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Kang Colby

(1,941 posts)
Tue Dec 20, 2016, 09:48 PM Dec 2016

Why US liberals are now buying guns too

This is one heck of a read.

Lara Smith, national spokesperson for the Liberal Gun Club, says her organisation has seen a "huge" rise in enquiries since November's election and a 10% increase in paid members.

Many expected the election of Donald Trump, whose candidacy was backed by the National Rifle Association, to bring an end to the panic buying. Shares in gun manufacturers dropped by as much as 18% following his victory.

But instead FBI background checks for gun transactions soared to a new record for a single day - 185,713 - during the Black Friday sales on 25 November, according to gun control news site The Trace.


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38297345?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

95 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why US liberals are now buying guns too (Original Post) Kang Colby Dec 2016 OP
I Flew thru JFK Airport last Month Best_man23 Dec 2016 #1
Sidenote capricorn_sister Dec 2016 #10
Most excellent. fleabiscuit Dec 2016 #14
Disgusting Truth321 Dec 2016 #2
Gun ownership sarisataka Dec 2016 #4
With Hillary Truth321 Dec 2016 #20
At what cost to the Partys Future? n/t oneshooter Dec 2016 #21
Cost to party. Truth321 Dec 2016 #22
The ban that Clinton signed cost the House, Senate and Presidency. oneshooter Dec 2016 #23
While Obama is a popular Presdient, during his time in office... spin Dec 2016 #60
Excellent post. Kang Colby Dec 2016 #84
Thanks for your support. (n/t) spin Dec 2016 #86
You didn't answer sarisataka Dec 2016 #46
Perhaps it goes against the beliefs of the younger generation of Democrats. ... spin Dec 2016 #62
It could be generational sarisataka Dec 2016 #68
No, living in such an uncivil, sick society that we have to arm ourselves Warpy Dec 2016 #55
Then, don't carry/own one. yagotme Dec 2016 #73
Risk? tortoise1956 Dec 2016 #74
Your personal experience means Emilybemily Dec 2016 #82
From your second link ... Straw Man Dec 2016 #85
the study mentioned is probably not a valid study gejohnston Dec 2016 #89
Actually, I analyze data for a living... tortoise1956 Jan 2017 #94
Truth321 GreydeeThos Dec 2016 #6
Right. pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #15
Who is "we"? I noticed this was asked of you by another poster, why didn't you answer? Marengo Dec 2016 #24
I think we scared him. oneshooter Dec 2016 #35
More and more the US is becoming more violent and IMO all people just want to protect themselves RKP5637 Dec 2016 #3
Hate to say it, Wellstone ruled Dec 2016 #5
As long as you follow all of the rules and regulations of the State and Federal Law. oneshooter Dec 2016 #8
Not a Gun person. Wellstone ruled Dec 2016 #13
Obviously. Straw Man Dec 2016 #19
Not really... tortoise1956 Dec 2016 #75
The good news is it's not too late to be progressive on the 2A. ileus Dec 2016 #7
Yes, I never understood yagotme Dec 2016 #11
Hear hear! pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #16
and of course, when more school kids get shot DonCoquixote Dec 2016 #26
Your response might have been better without the Lovejoyism friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #27
would you prefer numbers of corpses? DonCoquixote Dec 2016 #30
And the number of said corpses is declining, a statistic that you lot are loathe to admit friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #31
and we still lead the world DonCoquixote Dec 2016 #32
Do you have a solution that doesn't require blaming those not responsible? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #33
there are solutions DonCoquixote Dec 2016 #34
What is "military grade ammo"? n/t oneshooter Dec 2016 #36
I've always been amused by the fact........ pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #37
This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #44
full metal jackets, teflon "cop killers" DonCoquixote Dec 2016 #38
FMJ is actually less lethal, gejohnston Dec 2016 #40
The "cop killer bullet" myth was given up on looong ago. pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #41
I know I was... yagotme Dec 2016 #42
Gun prohibitionists are like the GOP in one respect: They rely on low-information voters... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #45
What I could never understand, yagotme Dec 2016 #47
And that's the giveaway that gun restriction is a *religion*. pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #51
I compare restriction supporters to Faux News viewers. pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #50
are the amout of gun deaths lies DonCoquixote Dec 2016 #57
"I do not care about Johnny d(e)er hunter" That remark helps illustrate *why* gun control is a wreck friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #63
Rifles with magazines, clips, tube feeds... of all sizes... discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2016 #64
"Are the amount of gun deaths lies?" pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #66
You tell us sarisataka Dec 2016 #71
one reason is population gejohnston Dec 2016 #72
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2017 #95
Oh for god's sake give it up Emilybemily Dec 2016 #83
Wouldn't it be accurate to say... discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2016 #88
Yes, it would. Unfortunately, that reduction causes no small amount of anhedonia... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #91
Not at all- I merely pointed out that the rate of increase of said bodies is decreasing... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #90
Thank you. 50 Shades Of Blue Dec 2016 #54
Thank you for what, exactly? pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #69
This message was self-deleted by its author Paladin Dec 2016 #9
RW extremists expect liberals to tremble, pee yellow fluid and cow down. This is the strerotype... Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #12
A lot of that "snowflake" stuff... MountCleaners Dec 2016 #18
Anecdote for you all. Kang Colby Dec 2016 #17
Somebody cleaned out your yagotme Dec 2016 #25
you guys are nuts jodymarie aimee Dec 2016 #28
"Progressive DEMS are not gun people. Period." Oh, reeeally?: friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #29
Right. pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #39
Is Vermont a true red state?? yagotme Dec 2016 #43
Yup ---- the hypocrisy is without bounds with the restrictionistas. pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #52
Why not? sarisataka Dec 2016 #49
That is the most ignorant thing I have read in a long while Ghost OF Trotsky Dec 2016 #67
Welcome to DU and the group discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2016 #79
Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #48
Not this liberal. 50 Shades Of Blue Dec 2016 #53
As is your choice. Please allow each of us the same choice. n/t oneshooter Dec 2016 #56
If it were up to me no one would be allowed to have a gun. 50 Shades Of Blue Dec 2016 #58
Well then it seems WE are fortunate that YOU are not the Emperor and still have a choice. n/t oneshooter Dec 2016 #59
I value life. Not guns or an obsolete, misinterpreted excuse to 50 Shades Of Blue Dec 2016 #61
I also value life. oneshooter Dec 2016 #65
We value life as well. Your ugly innuendo explains why we lose elections. NT pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #70
Gun owners don't value life? Marengo Dec 2016 #87
In a violent crime there are two lives at risk sarisataka Dec 2016 #92
As likely has already correctly noted J_William_Ryan Dec 2016 #76
I always have bought guns and support the Second Ammendment but think every gun sale should doc03 Dec 2016 #77
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2016 #78
The NRA is celebrating. Truth321 Dec 2016 #80
Yes, celebrating Democratic Beltway obsession with gun control. Standing rib roasts. Eleanors38 Dec 2016 #93
We better start arming and training. Bozvotros Dec 2016 #81

