 2018 #111
Gil has posted no less than 4 links as a proof of concept for his "metaphor" Major Nikon Dec 2018 #16
Ground Control to... sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #47
Same thing it means in pretty much all of literature. Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2018 #119
More: guillaumeb Dec 2018 #7
👍 sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #24
Water in the Bhagavad Gita 7:8 sanatanadharma Dec 2018 #9
Thank you for the contribution. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #11
Your links don't say what you think they say Major Nikon Dec 2018 #12
That gif describes literally all his posts Lordquinton Dec 2018 #27
Wait a minute. trotsky Dec 2018 #34
He posted two other links in that one Major Nikon Dec 2018 #36
Hello co-definer. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #49
What the ever loving fuck is this new shtick if yours? Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #85
He's proven he can't actually reason or argue in defense of his beliefs. trotsky Dec 2018 #114
This may be about the numerous personal messages Gil receives Mariana Dec 2018 #115
It's cute how you've embraced your new tool to try and silence people who disagree with you. trotsky Dec 2018 #113
How clever. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #123
If only you stayed with your gif(t)s. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #44
I'll take your non-response as tacit admission of self-contradiction Major Nikon Dec 2018 #50
Misreading of text seems to be your own forte. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #51
You stole my line! Major Nikon Dec 2018 #53
"Hurl pejoratives"? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #55
"Your argument is bullshit" is not name calling or a Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #86
No, the tactic is to claim that only one acceptable definition exists. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #122
Nobody claimed there is only one definition marylandblue Dec 2018 #126
Bullshit Major Nikon Dec 2018 #149
NOW I see where the name calling thingy came in according to sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #88
Certainly more silly than most Major Nikon Dec 2018 #90
I am fond of this brother and will make no apologies. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #92
One of many used Major Nikon Dec 2018 #94
Acceptable names used against me. You may proceed. 🙂 sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #96
Looks like a non-answer Major Nikon Dec 2018 #98
You put me in a tizzz.... sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #101
Call me some acceptable names. 🤗 sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #102
Liberal. Democrat. Major Nikon Dec 2018 #104
Heheh. I'll take 'em. 😤 sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #106
Here's yours: Liberal, Democrat, A sister or brother in humanity, a side-kick traveler sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #107
You posted a source that proves it's bullshit Major Nikon Dec 2018 #100
I love seeing how water is a bringer of life to the Earth. gtar100 Dec 2018 #18
It helps to understand hidden meanings Major Nikon Dec 2018 #19
It wasn't Genocide, as related in the mythical story... NeoGreen Dec 2018 #33
There are some Christians who believe in the inerrant word of the bible Major Nikon Dec 2018 #37
Aw man, how in tarnation did I miss this one? 🤔 sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #150
You are working too hard to be offended Major Nikon Dec 2018 #153
You were easily offended by mild characterizations as being a definer, sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #154
You have deluded yourself into believing that Major Nikon Dec 2018 #155
I stand corrected. I AM delusional, but not in the way you have defined me. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #157
I'm just a soul.... sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #158
Then you should act that way Major Nikon Dec 2018 #161
Sir/ma'am!, yes sir/ma'am! sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #162
There's nothing reasonable about purposely taking words out of context Major Nikon Dec 2018 #159
I'll cowboy up from here out! Fair enuff. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #160
The OP's religious postulates do seem to follow a predictable course tymorial Dec 2018 #176
Cleansing through massive genocide? MineralMan Dec 2018 #20
Well you defined this thread as a Christian Study, so sure, whatever, knock yourself out. marylandblue Dec 2018 #21
Looks more like a sermon than a study Major Nikon Dec 2018 #26
So says the official definer of the Bible? Lordquinton Dec 2018 #28
Double down on a stupid bet Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #29
If gil is anything, it's predictable. trotsky Dec 2018 #31
Those are simply opinions. trotsky Dec 2018 #30
Was this before or after they stole the story from Gilgamesh? Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #32
Much if not most biblical stories were plagiarized from other mythologies Major Nikon Dec 2018 #38
On the topic of intellectual bankruptcy... Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #116
Definers! Major Nikon Dec 2018 #117
From your first link: MineralMan Dec 2018 #35
Obviously you just don't understand and are a definer Major Nikon Dec 2018 #39
So be it, then. MineralMan Dec 2018 #40
It does demonstrate the hazards of parroting out sermons Major Nikon Dec 2018 #41
Well, it's possible to find support from established theologians MineralMan Dec 2018 #42
Ground Control to The Major dot dot dot sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #45
Depends on what qualifies as an answer Major Nikon Dec 2018 #52
Name calling? That evades me. I don't recall name calling. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #87
Here's a few from just recently Major Nikon Dec 2018 #89
What's this 'lacking religious privilege'. I don't understand. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #91
Understandably so Major Nikon Dec 2018 #95
It's not a frackin' PRIVILEGE. It's something that was presented to me at forty days sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #99
Lots of people who have privilege can't see themselves without it Major Nikon Dec 2018 #103
You soitenly have a knack. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #105
Well that's a better explanation than anything Gil wrote or linked to marylandblue Dec 2018 #125
I got lost in the shuffle. 🤕 sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #133
Yes we're good. The emos don't bother me. marylandblue Dec 2018 #144
Somebody gets a tad bummed out. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #146
More: Eastern Orthodox-'Meaning or Meanings of Scripture' sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #156
You have a privilege. Being allowed to speak to me. 😝 JK!!1 sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #134
Hold the wire. I gotta be alert for the a.m. Lawn people are coming to dig a hole. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #93
Either none of that counts as namecalling Mariana Dec 2018 #118
Giving a pass to shitty behavior is part of the privilege Major Nikon Dec 2018 #120
What an interesting response. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #127
You reveal more of the same behavior Major Nikon Dec 2018 #128
tu quoque fallacy in evidence. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #129
Bullshit Major Nikon Dec 2018 #130
Latin should be banned from the English language marylandblue Dec 2018 #131
ita verro. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #137
Just Latin marylandblue Dec 2018 #141
I think that I might detect a bit of humor here. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #142
Yes, it's humorous, and stems from my love-hate relationship with Latin marylandblue Dec 2018 #143
I loved it. Considered teaching it while it was still fashionable. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #147
Is there a name for this Latin-ophobia? eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #164
Latinikaphobia, a term that has the advantage of being entirely in Greek marylandblue Dec 2018 #178
You caught the use if the Greek word. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #180
You not lumpin' me in with those things, are ye? sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #135
Wellllllllllllllllllll guillaumeb Dec 2018 #138
Howsabout when the Major gets a pass? 😚 sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #136
Ooooh my!!! guillaumeb Dec 2018 #139
It's New Atheism, which takes a dim view of religion marylandblue Dec 2018 #171
The label of being afflicted with delusion regarding 'religion', all things God and Scripture, annnd sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #173
Oh, THAT name calling. Why would the term 'definer' burn so? sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #132
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! guillaumeb Dec 2018 #140
Definer is mild for Simonopetra's sake. Gees louise. sprinkleeninow Dec 2018 #148
From context, Gil appears to be using it as a pejorative marylandblue Dec 2018 #145
We all define our own views. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #165
Let me fix that for you "We all define our views" marylandblue Dec 2018 #172
Did Jesus literally dance with his diciples at the Last Supper? pangaia Dec 2018 #152
Damn right, he did. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2018 #163
I was not there. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #167
Well you were not there for the ressurection either. pangaia Dec 2018 #168
True. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #169
I read the Lord of the Rings, but it never happened. pangaia Dec 2018 #170
Are you certain? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #174
Are you not? marylandblue Dec 2018 #175
"Water ... was used to literally cleanse the earth away from all that was evil and unholy" muriel_volestrangler Dec 2018 #177
"Here is a book written by arid-desert dwellers! What could water possibly have meant to them? struggle4progress Dec 2018 #179
And Hell was seena s a place of fire. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #181
Some say the world will end in fire struggle4progress Dec 2018 #182
A fitting ending for this subthread. eom guillaumeb Dec 2018 #183

