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discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
Fri Oct 14, 2016, 05:29 PM Oct 2016

(x-post from LBN) AG Maura Healey: We will win gun lawsuit

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141597906

BOSTON — Attorney General Maura Healey on Friday predicted that she will win a lawsuit filed by a national gun rights group over her interpretation of the state's assault weapons ban.

This summer, Healey angered gun rights supporters when she interpreted a ban on assault weapons to make illegal certain types of guns that are similar to assault weapons. Around 10,000 of those so-called "copycat" assault weapons were sold last year in Massachusetts.

The lawsuit, filed by the National Shooting Sports Foundation and four gun shops, argues that Healey's interpretation of the law violates due process and is "unconstitutionally vague, invalid and unenforceable."

Healey spoke Friday at a rally on Boston Common urging voters to cast ballots Nov. 8 for candidates who support gun control.

Read more: http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/10/ag_maura_healey_we_will_win_gu.html
47 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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(x-post from LBN) AG Maura Healey: We will win gun lawsuit (Original Post) discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2016 OP
I hope she wins Jason1961 Oct 2016 #1
why? discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2016 #2
Full auto weapons are heavily restricted Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #5
Has it worked? stone space Oct 2016 #18
they were not shot when they were fully available Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #19
I know that we're better at controling fully-automatics than we are at controling semi-automatics. stone space Oct 2016 #20
so you are for what is effect a ban Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #22
That's not true. Sometimes I talk about gun culture. stone space Oct 2016 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #24
Is what a personal attack? stone space Oct 2016 #25
This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #26
I know that they're restricted but not banned Jason1961 Oct 2016 #3
technically they are banned gejohnston Oct 2016 #4
Hunting is not the only reason to own a weapon Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #6
Why--->>> discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2016 #7
Bicycles kill three times as many people annually as semiautomatic rifles do.... benEzra Oct 2016 #8
I'd like a ban on all modern firearms. Jason1961 Oct 2016 #11
Hows that? beevul Oct 2016 #12
Given that 50-60 million people own semiauto rifles, benEzra Oct 2016 #15
Alcohol is a drug. For some people, guns are not a drug, so your analogy fails. stone space Oct 2016 #28
So I guess you agree with all of the other parts Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #29
Why would you guess that? stone space Oct 2016 #31
On the contrary... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2016 #32
Non-sequitur. beevul Oct 2016 #36
Both are semi-controversial consumer products that lead to some deaths from abuse, benEzra Oct 2016 #37
Every hear of "abstract thinking"? Straw Man Oct 2016 #39
re: "...alcohol and guns..." discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2016 #40
Rate of one (1) rifle homicide per year in MA?? da horror. Eleanors38 Oct 2016 #44
Much of American prohibition history is based on the repugnancy of physical images... Eleanors38 Oct 2016 #42
When's the last time you rode an AR-15 to work? stone space Oct 2016 #21
Why are you obsessed with a firearm Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #27
Are you referring to semi-automatics or fully-automatics here? stone space Oct 2016 #30
I am talking about semi-automatic rifles Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #33
In the Easter Egg Hunt of life... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2016 #34
I like bikes, and I've commuted to work on one before, when I lived closer. benEzra Oct 2016 #35
The last time I carried a rifle to work oneshooter Oct 2016 #45
game warden or hunting guide? gejohnston Oct 2016 #46
Game Ranger in Kenya. n/t oneshooter Oct 2016 #47
I may be mistaken, but haven't you advocated for a complete ban of all firearms? Marengo Oct 2016 #9
Yes Jason1961 Oct 2016 #10
How come...? beevul Oct 2016 #13
Yup. They're not "on the streets"; they're "in citizens' homes". benEzra Oct 2016 #17
Just curious Duckhunter935 Oct 2016 #14
Do you call the guy in your avatar a Democrat? benEzra Oct 2016 #16
Healy is too ignorant and ideologically blinkered to know it would be a pyrric victory. pablo_marmol Oct 2016 #38
Going off the reservation usually doesn't bode well for the long term. discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2016 #41
Healy is also an activist Drug Warrior, joining with the GOP governor of MA. Eleanors38 Oct 2016 #43

Jason1961

(461 posts)
1. I hope she wins
Fri Oct 14, 2016, 06:10 PM
Oct 2016

I hope Hillary's appointment to the Supreme Court tips the scales and they reverse the Heller decision.

I hope this lawsuit paves the way for a ban on all semi and fully automatic guns

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
18. Has it worked?
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 12:10 AM
Oct 2016
Full auto weapons are heavily restricted

None have been manufactured for civilian sale since 1986.


How many children in the US were shot with fully automatic weapons last month?