Best_man23

(5,122 posts)
1. I Flew thru JFK Airport last Month
Tue Dec 20, 2016, 09:55 PM
Dec 2016

Talked with a nice gentleman while waiting for my flight. He told me he was Jewish and the topic of the election and tRump came up. He told me he had a business and did not fear Mr. Trump, but he did fear tRump's followers.

IMO, this is why liberals and minorities are now buying guns, its to protect themselves against tRump's angry, psychotic horde.

 

Truth321

(93 posts)
20. With Hillary
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 07:20 AM
Dec 2016

We were going to get a real supreme court justice in. And overturn that stupid Heller decision. We were finally going to make progress on the gun problem.

 

Truth321

(93 posts)
22. Cost to party.
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 09:39 AM
Dec 2016

Guess now we're changing with the wind. We now pro life so we get more votes? This is silly.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
23. The ban that Clinton signed cost the House, Senate and Presidency.
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 11:27 AM
Dec 2016

This is according to Bill Clinton own book.

How many votes did Hillery lose due to her stance on gun control?

spin

(17,493 posts)
60. While Obama is a popular Presdient, during his time in office...
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 06:56 PM
Dec 2016

the Democratic Party lost control of both Houses of Congress, a number of governorships and over 900 seats in state legislatures.

I come from a long line of Democrats who worked in the iron and steel mills of Pennsylvania. All of these Democrats owned and used firearms and several used their weapons for legitimate self defense.