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
3. And renewal.
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:48 PM
Dec 2018

Water is necessary for life, and a new life is made possible by the water of Baptism.

Cartoonist

(7,530 posts)
4. Give it up Gil
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:48 PM
Dec 2018

This is the most ridiculous interpretation of Noah's flood I ever heard. Since when is mass murder a metaphor for "cleansing"? Oh yeah, when Hitler does it.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
6. Thus speaks the official definer
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:50 PM
Dec 2018

of how the Bible is to be interpreted?

Simply because you never heard of it proves one thing. That you might want to read more widely.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
10. Thank you.
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:12 PM
Dec 2018

Apparently there are quite a few Biblical literalists who read these posts.

Not being a literalist myself, and having 17 years of education at religious schools, I am aware that the Bible uses metaphorical language to express things.

Guill.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
17. So do you think the flood was a literal event or not?
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:51 PM
Dec 2018

I'm not really expecting a straight answer from someone who demands answers, yet never provides them, BTW.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
58. But I did.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 05:39 PM
Dec 2018

The literal reading is that the earth was inundated.

While local flooding occurs, that is not the same.

So I did answer.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
61. You didn't answer the question
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 06:14 PM
Dec 2018

You responded with a question. That’s not an answer.

So I’ll ask again and once again predict your non-answer.

Do you think the flood was a literal event or not?

If you want to qualify your answer, then feel free but as yet you haven’t answered the question and I’m pretty sure you won’t because as we both know you can’t without either contradicting yourself or your source. So feel free to continue to dodge the question as that in itself provides an answer to another question.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
62. Flooding occurs everywhere. Even in that area of the world.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 06:16 PM
Dec 2018

Do I interpret the flood story as being a literal inundation of the entire world?

No.

And as a non-literalist, that is no contradiction because we recognize the use of metaphor in the Bible.

Edited at 5.15 CST to add:


Most interpretations of the Biblical story of Noah and the Flood assume that the story is either entirely literal or entirely figurative (and therefore fictional). This assumption is unwarranted. Many Scripture passages contain both literal and figurative elements. For example, Jesus tells the disciples that Lazarus is sleeping — He is using a figure. Then He explains that Lazarus is dead — now He is speaking literally. Even the expression Love your neighbor contains both literal and figurative elements. The term love is literal. The term neighbor is a figure, meaning that we should treat even persons who are not our neighbors as if they were.
So we can hold that there was literally a Noah and a great Flood and an Ark with animals. But we can also hold that the story includes certain figurative elements: that the Flood covered all the earth, that the Ark contained all animals, that all humans were killed other than in the Ark, etc.
Any argument that proves the Flood could not have covered the whole earth, or that all human persons could not have been killed at that time, or that all animals could not have fit on the Ark, only proves that those elements are figurative. It does prove that the entire story is fiction.


https://ronconte.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/noah-and-the-flood-literal-or-figurative/

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
65. This raises more questions than it answers
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 06:43 PM
Dec 2018

Why is Lazarus sleeping figurative and dead literal? Obviously, in this view, because that makes it a literal miracle. But if the story literally happened, it's more likely he was literally sleeping but appeared dead.