 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
19. they were not shot when they were fully available
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 12:14 AM
Oct 2016

prior to 1986.

so there has been no change

I am sure you also know many fully automatic machine guns are still in private hands today, right?

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
20. I know that we're better at controling fully-automatics than we are at controling semi-automatics.
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 12:23 AM
Oct 2016

A reasonable compromise approach might be to treat semi-automatics more like fully-automatics.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
22. so you are for what is effect a ban
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 12:31 AM
Oct 2016

OK. Will not happen anytime soon. Fully automatic machine guns were never in hundreds of millions of private hands and not used for many lawful purposes that semi-automatic rifles are. The funny thing is semi-automatic rifles are the ones used the least in murders and crime but that is all you seem to talk about.

Response to stone space (Reply #23)

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
25. Is what a personal attack?
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 01:03 AM
Oct 2016
Is that a personal attack?

Not very nice and not a true statement at all.


Saying that I sometimes talk about gun culture?



Why is gun culture so predatory?

Response to stone space (Reply #25)

Jason1961

(461 posts)
3. I know that they're restricted but not banned
Fri Oct 14, 2016, 08:21 PM
Oct 2016

I don't think Ted Nugent or anyone else should have a machine gun and I don't think anyone should have a semiautomatic firearm.

You can hunt with a bolt action rifle or pump action shotgun.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
4. technically they are banned
Fri Oct 14, 2016, 08:46 PM
Oct 2016

since the registry is closed, only the ones registered before that date are legal to own. The same is true in Canada, where machine gun ownership was much easier until 1977. You can still transfer and own them there, if you have a license for prohibited weapons.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/prohibited-prohibe-eng.htm

I don't think anyone should have a semi-automatic firearm.
Not a valid reason to change public policy, and is illiberal. The liberal values this country puts the individual above "the community". Any other view is authoritarian.

You can hunt with a bolt action rifle or ppump-actionshotgun.
There are several target competitions that use semi autos. Besides, after semi autos will be pump and bolt action "sniper rifles". See Australia and lever action shotguns.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
7. Why--->>>
Fri Oct 14, 2016, 10:01 PM
Oct 2016

I was asking "for what cause, reason, or purpose" you want these items banned.
What do you hope to accomplish, how does such a ban advance that and why do you think that?

I believe you're wrong so convince me. Show me some logic or evidence.

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
8. Bicycles kill three times as many people annually as semiautomatic rifles do....
Sat Oct 15, 2016, 08:54 AM
Oct 2016

and rifles as a class are the least misused of all weapons. Even the Liberal Gun Club forum is dominated by semiauto rifle shooters. I think you are either misinformed about the scope of rifle misuse, or in deep denial about the prevalence of semiautos in U.S. homes, including Dem and indie households.

Not just the USA, either; semiautos are legal and popular in Canada, most of Europe, New Zealand, etc., and even UK residents can own semiauto shotguns and semiauto .22LR rifles of unlimited capacity, if they so choose.

It's ironic that your avatar is a picture of an avid semiauto shooter who was murdered with a bolt-action.

The thing is (and I pointed this out in another thread), if all semiautos were banned (not going to happen), the professional gun-control lobby would simply switch to demonizing "Saturday Night Specials", "Vest Busters", "Big Boomers", "Sniper Rifles", "Combat Shotguns", "Riot Guns", "Silent Killers" (.22LR assassin's weapons, dontchaknow), and "Cop-Killer Bullets". Pumps and levers fall under the "assault weapons" catch-all, anyway.

Or would you be OK with people owning this pump-action?





Only a tiny minority of gun owners hunts, FWIW, so the hunting canard is irrelevant. If other guns were banned, you'd be saying "You can hunt with a bow, nobody needs a military-style sniper rifle" anyway.

Jason1961

(461 posts)
11. I'd like a ban on all modern firearms.
Sat Oct 15, 2016, 02:53 PM
Oct 2016

How many kids use bicycles as opposed fo assault weapons?

Bicycles also kill more people than nuclear weapons every year but I don't want those in streets either.

I'd like to see a ban on all modern firearms eventually but I know it won't happen over night.

The guns pictured in your post just provide more evidence that the gun industry will do everything it can to skirt the law.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
12. Hows that?
Sat Oct 15, 2016, 05:15 PM
Oct 2016
The guns pictured in your post just provide more evidence that the gun industry will do everything it can to skirt the law.


Hows that? How do those guns 'skirt the law'?

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
15. Given that 50-60 million people own semiauto rifles,
Sat Oct 15, 2016, 10:27 PM
Oct 2016

I think the fact that they kill *fewer* people than shotguns, revolvers, knives, clubs, and even bare hands---making them among the least misused of all weapons---demonstrates that the obsession with rifle stock styling, and criminalizing responsible ownership thereof, is wrongheaded and counterproductive.