When I go shooting at target ranges I find most shooters say they are Republican. As a registered Democrat I find myself often as the odd one in the bunch and take a lot of good natiured razing. However when i have discussed politics with other shooters I find they often agree with many of the ideas the Democratic Party favors. Unfortunately they tell me that even so they could never vote for a Democrat as they oppose gun bans and limits on the amount of rounds a magazine can hold. In their opinion a new Federal Assault Weapons Ban is just the first step to the imposition of gun laws similar to those the Great Britain on the citizens of our nation.

There are at least 80,000,000 gun owners in our nation and a significant percentage turn out at the polls to vote against any and all candidates who support gun bans and restrictions on common firearms.

In my opinion it is quite possible that the gun owners in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Florida may have cost Hillary the necessary electoral votes she needed to win the Presidency. Consequently we ended up with Trump in the Oval Office.

Most gun owners I talk with do wish to see some improvements to our existing gun laws. First they want to see existing gun laws enforced. They are open to improvements to our NICS background check system. They would like to see the straw purchases of firearms and the smuggling of weapons for sale in our inner cities stopped. However they do no favor any form of federal gun registration and of course oppose any firearm bans.

I am now 70 years old. I understand that the Democratic Party has changed significantly over my lifetime. I still support many of the concepts our party stands for but I personally feel that our efforts to push for gun bans and strong laws like those in Great Britain are a ball and chain around the ankle of our party.

Now I understand that many Democrats are buying firearms because Trump became our President. Support for many of the gun control ideas our party has proposed is even diminishing in our own ranks.



 

Kang Colby

(1,941 posts)
84. Excellent post.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 01:42 AM
Dec 2016

I always enjoy your contributions to these discussions. It's clear you have a knack for informative writing.

I couldn't agree more with your post.

sarisataka

(20,992 posts)
46. You didn't answer
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 10:11 PM
Dec 2016

My question

Gun ownership goes against everything we believe in?
In other words, is gun ownership incompatible with being a Democrat?

spin

(17,493 posts)
62. Perhaps it goes against the beliefs of the younger generation of Democrats. ...
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 07:16 PM
Dec 2016

I come from a long line of Democrats who valued gun ownership. I have enjoyed target shooting handguns for most of my life and currently have a carry permit. But then I am 70 years old. You might call me a dinosaur Democrat.



I'm so damn old and so much of a dinosaur that I still like wheel guns for self defense. My carry gun is either a S&W Model 642 .38 snub nose or a S&W 351PD AirLite 22 Magnum. My home protection weapon is a 12 gauge double barreled coach gun.

sarisataka

(20,992 posts)
68. It could be generational
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:53 PM
Dec 2016

At this evening's mass we had four people known to be armed. One is a police chief, one a deputy sheriff, myself and another retired military. We had discussed the warnings of possible attacks. While all agreed the chances of such an incident at our little church is about zero it was felt a prudent precaution to have one of us near each entrance.

Everyone of us has been lifelong Democrats who supported candidates from Mondale to Wellstone to Obama and beyond.

Warpy

(113,130 posts)
55. No, living in such an uncivil, sick society that we have to arm ourselves
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 05:35 PM
Dec 2016

against fellow Americans. Trump Chumps are unhinged and I can't second guess anyone who undertakes the incredible risk of having a gun in the home. It's not a risk I'm willing to accept but that's just me. Besides, with my eyesight, I'd be a menace with a firearm.

yagotme

(3,816 posts)
73. Then, don't carry/own one.
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 05:09 PM
Dec 2016

That's called choice. Allow me to make my own choice, like any good progressive would.

tortoise1956

(671 posts)
74. Risk?
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 09:00 PM
Dec 2016

Funny thing...I have spent all 60 years of my life in a house with weapons, and none of them have ever hurt me. Or anyone else, for that matter. Before that. my father spent all of his life in a house with guns, and none of THEM ever hurt anyone either. Before him, my grandfather grew up with guns, and once again no injuries.

So, based on personal experience, my family has had guns in the house for at least the last 3 generations, since 1892, with no casualties at all. To go even further, no one, at least in my fairly wide circle of gun-owning friends, has ever been hurt by a gun.

As for arming myself, my guns have little to do with self defense, and a lot to do with trying to maintain a skill - target shooting - I learned as a kid. Face it, I'm running out of hobbies. I had to give up archery, because an old shoulder injury caught up with me. I had to give up running because of bunions on both feet. Golf is becoming less fun because of my feet, and bowling is problematic if I cant find shoes to fit over those outrigger bunions. Shooting is something I can still do.

I intend to keep on shooting until I am no longer able to wither see the target, or hold the gun on target. At that point, I may jsut hang out at the range and tell stories to people who don't move fast enough to get away from me...