So did the miracle literally happen or figuratively happen? It seems some people want to have it all ways. He was both literally and figuratively raised from the dead and it both is and is not a miracle.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
66. The poster asked one question.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 06:49 PM
Dec 2018

I answered it.


And the question is in line with the OP, which deals with water as metaphor.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
69. That is puzzling, given that I answered earlier.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 07:31 PM
Dec 2018

Here it is again, from upthread:

Do I interpret the flood story as being a literal inundation of the entire world?

No.

And as a non-literalist, that is no contradiction because we recognize the use of metaphor in the Bible.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
76. You answered your own question, not mine
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 07:47 PM
Dec 2018

Kinda dishonest to pretend otherwise, especially when you post the proof.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
108. What are you saying?
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:06 AM
Dec 2018

that he is some kind of liar? HOW DAER YOU!

And notice he stopped replying to you because you directly called him on his tactics.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
109. Again supplying more evidence that I was correct
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:11 AM
Dec 2018

You insist that saying there is a god, and believing a god exists are two very different and separate things that anyone should be able to tell apart, but you now claim that " So do you think the flood was a literal event or not?" and "Do I interpret the flood story as being a literal inundation of the entire world?" are the exact same question.

Some kind of selective nuance.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
71. "There are floods" is not an answer
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 07:33 PM
Dec 2018

Of course there are floods! But nobody asked about that. What we want to know is: Do you think that Divine intervention cause an Ancient Near Eastern person, to anticipate a flood, build a boat, put his family and some animals in it, and survive while everyone else in the area died? If any part of that story is not literal, which parts and why.

Do I really need to spell it out this way?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
73. Did you read #62?
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 07:34 PM
Dec 2018

This part specifically:


Do I interpret the flood story as being a literal inundation of the entire world?

No.

And as a non-literalist, that is no contradiction because we recognize the use of metaphor in the Bible.



Because I am unsure what exactly prompted your response.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
75. Yes, but also posted this.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 07:46 PM
Dec 2018

Most interpretations of the Biblical story of Noah and the Flood assume that the story is either entirely literal or entirely figurative (and therefore fictional).

Which is a case of question begging. The narrative relies heavily on miraculous elements, so even if the flood is not worldwide, there are a number of other elements in question. If you take all the miraculous elements out, it ends being a guy who saved himself from a local flood in his own boat. Which means it probably is not literal at all, because that is not a story for the ages, although I am sure there have been people in history who survived a flood in their boat.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
78. There were no doubt floods in that area.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 07:53 PM
Dec 2018

Possibly large ones that prompted the story.

If one makes the argument that the author intended the story to be taken literally, one must accept that there is no argument or proof for that argument.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
80. There is a lot of proof that it was to be taken literally
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 08:02 PM
Dec 2018

The strongest of which is that as far back as we can trace all the Old Testament miraculous stories and up until the 19th century, they were always taken literally.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
81. That is beside the point,
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 08:05 PM
Dec 2018

which concerned the intent of the author.

So this is an example of the argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Agreed? Remember, we are not talking about a mathematical proof, we are speaking of authorial proof, proof of authorial intent, in a piece of writing.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
82. Well, let me guess, we can't know the author's intent
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 08:11 PM
Dec 2018

Just like we can't know if Cervantes was writing history or fiction, right?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
124. It's not my position, it's my guess at what you might say
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 01:33 PM
Dec 2018

With a bit of humor added. But if I guessed wrong about your position, please tell me correct me.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
83. I read post 62 and reread the story of Noah
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 09:08 PM
Dec 2018

And literally the only part that could have happened is the part where Noah got drunk. Which hardly seems like much of a story. So why not just say the whole thing never happened? Is that really so hard to say?

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
74. It gets even better
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 07:45 PM
Dec 2018

Gil describes his having it all ways opinion as “very widely shared”, then posts a source that says most interpretations go one way or another.

The author gives an example of figurative language in the bible. Even if you agree with that(and there’s reason not to), how do you get from a sleeping Lazarus to a figurative flood? Not surprisingly the author doesn’t say, nor does he explain why the bible went to such great lengths to describe a literal flood and its extent.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
67. As fully predicted, you didn't answer the question
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 07:12 PM
Dec 2018

So now your latest source contradicts your other four sources which claim the flood was a literal event.

Not only that, it says most interpretations go fully one way or the other which blows a big hole in your claim that your defining interpretation is “widely accepted”. I bet you hoped I’d miss that part, eh?

So please do continue to obsfucate. I’m fully enjoying watching you continue to dig a deeper hole.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
46. There may have been a 'literal' flood literally, but the interpretation may be that it should be
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 02:14 PM
Dec 2018

taken as allegorical.

I'm working onnit!1!!

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
151. I don't have one second of training at religious schools.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:03 PM
Dec 2018

And I am aware that the Bible uses metaphorical language to express things.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
23. I'll get back to you, I will. With a reasoned answer and not one from my exegesis.
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 07:56 PM
Dec 2018

One from 'scholars'/'theologians'. One from the Faith I try to represent.

I am not a literalist myself either. To a certain extent.

