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guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 04:10 PM Oct 2018

There is a crack... in everything. That's how the light gets in.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That’s how the light gets in.


Leonard Cohen.

And that crack, that human imperfection, has been expressed in the Bible as original sin.

There is no perfection in humanity, but there is hope, and there is struggle. Thus the metaphor of the crack in everything.



But there is also hope, the hope that the light will enter into the imperfect vessel.
63 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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There is a crack... in everything. That's how the light gets in. (Original Post) guillaumeb Oct 2018 OP
"sin" is a... NeoGreen Oct 2018 #1
Sin is one way of saying "imperfect". guillaumeb Oct 2018 #3
Kindly... NeoGreen Oct 2018 #15
It's a way of saying homosexuality is bad while child rape is not Major Nikon Oct 2018 #19
The problem with your "analysis" is that it is contradicted by Jesus' own words. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #21
Speaking of "any real evidentiary basis" do you have a cite? Major Nikon Oct 2018 #23
You made specific claims. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #24
"The problem with your "analysis" is that it is contradicted by Jesus' own words." Major Nikon Oct 2018 #26
Carefully read #19. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #37
Carefully read where I asked for a cite for your assertion you failed to produce. Major Nikon Oct 2018 #39
Do, please, show us those words, Guy. MineralMan Oct 2018 #32
Tyhe Bible is pretty specific edhopper Oct 2018 #2
No, your reading is specific. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #4
Oringinal sin edhopper Oct 2018 #5
Original sin is imperfection. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #6
Hardly edhopper Oct 2018 #7
And your response is your attempt to derail the post. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #8
All my response are about your post edhopper Oct 2018 #9
Do you argue for perfection? guillaumeb Oct 2018 #10
I disagree edhopper Oct 2018 #11
Disagreement is diversion Voltaire2 Oct 2018 #13
You just don't understand Major Nikon Oct 2018 #29
Does it mean imperfection? Act_of_Reparation Oct 2018 #46
Are you suggesting that my imperfection influences my interpretation? guillaumeb Oct 2018 #47
No. I'm not. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2018 #49
it's pretty literally laid out in the bible qazplm135 Oct 2018 #50
the crack in the oppression and misery created by religion lets in the light nt msongs Oct 2018 #12
But a splash of water and mumbo jumbo Voltaire2 Oct 2018 #14
Simplistic, and untrue. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #16
Please demonstrate the validity of your claims. MineralMan Oct 2018 #33
The claim was actually in #14. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #38
CCC 405. Voltaire2 Oct 2018 #40
From your own citation: guillaumeb Oct 2018 #41
It erases original sin. Voltaire2 Oct 2018 #43
Reread the citation. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #44
This was what you said in your op: Voltaire2 Oct 2018 #48
FFS qazplm135 Oct 2018 #51
Par for the course. Voltaire2 Oct 2018 #54
Original sin is a purely Christian concept. MineralMan Oct 2018 #17
Original sin is a metaphor for imperfection. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #18
Punt. MineralMan Oct 2018 #20
You see only the reflection cast by the real. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #22
Tu Quoque. MineralMan Oct 2018 #25
Original sin has an implication of guilt that imperfection does not marylandblue Oct 2018 #27
Well, like all things, Guy's argument is imperfect. MineralMan Oct 2018 #28
And thus you reveal your true feelings about yourself and others. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #42
Punt again. MineralMan Oct 2018 #45
Biblical literalists are those who believe in biblical inerrancy Major Nikon Oct 2018 #34
you know when something is said literally qazplm135 Oct 2018 #52
The same concept exists pretty much verbatim with all Abrahamic religions Major Nikon Oct 2018 #30
As you say, religion has its uses. MineralMan Oct 2018 #31
By extension, who can argue with someone who pretends to speak for god? Major Nikon Oct 2018 #35
Oh, arguing with human beings is easy. Entertaining, too. MineralMan Oct 2018 #36
Thanks for posting poem. Interesting. But to be honest, my feelings are that everyone is made... SWBTATTReg Oct 2018 #53
An interesting viewpoint. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #55
Nonsense. MineralMan Oct 2018 #56
You apparently missed the point. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #57
What point do you think I missed? MineralMan Oct 2018 #58
What I initially wrote. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #59
I addressed that upthread. MineralMan Oct 2018 #60
We disagree. eom guillaumeb Oct 2018 #61
We almost always do. MineralMan Oct 2018 #62
We agree. eom guillaumeb Oct 2018 #63

NeoGreen

(4,033 posts)
1. "sin" is a...
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 04:48 PM
Oct 2018

...bad idea and bronze-age false-construct endlessly proffered by christian theology.

It should be dismissed out of hand, forgotton and replaced by Nis: an act one performs merely for the benefit of another.

I am not a christian, therefore by definition I am without "sin".

Anyone who claims otherwise is merely trying to foist a failed christian dogma onto me. And I wouldn't take it kindly.