Emilybemily

(204 posts)
82. Your personal experience means
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 12:07 AM
Dec 2016

ZILCH. First of all that's the logical fallacy of small numbers. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Second, statistically a person is much more likely to be hurt or killed by a gun if one is in their home than if they don't have one. That is a fact.

But if you don't want to understand statistics and facts, "shrug."

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/01/good_guy_with_a_gun_myth_guns_increase_the_risk_of_homicide_accidents_suicide.html

http://www.bradycampaign.org/risks-of-having-a-gun-in-the-home

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check

Straw Man

(6,771 posts)
85. From your second link ...
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 04:01 AM
Dec 2016
An estimated 41% of gun-related homicides and 94% of gun-related suicides would not occur under the same circumstances had no guns been present (Wiebe, p. 780).

Holy crap! They have established, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no one can be shot when there is no gun present!

Here's an idea: Let's parse those "statistics" about keeping a gun in the home, and factor in alcohol abuse, drug abuse, and a history of criminal behavior. Then let's see what kind of numbers we get.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
89. the study mentioned is probably not a valid study
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:34 AM
Dec 2016

First, the department and Hemenway's salary is funded by the Joyce Foundation, the same people who astro turfs the Brady Campaign and VPC. Chances are, the study has never been peer reviewed. Hemenway himself is an activist, not an agnostic researcher. He, and other gun control public health researchers engage in advocacy scholarship. That is a nice way of saying shill study. He and the Bloomberg school of public health at Johns Hopkins start with the conclusions they want and create a "study" to get the desired results. It isn't unique to the gun prohibition lobby of course. Climate change "skeptics" and "health studies" funded by the junk food industry.

Hemenway's study often cites a study by ER doc named Author Kellerman. He started with the "more likely than" series. For years, Kellerman resisted peer review, after the CDC gave him millions for the study. When he finally submitted his raw data etc for peer review by a couple of criminologists. His first number was 64 times more likely to shrank to 27 then to 2.5 without ever coming up with a valid study.
If you actually read the Kellerman study, gun ownership (even though there was no evidence any of the home invasion victims owned the gun they were killed with) was one of the lowest risk factors. What topped them? Renting, smoking pot, drinking alcohol, among others.

tortoise1956

(671 posts)
94. Actually, I analyze data for a living...
Sun Jan 1, 2017, 04:13 PM
Jan 2017

which makes it easier to find the failings in the studies you seem to be so enamored of. These failings have been covered ad nauseam, including posts in this chain, so I won't go into detail. Suffice it to say that they don't hold water.

As for the anecdotal evidence - yes, it is limited to me. However, I would posit that during over 60 years of life on this planet, I have been in contact with thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people, both here and in 7 countries other than the U.S. Surely, if guns were so dangerous, there would be at least one firearms homicide that touched me or those that I know.

In the absence of such evidence, I will once again state that guns, by themselves, are not the homicide multiplier. There is more evidence to this - consider that rural households are more likely to have firearms in the house than urban dwellers, yet the highest rates of firearms crimes are in urban population centers. That is a pretty good indicator that the real culprit here is not the gun themselves, but the conditions under which the people committing the crimes are raised and taught.

I can tell you that in real life, the rural areas that I, as well as my friends and acquaintances from the same general background, grew up in, we were taught to respect others until given reason not to, to believe in the rule of law, and that public service was not meant to enrich yourself. I realize these views are now considered old-fashioned by some, but they seemed to work pretty well for quite some time, and still do in many areas of this country...

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
15. Right.
Wed Dec 21, 2016, 03:41 PM
Dec 2016

Because progressives have always favored restriction of rights rather than the expansion of rights.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
35. I think we scared him.
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 06:49 PM
Dec 2016

After all "we" are not part of"them", so "we" can not discuss firearms law with"them"

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
3. More and more the US is becoming more violent and IMO all people just want to protect themselves
Tue Dec 20, 2016, 10:42 PM
Dec 2016

for many reasons. Mace and a taser only go so far when one has a nut with a gun at the door.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
5. Hate to say it,
Wed Dec 21, 2016, 12:43 AM
Dec 2016

we have never needed to carry a piece when exploring or prospecting. Those days are gone,have had encounters with wannabe Militia/Sov-Cit's types. Guy's it is not fun. And these folks are more brazen as time goes by. We always carry Mase with us,if you are not strapped,these idiots will hassel you. Long story short,we are doing the Conceal Carry. Never thought we would see that day.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
8. As long as you follow all of the rules and regulations of the State and Federal Law.
Wed Dec 21, 2016, 09:41 AM
Dec 2016

And get some training, a LOT of training. No Problem.