Do you feel 'God' is punishing some with earthquakes, floods, fires, hurt, pain, despair presently?

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
25. The question you ask is loaded
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:19 PM
Dec 2018

So rather than answering yes or no, my answer in keeping with my religiously unaffiliated preference is I don't care.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
14. I bet you're wishing you had read your own links more closely
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:26 PM
Dec 2018

Otherwise one might think you are a bible literalist. And we all know that's not the case, right?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
56. I am describing your actions.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 05:37 PM
Dec 2018

So yes, that is name calling in the sense of labelling what you are doing.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
59. Bullshit
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 05:53 PM
Dec 2018

You invented a bullshit “definer” narrative and then expanded your bullshit narrative with name calling. Then you even had the nerve to project your half-fast ad hominem on me with zero basis.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
60. No, I interpreted your remarks literally.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 06:09 PM
Dec 2018

Your preferred style.

And it was you who rejected my Biblical interpretation of water being a well known metaphor for cleansing. If memory serves, you called it a "bullshit" interpretation.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
63. Bullshit
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 06:27 PM
Dec 2018

You formed a bullshit strawman fallacy followed up with ad hominem name calling with your “definer” nonsense.

I rejected your interpretation the author(s) of Genesis meant a metaphorical flood rather than a literal one. Other people did as well. Hell even your own sources don’t agree with you. You are the only one who defined anything which you can’t even begin to support with anything other than your own baseless opinion.

Meanwhile you won’t even answer a straightforward question as to whether you now consider the flood to be a literal event like all your sources do.

But feel free to continue with your usual canned responses and name calling. It’s really the best you have at this point and it’s not as if I’d expect anything else.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
64. So you did not read this:
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 06:30 PM
Dec 2018

2. Flooding occurs everywhere. Even in that area of the world.

Do I interpret the flood story as being a literal inundation of the entire world?

No.

And as a non-literalist, that is no contradiction because we recognize the use of metaphor in the Bible.

Edited at 5.15 CST to add:


Most interpretations of the Biblical story of Noah and the Flood assume that the story is either entirely literal or entirely figurative (and therefore fictional). This assumption is unwarranted. Many Scripture passages contain both literal and figurative elements. For example, Jesus tells the disciples that Lazarus is sleeping — He is using a figure. Then He explains that Lazarus is dead — now He is speaking literally. Even the expression Love your neighbor contains both literal and figurative elements. The term love is literal. The term neighbor is a figure, meaning that we should treat even persons who are not our neighbors as if they were.
So we can hold that there was literally a Noah and a great Flood and an Ark with animals. But we can also hold that the story includes certain figurative elements: that the Flood covered all the earth, that the Ark contained all animals, that all humans were killed other than in the Ark, etc.
Any argument that proves the Flood could not have covered the whole earth, or that all human persons could not have been killed at that time, or that all animals could not have fit on the Ark, only proves that those elements are figurative. It does prove that the entire story is fiction.



https://ronconte.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/noah-and-the-flood-literal-or-figurative/
If you did not read it, here is your opportunity.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
84. You just reposted the same thing, with same problems, but
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 10:09 PM
Dec 2018

I'll tell about you a different problem with it. It basically says.it partly literal and partly figurative, because whatever could not be literal must be figurative. Which is a meaningless tautology.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
97. You mean the one that contradicted your previous assertion?
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 11:54 PM
Dec 2018

Try reading your own source that says “most” interpretations are either literal or figurative and then tell us again how your interpretation is “very widely shared”.

Or just repeat the same post once more and give me another opportunity to embarrass you again.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
112. Knowledge depends on definitions.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:20 AM
Dec 2018

Without clear definitions, there is no knowledge.

Your attempt at name-calling is a total failure.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
16. Gil has posted no less than 4 links as a proof of concept for his "metaphor"
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:48 PM
Dec 2018

Every single one regards the flood as a literal event. Meanwhile if you call bullshit on Gil's interpretation that it wasn't intended to be a literal event, you are called a "fundamentalist" and a "definer" both terms intended as a pejorative.

Oh well, as with many believers it's do as I say, not as I do.

Cuthbert Allgood

(5,170 posts)
119. Same thing it means in pretty much all of literature.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 12:15 PM
Dec 2018

I don't think you will find anything new or different in the bible compared to the use of water as a symbol before and after the writing of the bible.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
7. More:
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 05:57 PM
Dec 2018
The Bible contains dozens of metaphorical usages of water. For example, in the Old Testament water is a metaphor or simile for fear (Joshua 7:5 ), death (2 Samuel 14:14 ), sin (Job 15:16 ), God's presence (Psalm 72:6 ), marital fidelity (Proverbs 5:15-16 ), the knowledge of God (Isaiah 11 ), salvation (Isaiah 12:3 ), the Spirit (Isaiah 44:3-4 ), God's blessings (Isaiah 58:11 ), God's voice (Ezekiel 43:2 ), God's wrath (Hosea 5:10 ), and justice (Amos 5:24 ). Among the metaphorical uses of water in the New Testament are references to birth (John 3:5 ), the Spirit (John 4:10 ), spiritual training (1 Corinthians 3:6 ), and life (Revelation 7:17 ). See Creation ; Famine and Drought ; Flood ; Rain .


https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hbd/w/water.html

sanatanadharma

(4,074 posts)
9. Water in the Bhagavad Gita 7:8
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:11 PM
Dec 2018

God Krishna says, I am the taste of water.

'I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable om in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.'