If you are with "sin", kindly keep it to yourself, please.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
3. Sin is one way of saying "imperfect".
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 05:37 PM
Oct 2018

Or flawed. If you are perfect, forgive me for assuming otherwise.

NeoGreen

(4,033 posts)
15. Kindly...
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 08:01 AM
Oct 2018

...keep your bronze age christian concepts to yourself. Do not attempt to apply those failed bad ideas onto me, it is very rude.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
19. It's a way of saying homosexuality is bad while child rape is not
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 11:36 AM
Oct 2018

As such it lends itself to corruption and apologizing for bad behavior. It's a word used by controllers who pretend their system of ethics is divine so dissent may be deemed heretical. It's kinda like devising your own commandments to preserve self-righteousness. I suppose it might make sense to those who demand invisible sky daddies who deal reward and punishment for breaking such arbitrary rules, but to those who aren't so weak minded it's nothing more than gibberish.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
21. The problem with your "analysis" is that it is contradicted by Jesus' own words.
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 11:40 AM
Oct 2018

And lacks any real evidentiary basis.

But I understand that you have your own definition of what words and concepts mean.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
24. You made specific claims.
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 11:44 AM
Oct 2018

It is up to you to provide evidence.

And that is how it works.

Stick with the gifs.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
26. "The problem with your "analysis" is that it is contradicted by Jesus' own words."
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 11:51 AM
Oct 2018

Request for cite response -- <crickets>

I wish I could say I'm surprised you'd pivot when bullshit has been called, but the hope for a substantive reply from you is long gone. All that's really left is laughing at the faceplants.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
39. Carefully read where I asked for a cite for your assertion you failed to produce.
Tue Oct 23, 2018, 03:02 PM
Oct 2018

Obviously you won't because you can't, which means it's safe to assume you are producing nothing better than gibberish.



MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
32. Do, please, show us those words, Guy.
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 12:25 PM
Oct 2018

We'll wait here. Simple citations will do. We all have access to the sources.

edhopper

(34,783 posts)
2. Tyhe Bible is pretty specific
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 05:08 PM
Oct 2018

about what that original sin is.

And it's not about our "imperfection".

It's a load of horsecrap laid on people to keep them in line.

edhopper

(34,783 posts)
5. Oringinal sin
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 06:26 PM
Oct 2018

is a Christian concept.

It's not my interpretation. It's that of 2 billion Christians.

If you think the bible is some sacred text from God, that is.

edhopper

(34,783 posts)
7. Hardly
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 06:31 PM
Oct 2018

another sad attempt by you to dilute a religious concept so much that it becomes meaningless.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
46. Does it mean imperfection?
Tue Oct 23, 2018, 07:53 PM
Oct 2018

Or do you, random anecdotal internet individual, interpret it to mean imperfection?

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
47. Are you suggesting that my imperfection influences my interpretation?
Tue Oct 23, 2018, 08:22 PM
Oct 2018

Could your own imperfection mean that you fail to recognize the correctness of my statement?

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
49. No. I'm not.
Wed Oct 24, 2018, 07:41 AM
Oct 2018

I'm suggesting your interpretation is your own, is not generalizable, and is therefore not useful when discussing the broader implications of the concept.

Thank you. Drive through.

qazplm135

(7,493 posts)
50. it's pretty literally laid out in the bible
Fri Oct 26, 2018, 04:49 PM
Oct 2018

that original sin is literally the moment when Eve (and Adam) defies God and eats of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

It's literally defiance of God, specific defiance, with a specific act.

"Original sin, also called ancestral sin,[1] is a Christian belief of the state of sin in which humanity exists since the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEODCC2005Original_sin_2-0

It's...literally...the "original" "sin." As in the first sin. Mankind shares that sin in a weird inheritance that renders a newborn infant as having the "stain" of the sin of Adam and Eve.

Augustine described it as "inherited guilt."

Martin Luther says similar things. Mary was a special case without sin so she could birth Jesus.

There are competing theories within Christianity, so at best one can say your argument that it's "imperfection" is picking one of those theories and applying it to the whole.

Voltaire2

(14,701 posts)
40. CCC 405.
Tue Oct 23, 2018, 05:22 PM
Oct 2018

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.


http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/405.htm

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
41. From your own citation:
Tue Oct 23, 2018, 05:25 PM
Oct 2018
Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.


Baptism does not eliminate the imperfection. Thus the warning that persistent imperfection requires a spiritual battle.

Voltaire2

(14,701 posts)
48. This was what you said in your op:
Wed Oct 24, 2018, 04:25 AM
Oct 2018

“that human imperfection, has been expressed in the Bible as original sin. ”

As I noted original sin is erased by a splash of water and some mumbo jumbo. If “human imperfection” remains, the obvious conclusion is that your assertion that original sin is “human imperfection” is inaccurate.

qazplm135

(7,493 posts)
51. FFS
Fri Oct 26, 2018, 04:51 PM
Oct 2018

that definition LITERALLY distinguishes between original sin which it says baptism ERASES, and "imperfection" as you call it that remains in men to do evil.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
17. Original sin is a purely Christian concept.
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 11:31 AM
Oct 2018

You believe it to be true, but that does not make it so. Imperfection is not sin. It is simply variation from the model. It is also the key to evolution. If lifeforms were perfect, they would not change over time.