Welcome to the club.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
13. Not a Gun person.
Wed Dec 21, 2016, 02:37 PM
Dec 2016

The rule about carrying a firearm for protection and that same firearm being your greatest danger to you is true. We are encountering people who are more and more brash and belligerent. And in every case this past year,they were white,traveling in pairs,usually both packing,and we have been just plain lucky. Can not imagine what the BLM people are dealing with.

Straw Man

(6,771 posts)
19. Obviously.
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 01:45 AM
Dec 2016
Not a Gun person.

The rule about carrying a firearm for protection and that same firearm being your greatest danger to you is true.

No, it isn't. It really isn't, unless you're suicidal or criminally stupid. Get some training. Use some sense. Stay safe.

tortoise1956

(671 posts)
75. Not really...
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 09:12 PM
Dec 2016

A gun is like any other tool. Use it correctly, and there is no danger. Forget the rules, and thing can turn to shit pretty fast.

As for CCW, that's up to you. I don't carry on my person, but I have stuck a wheel gun in the car a couple of times when I knew I was going to some very bad neighborhoods. One piece of advice - only carry a weapon if you've made peace with the idea that you will actually use it if the need arises. Otherwise, it shouldn't ever leave the house, because all you will be doing is providing arms to your attacker...

ileus

(15,396 posts)
7. The good news is it's not too late to be progressive on the 2A.
Wed Dec 21, 2016, 06:47 AM
Dec 2016

Calling ourselves progressives and wanting rights destroyed never has made sense.

Sad to see it takes something like this to make some on our side see the light.

yagotme

(3,816 posts)
11. Yes, I never understood
Wed Dec 21, 2016, 12:20 PM
Dec 2016

the desires of "progressives" to take away Constitutional rights of others. It's definitely more prominently written than Roe v Wade, yet some think the 2nd doesn't exist at all.

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
16. Hear hear!
Wed Dec 21, 2016, 03:45 PM
Dec 2016

The notion that the Electoral College stands as our "last line" of defense has been tossed around quite a lot lately. In point of fact the 2A was intended as our last line of defense........and if "progressives" can't figure out that it is uniquely suited to assmaggots like Drumpf, they never f*cking will.

DonCoquixote

(13,711 posts)
26. and of course, when more school kids get shot
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:18 PM
Dec 2016

it's all part of the price we pay for freedom, right? We might have done better if we just did outright human sacrifices like the Druids and Aztecs, they would be less efficient than arming the crazed with ak-47s.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
27. Your response might have been better without the Lovejoyism
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:27 PM
Dec 2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

"Think of the children" (also "What about the children?&quot is a phrase which evolved into a rhetorical tactic.[1][2][3] Literally it refers to children's rights (as in discussions of child labor).[4][5][6] In debate, however, as a plea for pity, used as an appeal to emotion, it is a logical fallacy.[1][2][3]

Art, Argument, and Advocacy (2002) argued that the appeal substitutes emotion for reason in debate.[1] Ethicist Jack Marshall wrote in 2005 that the phrase's popularity stems from its capacity to stunt rationality, particularly discourse on morals.[2] "Think of the children" has been invoked by censorship proponents to shield children from perceived danger.[7][8] Community, Space and Online Censorship (2009) noted that classifying children in an infantile manner, as innocents in need of protection, is a form of obsession over the concept of purity.[7] A 2011 article in the Journal for Cultural Research observed that the phrase grew out of a moral panic.[9]

It was an exhortation in the 1964 Disney film Mary Poppins, when the character of Mrs. Banks pleaded with her departing nanny not to quit and to "think of the children!"[10] The phrase was popularized as a satiric reference on the animated television program The Simpsons in 1996,[11][12] when character Helen Lovejoy pleaded "Won't somebody please think of the children!"[13][14][15] during a contentious debate by citizens of the fictional town of Springfield.[13][16][17]

In the 2012 Georgia State University Law Review, Charles J. Ten Brink called Lovejoy's use of "Think of the children" a successful parody.[13] The appeal's subsequent use in society was often the subject of mockery.[8] After its popularization on The Simpsons, the phrase has been called "Lovejoy's Law",[15] the "Helen Lovejoy defence", the "Helen Lovejoy Syndrome",[18] and "think-of-the-children-ism".
 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
31. And the number of said corpses is declining, a statistic that you lot are loathe to admit
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:45 PM
Dec 2016
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s

Meanwhile, your collective approach is still essentially "Let's ban Scotch to fight drunk driving, while further
restricting the sober motorist"
 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
33. Do you have a solution that doesn't require blaming those not responsible?
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:53 PM
Dec 2016

Or are you a believer in collective guilt?