As simile, analogy, parable or metaphor, water is used often in Vedic teaching.
What need of a well when the river is in flood?
Ocean and waves to explain separate-individuality (wave) and oneness-identity (ocean).


guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
11. Thank you for the contribution.
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:14 PM
Dec 2018

I have little knowledge of the book, or of the teachings, but water as a symbol of renewal is everywhere in the Abrahamic religions.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
12. Your links don't say what you think they say
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:19 PM
Dec 2018

Your first link doesn't even mention the flood.

Your second link from the OP regards the flood as a literal event.

He sent a flood to wipe out the wickedness from the earth, except for Noah, his family, and two of every kind of animal.


The subsequent proof of concept in post #7 also regards the flood as a literal event.
However, water is sometimes used in punishment for sin, as with the flood of Noah's day


In case there was any doubt...

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
34. Wait a minute.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 09:19 AM
Dec 2018

Are you telling me that in a desperate attempt to defend a ridiculous comment in another thread, gil posted a link that directly contradicts his position?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
114. He's proven he can't actually reason or argue in defense of his beliefs.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:57 AM
Dec 2018

In fact, when he *tries* he only succeeds in humiliating himself, as he did once again in this thread.

So he resorts to attacking those who hold different opinions, to try and silence or at least negate their point of view.

Classic guillaumeb.

Mariana

(15,096 posts)
115. This may be about the numerous personal messages Gil receives
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:57 AM
Dec 2018

asking him to continue doing what he is doing, and praising his efforts in this group. Perhaps the personal messages aren't as numerous as they used to be, and he's trying out some new material in an attempt to revive the interest of his fickle fans.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
113. It's cute how you've embraced your new tool to try and silence people who disagree with you.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:55 AM
Dec 2018

But embarrassing how you mis-use it, just like all the other ones you've tried.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
51. Misreading of text seems to be your own forte.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 05:21 PM
Dec 2018

Using the word forte, of course, in an ironic sense.

You can continue to insist that the Flood story can only be interpreted as an angry deity punishing people. And by such an insistence, you define yourself as the Definer of what constitutes acceptable textual analysis.


Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
53. You stole my line!
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 05:31 PM
Dec 2018

Meanwhile you still haven’t answered why your own links define an actual flood in just that way and there’s no reason to suspect you ever will answer the glaring contradiction of your own making.

But feel free to continue to hurl your pejoratives as people often do when their reasoning has reached its limits. I’ll also take that as a tacit admission of intellectual bankruptcy.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
55. "Hurl pejoratives"?
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 05:36 PM
Dec 2018

That too is your forte.

I stated that water is a well known and frequently used Biblical metaphor for cleansing, and I interpret the Flood story as metaphor.

And you insisted that my interpretation is, in your words, "bullshit".

You insist on the story being taken literally because it serves your agenda. But your attempt to limit what is acceptable interpretation reveals you as a literalist definer.

Voltaire2

(14,701 posts)
86. "Your argument is bullshit" is not name calling or a
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 10:25 PM
Dec 2018

personal attack, it is a negative description of your argument, not of you.

On the other hand your current defensive tactic is now to call people here “definers”, which is apparently intended as a personal attack but in practice is so juvenile that it mostly just makes you look petulant.

Like with your previous shtick “the choir”, you should do some meditation, some self reflection, and drop it.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
126. Nobody claimed there is only one definition
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 05:40 PM
Dec 2018

They claimed that your particular methodology doesn't make sense and also that the links you provided contradict some of your statements.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
88. NOW I see where the name calling thingy came in according to
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 11:33 PM
Dec 2018

a personne of major import.

Ooh, 'definer'. That's really hitting below the belt.


Mon frère, Guillaume,
😚

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
90. Certainly more silly than most
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 11:40 PM
Dec 2018

I could really care less what names he uses. It reflects negatively on him, not me.

Good job on cheering on his juvenile behavior, though.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
92. I am fond of this brother and will make no apologies.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 11:43 PM
Dec 2018

'Definer' is mild as a so-called 'name', no?

Oy, Gefilte.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
94. One of many used
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 11:47 PM
Dec 2018

Are you also going to encourage him with the rest of them? Which names would you find acceptable when used against you?

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
104. Liberal. Democrat.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 12:25 AM
Dec 2018

Human.

Do you need more examples of names intended to be complementary vs belittling?

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
107. Here's yours: Liberal, Democrat, A sister or brother in humanity, a side-kick traveler
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 12:35 AM
Dec 2018

on a contemplative journey, a body who entertains different views regarding life/belief from Moi dot dot dot...

"Call 1-800-how'm I doin'"

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
100. You posted a source that proves it's bullshit
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 12:03 AM
Dec 2018
Most interpretations of the Biblical story of Noah and the Flood assume that the story is either entirely literal or entirely figurative (and therefore fictional).


Tell us again how your interpretation is “very widely shared” after your own source says the opposite.

gtar100

(4,192 posts)
18. I love seeing how water is a bringer of life to the Earth.
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 06:52 PM
Dec 2018

The mountains are raised, the rain and snow collect, the rivers run through the canyons and out into the plains (originally dry lands), and everywhere it goes life springs forth. And wherever this process arises life flourishes. Eventually rivers dry up (the waters go in a new direction or the sources dry up) and life recedes. But where water flows, life flourishes. Using it as a metaphor and in rituals makes perfect sense.