As to the nukes analogy, a .22 caliber non-automatic civilian rifle is many orders of magnitude less dangerous than a nuke, both in terms of storage and in terms of accidental or intentional misuse. I think banning alcohol is a better analogy than nuclear weapons, since alcohol and guns are both popular consumer products that are commonly enjoyed by a substantial fraction of the population, but with a very small percentage of misuse as well, and which a minority wish to outlaw on moral or pragmatic grounds---except that alcohol kills about 250 times as many people annually as rifles do.

As to banning only modern firearms, I don't think you'd really be OK with us owning guns from the 1830s through the 1870s either, since rate of aimed fire with a lever-action is pretty comparable to that of a modern semiauto, and I believe pumps go back to the mid-1800s as well.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
28. Alcohol is a drug. For some people, guns are not a drug, so your analogy fails.
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 01:16 AM
Oct 2016

Or more precisely, the alcohol analogy only applies to those who relate to their guns as a drug.

That's not all gun owners, only a subset of all gun owners.



benEzra

(12,148 posts)
37. Both are semi-controversial consumer products that lead to some deaths from abuse,
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 11:43 AM
Oct 2016

Last edited Sun Oct 16, 2016, 06:14 PM - Edit history (1)

and which a minority of zealots who don't personally like them wish to outlaw.

The Federal government puts annual alcohol-related fatalities at 100,000, but let's assume that number is overestimated by a factor of two, so say 50,000 deaths annually from alcohol for the sake of argument. All rifles combined account for less than 350 murders annually (extrapolating from the FBI UCR) and a small number of accidental deaths, with semiautos probably responsible for roughly half. So say 250 semiauto-rifle deaths annually, all told. That's a ratio of 200:1.

Small question: Do you personally drink alcohol? Or do you believe in total abstinence and prohibition?

Straw Man

(6,771 posts)
39. Every hear of "abstract thinking"?
Mon Oct 17, 2016, 03:46 AM
Oct 2016
Alcohol is a drug. For some people, guns are not a drug, so your analogy fails.

Or more precisely, the alcohol analogy only applies to those who relate to their guns as a drug.

That's not all gun owners, only a subset of all gun owners.

Let's see ... alcohol and guns. Potentially dangerous items that are therefore subject to government controls and potentially to prohibition? Yes, I think the analogy holds up.

Your logic is akin to saying that alcohol and cocaine cannot be compared because one is a liquid and the other a powder. Literal-mindedness ad absurdum makes all analogies fail.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
40. re: "...alcohol and guns..."
Mon Oct 17, 2016, 05:07 AM
Oct 2016

I guess that's why there's special agency for them. That's 2 of the 4 in alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives.

I have it on good authority that a former supervisor when appoint me as Secretary of Analogy when he's elected President.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
42. Much of American prohibition history is based on the repugnancy of physical images...
Mon Oct 17, 2016, 04:38 PM
Oct 2016

The pump-action weapon pictured above is essentially the same as pump-action rifles (Remington still makes one with decent walnut), and a bazillion shotguns, which date to the late 1890s. Are these hoary old examples OK by you for for hunting, as you indicate? If so, then why not the example provided by Ben Ezra?

Incidentally, less than 20% of gun-owners hunt. The rest.......

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
21. When's the last time you rode an AR-15 to work?
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 12:25 AM
Oct 2016
Bicycles kill three times as many people annually as semiautomatic rifles do....


 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
27. Why are you obsessed with a firearm
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 01:09 AM
Oct 2016

That is used the least in crime and murders? I would love to hear your explanation.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
30. Are you referring to semi-automatics or fully-automatics here?
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 01:30 AM
Oct 2016
Why are you obsessed with a firearm

That is used the least in crime and murders? I would love to hear your explanation.


I'm interested in fully-automatics precisely because they are used least in crime and murders.

They are also used less in accidents and suicides and school shootings and stuff.

So, my attitude is this:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Leave the rules for fully-automatics alone.

But if it is broke, do fix it. Apply the rules that work to semi-automatics as well.



discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
34. In the Easter Egg Hunt of life...
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 08:35 AM
Oct 2016

...some of us concern ourselves more with the all important egg-shaped indentations in our surroundings rather than the holes in our baskets.

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
35. I like bikes, and I've commuted to work on one before, when I lived closer.
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 11:35 AM
Oct 2016

One of my hobbies is riding singletrack on my old GT iDrive.

My point is that the scope of rifle misuse is vastly exaggerated by those who want to coerce their neighbors into living by their philosophical/religious beliefs on the topic, and being honest about the magnitude of rifle misuse would undermine your case. So instead we get rhetoric about "weapons of mass destruction" and "epidemics of violence" and even (in this very forum) intimations that a bloody fight for confiscation would be justifiable.