DonCoquixote

(13,711 posts)
34. there are solutions
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 06:22 PM
Dec 2016

gun control that at the very least requires a background check and limits on the amount of military grade ammo. No one is afraid of the duck hunter, but the person who gets an automatic rifle and stockpiles lots of ammo.

I won't dodge your question the way you did mine, if a society is willing to tolerate being number one in gun deaths, to let machine gunning of people become routine, all because some people feel affection for guns, then yes. As is, we mange to beat out Columbia, Mexico, and Iraq in gun deaths.

http://www.humanosphere.org/science/2016/06/visualizing-gun-deaths-comparing-u-s-rest-world/

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
37. I've always been amused by the fact........
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 07:30 PM
Dec 2016

.......that The Controllers are clueless with regard to how amusing they are!

Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #37)

DonCoquixote

(13,711 posts)
38. full metal jackets, teflon "cop killers"
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 07:30 PM
Dec 2016

and stuff that is given to the militaries, but you knew that.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
40. FMJ is actually less lethal,
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 07:46 PM
Dec 2016

which is why militaries use it. The "cop killer" teflon coated rounds were simply media hype about a company that sold its rounds only to police departments.
As for automatic weapons, they have all but been banned since the FDR administration. As for semi-automatic rifles, more people are murdered with bare hands than all rifles combined. It would be more productive for both sides to work together to end the WoD and solve gangs, lead-tainted water, poverty, and food deserts.

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
41. The "cop killer bullet" myth was given up on looong ago.
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 08:01 PM
Dec 2016

Yet folks like you and Rachel Maddow are still puking it out. The teflon wasn't added to increase lethality -- it was used to reduce barrel fouling. Full metal jackets were replaced by hollow points to reduce over-penetration -- and are pretty much only used by shooters because they're less expensive for range practice that hollowpoints......which are kept for self-defense.

full metal jackets, teflon "cop killers" and stuff that is given to the militaries, but you knew that.

Military men are amused. Thanks for proving once again that supporters of gun restriction are unwilling to engage in simple/quick google searches to get at the truth:

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

yagotme

(3,816 posts)
42. I know I was...
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 09:26 PM
Dec 2016

"Military men are amused."

FMJ's are "given" to the military due to numerous conventions, Hague, etc, for the lack of severe damage compared to lead-tipped, or "dum-dum" bullets. The Teflon bullet escapade brought to light in the ?eighties? that cops wore "bullet-proof" vests, leading to an increase of police being shot in the head. This was a LEO-only bullet (not that criminals couldn't/didn't get their hands on them, but they are criminals, after all,) that was not to be made available to the public. Armor piercing rounds tend to make a little hole in, slightly larger hole out. Like getting hit with a drill bit. JHP's do a lot more damage in soft tissue.

yagotme

(3,816 posts)
47. What I could never understand,
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 10:30 PM
Dec 2016

when someone made an error in describing something about firearms, someone would post a correction, and the OP would run away with their fingers in their ears LALALALALALALALALA. If there's something I don't understand about a topic, or I misspeak, I would like for someone to correct me. That's how learning goes.

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
51. And that's the giveaway that gun restriction is a *religion*.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 05:11 PM
Dec 2016
Facts?! We don't need any stinking facts!!

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
50. I compare restriction supporters to Faux News viewers.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 05:09 PM
Dec 2016

It's easy to lie to them due to their absolute hatred of all things gun-related, and because they're being told what they want to hear.

Like blind cult followers, they can be led around by the nose. No lie is too obvious or stupid.