And how our modern world treats our waterways - rivers and streams, lakes large and small, all the way to the oceans - how we pollute it with our waste and take it for granted on a daily basis, is also telling of how out of sync we are with the natural order of the world, out of sync with the spirit of life.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
19. It helps to understand hidden meanings
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 07:00 PM
Dec 2018

What's happening here is Gil is dragging his argument that the flood mentioned in Genesis should not be viewed as a literal event and is instead a metaphor for something else which he can't quite manage to define but it has something to do with sin and taking a bath, but definitely not genocide. If anyone rejects this half-baked notion, they are referred to as ignorant of history, a biblical literalist, a definer, and a fundamentalist.

So as proof of his non-literalist concept he is dragging out references ad nauseum that all point to the flood as a literal event. If this sounds crazy to you, don't feel as if you're the only one.

NeoGreen

(4,033 posts)
33. It wasn't Genocide, as related in the mythical story...
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 09:04 AM
Dec 2018

...it was effectively Omnicide: the act of killing all humans, to create intentional extinction of the human species. The purported leaving of fewer than 10 people alive, as related in the mythology, would be an extinction level event. Good thing it is all a myth, otherwise the inevitable incest would have sealed the deal.

But { -on}, it was a "cleansing", and that is a "good" thing to some people who believe in certain mythologies gleaned from bronze age oral stories barely preserved in tattered manuscripts and then translated (poorly) into languages not yet born { -off}.

Inquiry: If a sandstorm abrades the flesh from an unwary traveler, is that a cleansing to be revered too?

Inquiry 2: How many fish (freshwater vs saltwater) were preserved on this mythological ark? How many cetaceans? Are they not "animals?".

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
37. There are some Christians who believe in the inerrant word of the bible
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 10:02 AM
Dec 2018

For them the bible is all true and if there’s any such conflicts with reality, hocus pocus is the explanation.

Then there’s Christians who understand there’s quite a bit of mythology in the bible so they parse out what they don’t want by picking and choosing what they want to believe.

Then there’s those who want to have it both ways. They reconcile the contradictions and departures from reality as “metaphors” and if they don’t make sense, then it’s only because you don’t understand what the anonymous authors thousands of years ago were saying, but they do.

Of the three approaches, the last seems to require the highest level of delusion.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
150. Aw man, how in tarnation did I miss this one? 🤔
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:55 PM
Dec 2018

You expressed yourself. It may have been in a way offending believers. We're freakin delusional. Thanx for that. It doesn't hurt or offend.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
153. You are working too hard to be offended
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:20 PM
Dec 2018

There’s a difference between holding a belief that requires delusion and being in a psychotic state.

If you don’t understand my words or meanings, you might want to ask or consult a dictionary rather than jumping to conclusions.

Definition of delusion
1a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated
under the delusion that they will finish on schedule
delusions of grandeur
b psychology : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary
the delusion that someone was out to hurt him


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusion

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
154. You were easily offended by mild characterizations as being a definer,
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:42 AM
Dec 2018

fundamentalist, literalist, and so on. [I forgot--intolerant.]

Which is hardly derisive compared to saying believers are delusional.

I'm not offended. But other believers may take offense. I expect this from non-believers actually.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
155. You have deluded yourself into believing that
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 12:59 AM
Dec 2018

I merely pointed out your buddy resorts to name calling and as proof I pointed out the names he has called myself and others after you asked about it. Contrast this with your buddy’s false allegations of name calling where he can’t manage to back up his false allegations with the names he was allegedly called and plays the victim by whining incessantly about it.

Meanwhile I corrected you about taking my words out of context and using them improperly, yet still you insist on doing so. Very telling that.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
157. I stand corrected. I AM delusional, but not in the way you have defined me.
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:06 AM
Dec 2018

I wrongly assumed reasoned dialogue in here. But no.

I'm delusional.🙃

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
161. Then you should act that way
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:45 AM
Dec 2018

When I politely explain how you took my words the wrong way along with taking the time to explain why, continuing to do so does not project good intentions. It starts to look more like your buddy, which is exactly why he doesn’t get a warm reception around here.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
159. There's nothing reasonable about purposely taking words out of context
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:38 AM
Dec 2018

So let’s not pretend otherwise. Fair enough?

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
160. I'll cowboy up from here out! Fair enuff.
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 01:43 AM
Dec 2018

[Pinky Promise.]:

"What goes up the chimney?"
Smoke.

"What comes down the chimney?"
Santa Claus

"I hope your wish and my wish will never be broken."

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
176. The OP's religious postulates do seem to follow a predictable course
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 06:32 PM
Dec 2018

He definitely gets himself worked up everytime he posits his religious

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
20. Cleansing through massive genocide?
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 07:11 PM
Dec 2018

What a concept! A recurring theme in history. Burn the fields, but save a few seeds. Destroy all life, but put a few creatures on a boat. A new experiment.

Nice deity you have there. A terrific metaphor for monstrous cruelty. Yay God! Let's act just like him, shall we? And so we have, again and again. Brilliant!

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
21. Well you defined this thread as a Christian Study, so sure, whatever, knock yourself out.
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 07:34 PM
Dec 2018

But secular scholars look at it through the lens of literary criticism, and find other meanings that are less flattering to the God of the Bible.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
26. Looks more like a sermon than a study
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 08:26 PM
Dec 2018

Especially given if you disagree you are called a "definer", ignorant of history, a "biblical literalist", or a "fundamentalist" all intended to be pejorative.