Many states have *zero* rifle homicides in any given year. The vast majority of states are in the single digits. Massachusetts, which just outlawed the most popular civilian rifles by executive fiat, averaged less than 1 rifle murder per year in the last 8 years for which we have data.

Murder, by State, Types of Weapons, 2015

[font face="courier new"]Total murders...................... 13,455
Handguns............................ 6,447 (47.9%)
Firearms (type unknown)............. 2,648 (19.7%)
Clubs, rope, fire, etc.............. 1,671 (12.4%)
Knives and other cutting weapons.... 1,544 (11.5%)
Hands, fists, feet.................... 624 (4.6%)
Shotguns.............................. 269 (2.0%)
Rifles................................ 252 (1.9%) [/font]

To put that into perspective, bicycles accounted for 722 deaths in 2014, the most recent year for which I could find stats.

If you don't think bicycle deaths are an "epidemic" that requires coercive solutions and prohibition (never mind, say, swimming pool deaths, or knife deaths, both of which kill an order of magnitude more people than semiauto rifles do), yet you use that level of rhetoric about non-automatic, small-caliber civilian rifles and threaten coercive action against their owners, then you are being disingenuous.

To quote the gun-control lobby, back when rifle murder was *twice* the problem it is now:

&quot O)ur organization, Handgun Control, Inc. does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns. Rifles and shotguns are not the problem; they are not concealable."

--Nelson T. "Pete" Shields, Guns Don't Die--People Do, Priam Press, 1981, pp. 47-48).

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
45. The last time I carried a rifle to work
Mon Oct 17, 2016, 06:11 PM
Oct 2016

Was 10 years ago. It was not a AR15, it was a 478 Wesly Richards double rifle. There was a FN-Fal in the Land Rover for when it was needed.

Jason1961

(461 posts)
10. Yes
Sat Oct 15, 2016, 02:47 PM
Oct 2016

I'd like a complete ban on all modern firearms eventually. I think that there should be strict licensing for muskets but that would be the ONLY firearm you should be able to own.

I know that there won't be a complete ban overnight but if we can get semiautomatic and automatic weapons off the streets it would be a great goal for Hillary's first term.

I don't see how people feel our current gun culture is okay and call themselves a Democrat.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
13. How come...?
Sat Oct 15, 2016, 05:17 PM
Oct 2016
I know that there won't be a complete ban overnight but if we can get semiautomatic and automatic weapons off the streets...


How come you guys always say "off the streets" when you mean "out of private possession"?

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
17. Yup. They're not "on the streets"; they're "in citizens' homes".
Sat Oct 15, 2016, 10:42 PM
Oct 2016

Almost exclusively in the homes of the lawful and responsible, if you correlate the FBI Uniform Crime Reports with ownership and sales statistics...

benEzra

(12,148 posts)
16. Do you call the guy in your avatar a Democrat?
Sat Oct 15, 2016, 10:41 PM
Oct 2016

Because he was a gun enthusiast who avidly enjoyed shooting semiauto rifles, and personally owned an AR-15, an M1 carbine, and a Garand. And rifle homicide was probably higher back then than it is now, since it has been at historic lows in recent years.

Was Eleanor Roosevelt a Democrat, with her concealed-carry license and her views on armed self-defense?

I'd also point out that prior to the first Clinton administration, when the Third Way types decided to go hard on gun control as a way to appeal to right-leaning law-'n-order types (thereby shooting the party in the foot in 1994), support for gun control was an urban/rural thing, *not* a liberal-vs.-conservative thing. Most gun control prior to that time had been instituted by conservatives seeking to centralize power in the hands of elites, and keep guns out of the hands of people with the wrong color skin or the wrong ethnicity. That's true of the Mulford Act in California (signed by none other than Ronald Reagan), NY's Sullivan Law (aimed at keeping guns out of the hands of immigrants), and the Jim Crow gun control in the South, vestiges of which still stand today (like NC's law allowing sheriffs to deny handgun ownership on the basis of subjective "moral character", which was originally code for "has the wrong color skin&quot .

The modern gun-control lobby is primarily funded by a single Wall Street billionaire who believes in stopping and frisking brown people without warrant, among other illiberal police-state positions he advocates.

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
38. Healy is too ignorant and ideologically blinkered to know it would be a pyrric victory.
Mon Oct 17, 2016, 02:27 AM
Oct 2016

Culture war causes enormous political damage. Democrats nationwide will pay for her useless, feel-good edict.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
41. Going off the reservation usually doesn't bode well for the long term.
Mon Oct 17, 2016, 05:10 AM
Oct 2016
"Party of the people" Those words still mean something to some folks.
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