DonCoquixote

(13,711 posts)
57. are the amout of gun deaths lies
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 06:06 PM
Dec 2016

statistics are statistics. Can you explain why other countries have much less gun violence than we do? The one factor is that we allow people to buy guns with little background check, and to carry large magazines capable of killing dozens. Again, I do not care about Johnny der hunter, because his rifle does not have the capacity to shot dozens of people before having to load.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
63. "I do not care about Johnny d(e)er hunter" That remark helps illustrate *why* gun control is a wreck
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 07:35 PM
Dec 2016

Only 20% or so of gun owners in the US hunt. And the >60 million *other* gun owners vote at a far higher
rate than the average voter. Do you really believe they will somehow simply acquiesce or not retaliate against
politicians who try to ban something they already own legally while simultaneously implying the lot of
them are murderers-in-waiting?

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
64. Rifles with magazines, clips, tube feeds... of all sizes...
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 07:39 PM
Dec 2016

...are responsible for less than 3% of all murders. There are many reasons for differences between the US and other countries. A person murdered with blunt object or edged weapon is not less dead than someone shot and killed. Very few mass shootings occur compared to the typical homicide scenario which is one victim at a time. Mass shootings just get coverage. It's same with travel. A single small commuter flight can crash with 60 people on board and make the news on every network but 250 in single incidents on the highway aren't given a second thought.

The answer is not a single all encompassing gun law. The problem has numerous root causes.

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
66. "Are the amount of gun deaths lies?"
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:45 PM
Dec 2016

See........here's where your team paints itself into corners with it's ignorance and dishonesty. First of all, correlation does not equal causation. Restriction supporters seem to forget this logical fallacy when it comes to gun violence. And even so, gun violence is HALF of was it was in 1993 ---- y'all conveniently fail to report this fact when you shriek 30,000! 30,000! 30,000! Gun deaths have declined while gun sales have increased. Ooops. Omission of relevant details is tantamount to lying --- the gun restriction camp is notorious for this behavior.

W/regard to magazine capacity, you ignore inconvenient truth once again. The Virginia Tech shooter didn't use "high capacity" magazines. Magazines can be changed out in just over 1 second.

"Statistics are statistics."

Right. And you choose to ignore those that don't support your (feeble) argument, while purposefully hiding them from view.

Edited to add:

"Can you explain why other countries have much less gun violence than we do?"

Can YOU explain why they kill each other with hands and feet at a much lower rate than we do? Is it because they have fewer hands and feet per capita than the U.S.? We're a more violent country generally. Interesting how the "compassionate" gun control supporter is utterly disinterested in those killed by methods which don't involve guns.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
72. one reason is population
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 09:40 AM
Dec 2016

the other is the number of suicides by firearms. Even when you limit it to homicides, most of them are concentrated in urban pockets.
Take other countries that allow semi autos with standard magazines, they don't have any such problems. They do have a problem with black market automatic weapons. There are also countries with much stricter gun laws than anywhere in Europe that wish we had our homicide rate.

Criminals don't buy guns at stores or gun shows, it makes more sense to work on the actual source.
Statistics are statistics but logical fallacies are logical fallacies.

Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #34)

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
91. Yes, it would. Unfortunately, that reduction causes no small amount of anhedonia...
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 04:53 PM
Dec 2016

...amongst gun prohibitionists.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
90. Not at all- I merely pointed out that the rate of increase of said bodies is decreasing...
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 04:50 PM
Dec 2016

...which would be considered a good thing in most circles.

But not in prohibitionist ones, apparently...

Response to Kang Colby (Original post)

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
12. RW extremists expect liberals to tremble, pee yellow fluid and cow down. This is the strerotype...
Wed Dec 21, 2016, 01:03 PM
Dec 2016

built up over the years. They will continue to push this line, and openly bully liberals. One thing is for sure: Liberals better have a response, and it better be something other than going silent and cowing -- that only puts a tilt in their kilt, and encourages them more. Fortunately, their numbers are comparatively few, and they depend upon and expect media to publicize their successful bullying confrontations, which will leverage their real effect.

The FR extremists know the dynamics of media coverage quite well, and depend on it. Merely complaining about bullying is not a response, but an expected, submissive reaction they depend on to expand their influence.

MountCleaners

(1,148 posts)
18. A lot of that "snowflake" stuff...
Thu Dec 22, 2016, 08:13 PM
Dec 2016

...is because they think that the people they are talking to aren't armed. It would be interesting to see how they would conduct themselves if they knew their opponents WERE armed.