Ironically all the supporting references given take exactly that approach yet somehow we must arrive at a station in the opposite direction.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
28. So says the official definer of the Bible?
Mon Dec 3, 2018, 09:29 PM
Dec 2018

You see, if what you claim were true, and all believers bowed to your commandments, then there would be no issues. But they don't. In fact there are groups that deny climate change because of God's promise to never flood the world again, that's where the actually real issue is.

And you're more concerned about your own personal beliefs than fighting against the ones that are literally killing people. You are giving cover to the bad guys.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
30. Those are simply opinions.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 08:38 AM
Dec 2018

None of them more valid than the belief that the flood described in Genesis was a real, actual flood that covered the entire earth and killed all people and animals except those that got on a giant wooden boat.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
38. Much if not most biblical stories were plagiarized from other mythologies
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 11:56 AM
Dec 2018

Yet some try to convince us of “deeper” meanings that inevitably comes from people who are very deep into their delusions. If anyone dares to point these things out, they are called names in lieu of anything remotely approaching a rational argument.

So yeah, it isn’t hard to spot the intellectual bankruptcy.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
116. On the topic of intellectual bankruptcy...
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:25 AM
Dec 2018

...consider the title of this OP.

"A Christian perspective" on the intended symbolism of a story written five hundred to a thousand years before their lord and savior miracled himself into alleged existence.

Welcome to Christendom, folks. Where we steal your shit and then tell you what it should mean to you.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
35. From your first link:
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 09:35 AM
Dec 2018
Jack Wellman is Pastor of the Mulvane Brethren church in Mulvane Kansas. Jack is also the Senior Writer at What Christians Want To Know whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible.


Is Jack Wellman a highly respected theologian? Is he a noted Biblical scholar? No, he's a pastor of a small town church in Kansas. He contributes blog articles to Patheos. He also doesn't reinforce your "Noah's flood is a metaphor for purification and cleansing" meme.

If that flood is a metaphor, it is more a metaphor for ethnic and racial cleansing - euphemisms for genocide. Was that what you meant?

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
40. So be it, then.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 12:04 PM
Dec 2018


I guess I was expecting links to noted theologians and analysts. Instead, we see country preachers and bloggers.

But, I suppose religionnews.com and Patheos are easy to search if you're looking for random support for stuff.

Disappointing, though.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
41. It does demonstrate the hazards of parroting out sermons
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 12:32 PM
Dec 2018

All it really proves is some people live in an intellectual bubble where critics are dismissed with name calling.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
42. Well, it's possible to find support from established theologians
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 12:40 PM
Dec 2018

for almost any religious point of view, but one has to look for it. It's much easier to find that stuff on popular religious blog sites. There's more of it, it's less academic in nature, and you can generally find quotable statements to copy and paste in the first paragraphs of such postings.

If you don't care who wrote something or their qualifications, you can support almost any argument with links from some website or another.

Some people have their favorite religious blog sites, with hundreds of posts by authors of various backgrounds. Many of those sites are open to pretty much anyone who wishes to post on them. It's pretty easy to sign up to be an author on most such sites. I signed up on a couple of them, just to see if they cared who posts on them. Nope. I didn't intend to post, but they'd be happy to publish my rambling thoughts.

Citing "authorities" to support a wackdoodle idea is a classic strategy. Few will examine the credentials of your source. The Internet contains "experts" on everything, most of them soi disant experts, of course.

For example, the author of the second excerpt in the OP above, Michael Krauszer, is a "Ministerial Assistant," whatever that is. He also styles himself a "Social Media Manager" at some small church. I went to that person's LinkedIn page. Turns out he has a BA in English, just like me. No divinity school education, and not even an actual ordained minister. Hardly a theologian or expert on matters Biblical.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-krauszer-a51a9aa8/

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
45. Ground Control to The Major dot dot dot
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 02:06 PM
Dec 2018

Ima working on my answer to you from a previous post regarding literalist v. allegory.
I've been a mess the whole of November and I got a bottleneck/log jam.

One thing--some of youse guys respond in harsh derision to 'answers' provided by 'others', then complain there's no reasoned and civil discourse. My words.

Youse appear to seek answers then shoot down the respondent.

Quote--All it really proves is some people live in an intellectual bubble where critics are dismissed with name calling.--Unquote.

Plus, it was put out above that 'we' God believers should shutty about Him and His and fix the horrid destruction wrought by 'those' who supposedly follow Him and His precepts.

Which is exactly what some of us are doing. But not as some of y'all expect or fast enuff.

On edit:
Yours truly,
Folksy Country Bumpkin

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
52. Depends on what qualifies as an answer
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 05:24 PM
Dec 2018

When a question is asked and someone continuously responds with condescension, name calling, and other various forms of nonsense in a deliberate attempt to avoid the question, at some point you begin to expect such hostility.

Might be worth asking the aforementioned respondent why he responds that way. As a followup question you can ask why he then asks like a victim when someone points these things out.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
87. Name calling? That evades me. I don't recall name calling.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 11:18 PM
Dec 2018

You see someone from the other side acting the victim? Can you understand that 'we' may come across as defensive at times, that is, defending the Faith we hold?

Some of the atheists also become defensive in responses according to their stance.

At times it appears that 'some' have no intention of seeking understanding from the 'other' side, only contention.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
89. Here's a few from just recently
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 11:34 PM
Dec 2018

I was called intolerant, a fundamentalist, a biblical literalist, and a definer all of which carried the context of a pejorative. The same name caller also frequently makes baseless accusations and frequently plays the victim even alleging the same behavior. For instance name calling is frequently alleged, but when asked for the name that was called you get <crickets> as a response or just more baseless accusations.