It is really impossible to define what perfection is, though. So, given universal variation, perfection cannot actually exist. It has never been observed. Imperfections are simply unique features of individual replications of the model. What is the model? it is the class being examined. It is an ideal that cannot be reached, and that never is reached.

Imperfection is not sin. It is simply imperfection in something that exists. The model does not exist as a real object.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
18. Original sin is a metaphor for imperfection.
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 11:35 AM
Oct 2018

The Bible frequently uses metaphor. But if you are a literalist, and your arguments make it clear that you are, I understand your refusal to consider any non-literal meanings.

So you do have some commonality with one part of the faith community.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
27. Original sin has an implication of guilt that imperfection does not
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 11:56 AM
Oct 2018

It's the thing that made Christ's sacrafice necessary, because he was perfect and had no guilt. If the Church Fathers meant mere imperfection, they would have stayed with the Jewish concept of sin, which is closer to either "making a mistake," or "becoming impure." But if they had done that, there would have been no need for Christ, so they actually had to reject your interpretation in order to create Christianity.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
28. Well, like all things, Guy's argument is imperfect.
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 12:06 PM
Oct 2018

It's surface is crazed by a network of fine cracks. Still, however, no light penetrates the underlying body of opaque clay.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
34. Biblical literalists are those who believe in biblical inerrancy
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 12:30 PM
Oct 2018

Anyone north of a room temperature IQ who has read a few of MM's posts would not call him a biblical literalist, but believe it or not those people do exist and reject such metaphorical interpretations. I find this approach more honest than one who claims the bible is simultaneously metaphorical and literal when it's convenient without ever having to define how one decides which is which. YMMV.

qazplm135

(7,493 posts)
52. you know when something is said literally
Fri Oct 26, 2018, 04:53 PM
Oct 2018

and then interpreted literally by a large chunk of the folks who might know it best (Catholic church, various Christian theologians throughout history)...

I don't know, it might be meant to be taken literally.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
30. The same concept exists pretty much verbatim with all Abrahamic religions
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 12:21 PM
Oct 2018

It's used quite frequently to demonstrate how women are more easily corruptible and should be held subservient to keep them from corrupting men. In other words, it's just another fairy tale used to promote an agenda by pretending it has divine meaning.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
31. As you say, religion has its uses.
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 12:24 PM
Oct 2018

Men recognized those uses early on, and have been exploiting them ever since.

Attributing such ideas to a deity works a treat, it seems. I mean, who can argue with a god, after all?

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
35. By extension, who can argue with someone who pretends to speak for god?
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 12:35 PM
Oct 2018

So yeah, that's the whole point. It does offer some entertainment value when those who pretend to speak for god pretend their sky daddy isn't a misogynist, a homophobe, and an asshole despite the evidence which may be found in the exact same reference they provide. You just have to say it's metaphorical and those who read the same words just don't understand.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
36. Oh, arguing with human beings is easy. Entertaining, too.
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 12:39 PM
Oct 2018

In keeping with the theme of the thread, it usually cracks me up.

However, it appears that our fellow DUer has punted now, thus turning over the ball to the opposing team. Three and out.

SWBTATTReg

(24,085 posts)
53. Thanks for posting poem. Interesting. But to be honest, my feelings are that everyone is made...
Fri Oct 26, 2018, 04:57 PM
Oct 2018

perfect in their own way, all of us (I am, you are, everyone is). There are no imperfect human beings, after all, how can god mess up? Who truly knows the purpose of creation and nature overall? All of us in our own different way is exactly how we were supposed to be made, and thus, perfect.

This is what I believe. Everyone is perfect, and it is a wonderful feeling to have, vs. all of the other 'you are full of sin, etc.'.

MineralMan

(147,572 posts)
56. Nonsense.
Sun Oct 28, 2018, 06:55 PM
Oct 2018

A cracked bell does nor ring. A cracked cup leaks. A cracked record no longer plays. A cracked tooth is exquisitely painful. Not everything has a crack, and most things with cracks are less useful.

Your quote is poetic, but wrong. Nicely written words are not necessarily true.

Every statement must be examined for sense.

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)
59. What I initially wrote.
Tue Oct 30, 2018, 07:20 PM
Oct 2018

Which was:

And that crack, that human imperfection, has been expressed in the Bible as original sin.

There is no perfection in humanity, but there is hope, and there is struggle. Thus the metaphor of the crack in everything.


But there is also hope, the hope that the light will enter into the imperfect vessel.
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