 

Kang Colby

(1,941 posts)
17. Anecdote for you all.
Wed Dec 21, 2016, 08:48 PM
Dec 2016

I went by a local pawn shop today, this is one of those old places. It has been run by the same family for two or three generations. They have a little corner filled with various rifles and shotguns, muzzle loaders, BB guns, bows, all kinds of stuff piled up, totally unorganized . I went in hoping to find a treasure, maybe another lever gun. And DAMN...the pile had been pillaged. Just a couple weeks ago the rifles and shotguns were stacked up like cord wood. There wasn't a damn thing worth spending a little coin on.

yagotme

(3,816 posts)
25. Somebody cleaned out your
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:07 PM
Dec 2016

"diamond in the rough" pile. Hate it when that happens to me. Always a day late and a dollar short.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
29. "Progressive DEMS are not gun people. Period." Oh, reeeally?:
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:39 PM
Dec 2016






If you have any more "no *true* Scotsmen" to post, by all means please hesitate to post them.

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
39. Right.
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 07:35 PM
Dec 2016

Because "progressive" Dems prefer restricting rights to expanding them.

Washington and Oregon allowed their citizens the right of concealed carry long before the "gun happy" states of Texas and Arizona. That's what I call progressivism.

Fear a government that fears it's citizens. Progressives adhere to this concept on all issues but guns. Interesting, that.

yagotme

(3,816 posts)
43. Is Vermont a true red state??
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 09:30 PM
Dec 2016

They were the original "constitutional" (no permit) state. No progressives live there, I guess.

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
52. Yup ---- the hypocrisy is without bounds with the restrictionistas.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 05:16 PM
Dec 2016

You'll hear them cheer progressives states like Vermont, Oregon and Washington loudly.......and go dead-silent when they're presented with inconvenient truth about the gun policies of said states.

Response to Kang Colby (Original post)

50 Shades Of Blue

(10,887 posts)
61. I value life. Not guns or an obsolete, misinterpreted excuse to
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 07:10 PM
Dec 2016

Put owning a personal arsenal with no restrictions whatsoever above that.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
65. I also value life.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:36 PM
Dec 2016

However I value my families life a hell of a lot more than that of someone who would injure them. As we live 4 miles off of the nearest paved road, and it would take the Sheriffs deputy an hour or more to get here, if they knew the way.

You would remove the most effecient means of defending my home and family. Apparently you do NOT value their life.

sarisataka

(20,992 posts)
92. In a violent crime there are two lives at risk
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 04:57 PM
Dec 2016

some value the victim, some value the criminal...

Best case obviously is if both live with minimal harm but if a choice must be made I will always value the victim more than the assailant.

J_William_Ryan

(2,126 posts)
76. As likely has already correctly noted
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 09:21 PM
Dec 2016

Liberals have always been gun owners.

Liberals enjoy the shooting sports and understand the importance of lawful self-defense.

And liberals have always respected and defended Second Amendment jurisprudence.

doc03

(36,699 posts)
77. I always have bought guns and support the Second Ammendment but think every gun sale should
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 09:30 PM
Dec 2016

require the background check. I see no reason any civilian should be permitted to own a gun with a 30 round magazine.
But it kind of looks like any hope of any sensible gun control is dead for at least 4 years and probably for decades.

Response to Kang Colby (Original post)

 

Truth321

(93 posts)
80. The NRA is celebrating.
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 10:05 PM
Dec 2016

Last edited Sun Dec 25, 2016, 11:49 PM - Edit history (1)

For years they struggled to counter gun control pregressives like Ted Kennedy and Diane Finstein and Hillary Clinton. Now the progressives are so busy stocking up on guns and ammo they don't have time for gun control. Caviar and champagne in NRA headquarters!

Bozvotros

(834 posts)
81. We better start arming and training.
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 10:39 PM
Dec 2016

I know many Trump supporters and none of them are gunless. All them have more guns and ammunition then you need for home defense. Some of them way more. A lot of them are veterans. Many are swimming in a Marianas Trench of cognitive dissonance. They are proudly, defiantly ignorant and Trump has encouraged and blessed their fear and hatred of others who look and think differently.

Those "others" include liberals and progressives. A surprising number of Trump supporters are preppers fully expecting the dissolution of civilized society followed by home invasion from starving desperate minority members. They are preparing for war against these enemies and their supporters and enablers. That's us folks. Trump has an army of ready and willing brown shirts who just lack a galvanizing event and some chaos to act on their well cultivated fear and loathing.

Look whose going to be in the White House. That chaos is gathering. We need to be as ready as they are. And we are no where close

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