This isn’t defensive behavior. When it happens frequently and against multiple people who hold opposing viewpoints the explanation isn’t hard to figure out. It’s not as if those who lack religious privilege don’t see it all the time.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
99. It's not a frackin' PRIVILEGE. It's something that was presented to me at forty days
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 12:02 AM
Dec 2018

landed on earth and I accept it to this day in my imperfection. I had the 'choice' to embrace it or walk away. My Faith makes 'sense' to me. I can't see myself without it.

Yeah, the Faith of our forbears has been perverted in circles, but no reason for me to chuck it.

Did Lazarus 'sleep' and then he was awaken? No, he was flat out dead for three days and resurrected. The parallel being a foreshadowing of Christ's three days in the tomb resurrection.

If one does not believe in supernatural miracle working, then this an absurd conclusion. I get that.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
125. Well that's a better explanation than anything Gil wrote or linked to
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 04:11 PM
Dec 2018

I guess it pays to have a real theologian working for you.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
133. I got lost in the shuffle. 🤕
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:13 PM
Dec 2018

Mistakenly thot 'twas the major responding.

Apologies.

We good?



'Some' people frown upon googly faces and smilie emojicons in this place. 😂

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
93. Hold the wire. I gotta be alert for the a.m. Lawn people are coming to dig a hole.
Tue Dec 4, 2018, 11:46 PM
Dec 2018

Lemme haul out my Book of Scripture and see if I can come up with a little something, something.

Mariana

(15,096 posts)
118. Either none of that counts as namecalling
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 11:56 AM
Dec 2018

or it isn't worthy of recollection.

"Name calling? That evades me. I don't recall name calling."

Isn't it funny how often shitty behavior doesn't even register, if the person engaging in it is a co-religionist?

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
120. Giving a pass to shitty behavior is part of the privilege
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 12:55 PM
Dec 2018

The examples aren’t hard to find. Everything from the “war on Christmas” to giving a pass for child rape qualifies.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
141. Just Latin
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:38 PM
Dec 2018

French has been banned since the Seven Years War. Spanish is acceptable because we welcome immigration from our neighbors to the south.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
143. Yes, it's humorous, and stems from my love-hate relationship with Latin
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:47 PM
Dec 2018

Which I took in high school but found difficult. So now I believe that Latinisms should be pre-translated into English to avoid triggering the traumatized.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
138. Wellllllllllllllllllll
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:35 PM
Dec 2018

I cannot interpret what another means, but a plain text interpretation might lead one to believe that you are correct.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
171. It's New Atheism, which takes a dim view of religion
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:37 PM
Dec 2018

On of Richard Dawkins' books is even called "The God Delusion," so you can see where that line of thinking comes from.

sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
173. The label of being afflicted with delusion regarding 'religion', all things God and Scripture, annnd
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 04:42 PM
Dec 2018

especially Christ does not rattle me. It's expected.

I am who I am and have confidence in my spirituality regardless.


sprinkleeninow

(20,546 posts)
148. Definer is mild for Simonopetra's sake. Gees louise.
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 10:33 PM
Dec 2018

Oh my dog.

When we get dissed for believing, the words are not spoken but subliminally worse.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
145. From context, Gil appears to be using it as a pejorative
Wed Dec 5, 2018, 09:52 PM
Dec 2018

Since he implies that there is something wrong with defining your terms consistently and insisting that.others be consistent as well.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
165. We all define our own views.
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:28 PM
Dec 2018

But if any one insists that only one interpretation is correct, and rejects others as "bullshit", that person is defining things.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
172. Let me fix that for you "We all define our views"
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 04:20 PM
Dec 2018

But I define that if anyone insists that only one interpretation is correct, and rejects others as "bullshit" that person is defining things."

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
167. I was not there.
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:31 PM
Dec 2018

Existing evidence, in the form of video, is currently unable to be accessed by us in 2018.


I was not there. I am old, but not that old.

muriel_volestrangler

(102,476 posts)
177. "Water ... was used to literally cleanse the earth away from all that was evil and unholy"
Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:27 PM
Dec 2018

Hmmm, that 2nd source doesn't seem to regard the story as a 'metaphor', what with that 'literally' there. Still, we woudln't want to define the guy, so maybe we should look for what else he's written on the subject.

It’s so significant, matter of fact that God specifically told us what it means and why he created it.
...
So, next time you see a rainbow in the sky, remember back to that Genesis story. It’s truly amazing to think that, to this day, God is still reminding us of what he did so long ago on this earth. It can provide us with comfort, knowing that even after a terrible storm, God can and will be with us.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/12/09/what-does-a-rainbow-mean-in-the-bible/

'God Did It'. And is responsible for the story that says so. And is sending a message with each rainbow you see.

struggle4progress

(120,241 posts)
179. "Here is a book written by arid-desert dwellers! What could water possibly have meant to them?
Fri Dec 7, 2018, 01:10 PM
Dec 2018

Why in the world did they use metaphors like water-of-life? Mysteriouser and mysteriouser!"

struggle4progress

(120,241 posts)
182. Some say the world will end in fire
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 11:44 AM
Dec 2018

Some say in ice

From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire

But if it had to perish twice
I think I know enough of hate
to say that for destruction ice
is also great
and would suffice

-- Robert Frost

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