acceptable reasons to kill - conclusions

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

Last edited Tue Sep 27, 2016, 12:55 PM - Edit history (1)

My original questions:

It's the gun group and we all know where it's going. Self-defense is a major reason given for owning a firearm. Is there an acceptable reason to kill? Is there ever?

I'm against capital punishment.
I think police kill far too often.
I don't hunt but I have no problems with non-trophy hunters.

So my question: is it ever acceptable to kill, on purpose?
If so, under what circumstances?
If not, is that an absolute never?

In either case, why do feel that way?

Thanks

ETA:
As of 1 PM ET on 27 September -
Observation/summary of replies:
There were no replies which stated that it's never acceptable to kill.
There were replies stating outright or strongly implying that killing in an act of self-defense is acceptable.

Conclusions:
Killing (especially in defense) is acceptable.

I may yet hear more from those opposed but they have as yet not been motivated to share.

[JonathanRackham]

1. If you eat, you are directly or indirectly respnsible for death.

What is the threshold of acceptable intelligence? One person's bacon is anothers living room buddy.

If my life is threatened then I have a right and need to exert an opposite and equal force to preserve my life and my family's life.

With reguards to meat, eat what you need and not to excess. Do not waste.

In a philosophical way it's native American in concept.

Bad news, in the end we all die, no one gets out alive.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

5. Bad news???

"...in the end we all die, no one gets out alive."

It's certainly possible but I prefer for now to engage in the positive thinking that I'm not going to die. Not only in the next few hours but certainly not the next few months or years. Since I didn't exactly come with an expiration date, I'm not planning or dying at all. Possibly I'll change my opinion should the date involved be far enough into the future and the acceptance of it being sufficiently lucrative.

It just seems like such a collection of negative waves to accept that idea of death. Science and medicine moves forward by inches and sometimes by miles.

Waste is truly the enemy of life.

"When writing the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

[JonathanRackham]

9. Some people unfortunatly embrace Darwin by doing foolish things.

People need to own up to the lifestyles they lead.

Do stupid things, win stupid prizes.

[lastlib]

10. my cheeseburger might be somebody's grandmother......

Hindus consider cows to be sacred, reincarnated family members. But I will give up my cheeseburgers when you pry them out of my cold, dead, stiff fingers.........

[JonathanRackham]

11. That's the beauty of diversity in religion.

We can jump horses as needed.

Although that eternal damnation clause caught my eye.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

12. but reinCARNATION is when you come back as a flower.........

[JonathanRackham]

16. In a field full of hungry deer.

[gordianot]

2. All life is based on the death or exploitation of something else .

No human I know is capable of photosynthesis for all you fellow killers out there.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

6. Economy in ruthlessness is civilization n/t

[Eleanors38]

3. One quibble: Fair-chase trophy hunting is ecologically sound; in fact beneficial

for prey animals like deer. To shoot any, say, buck deer is to rather blindly kill off potential "trophy" size deer and thus prevent their contribution to the gene pool. Once a deer has fully matured and has its biggest "rack," it has contributed mightily and often to the gene pool, and is in decline. Often at his age, the trophy buck is no longer sexually active, but is consuming much of the browse in its range before dying a year or two later.

The problem is some game ranches which keep breeding deer populations in close proximity to each other, thereby contributing to disease like chronic wasting disease. This to say nothing of delivering a hunter to a WiFi, heated deer stand or bline sonthat he/she can "shop" for a deer. This practice is coming under sharp criticism from numerous hunting and outdoor magazines.

Other than that, it is acceptable to kill in self-defense.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

7. I don't mind the taking of trophies

I mind the waste involved in taking only a trophy.

[mackdaddy]

4. "If someone is trying to kill you, then you should try to Kill them right back!"

This is a quote from the series "Firefly", but I think pretty much true.

The big question is: are these persons really trying to cause your death?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

8. "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you...

...it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/dalailama.asp

[tortoise1956]

13. Protection of self or family

I don't hunt, and haven't for more than 30 years, because killing other living things should have a purpose, and hunting wasn't a good enough reason for me. All I shoot now is paper and clay.

However, if someone were to threaten my family - especially my grandchildren - I believe I would be able to pull the trigger to keep them safe. I hope never to be in that situation, but if I am, I have made my peace with what would happen.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. Reasonable, understandable, logical

What more can anyone ask? Thanks

[tortoise1956]

36. Thanks

I don't take this subject lightly. Life is a gift, and it should not be ended without a damn good reason.

[jmg257]

14. All life is precious.

Especially when discussed on public forums.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. "The world is a dangerous place to live...

...not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." - Helen Keller

[jmg257]

19. "Never talk casually about taking the life of another human being

Last edited Tue Sep 27, 2016, 10:16 AM - Edit history (1)

...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

21. "Every man dies...

...Not every man really lives." - William Wallace

[jmg257]

22. "One man's life or death were but a small price to pay

for the acquirement of the knowledge which I sought, for the dominion I should acquire and transmit over the elemental foes of our race."

Walton, Frankenstein

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. "The happenstance taking of human life in defense of innocence is to mourned but never lamented."

-- me

[jmg257]

32. "never insult 7 men, when all you're packing is a six-shooter."

Colonel Sherman T. Potter

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

33. "The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get."

USMC Rules of Gun Fighting #23.

[jmg257]

34. ha - that's awesome! Semper Fi!

"“Great. Now we can shoot at those bastards from every direction.””

Chesty Puller

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

35. Well then, here's the full set:

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring their friends who have guns.
2. If you can, make friends with those on the crew served weapons. Bring them as well. Borrow money from them, it gives them an added incentive to protect you.
3. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
4. Only hits count. Close doesn't count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
5. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
6. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
7. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
8. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived and who didn't.
9. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating (calling for arty or air support), reloading, and running.
10. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
11. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
12. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
13. In combat, there are no rules, always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
14. Have a plan.
15. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
16. Have a back-up, back-up plan in case CentCom or SecDef finds the first two plans "unacceptable".
17. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The only visible target should be in your gun sights.
18. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect your flank.
19. Don't drop your guard.
20. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
21. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
22. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
23. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
24. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
25. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
26. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
27. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. If the posts posts are to be believed the only acceptable use of deadly force is

against gun owners.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. "You know who's going to inherit the Earth?...

...Arms dealers. Because everyone else is too busy killing each other. That's the secret to survival. Never go to war. Especially with yourself." - Yuri Orlov (Lord of War, 2005)

"The problem with gun runners going to war, is that there is no shortage of ammunition." - Simeon Weisz (Lord of War, 2005)

The arms dealers are the evil ones; the rest of us are just doing what we're good at.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

23. kick for the update n/t

[kudzu22]

24. I'm going to nuance your question a little.

Self-defense should never involve deliberate killing. Now, that's not to say that using deadly force in self-defense is wrong. You use such force to stop someone from harming you, which will often result in the attacker's death. But your purpose is to stop the attack, not to kill the attacker.

Subtle but important difference.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

27. re: "Self-defense should never involve deliberate killing."

The use of a means of deadly force in self-defense is generally also the most certain and efficacious means to end the attack. Non-deadly or less deadly means are usually less so and generally not certain to not be deadly.

While this is a distinction, I remain unconvinced that in today's criminal climate and technological stage, there is a difference in practice. Important yes but IMHO not impactful. The only thing that should make a self-defense weapon non-lethal is the good judgement and reserve of its owner.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[ManiacJoe]

25. Hard to find any other reasons than defense of self and others.

If the attack has risen to the level of being lethal, a lethal defense is always morally, and usually legally, acceptable and expected.

That said, the goal of the defense is not to kill the attacker but to get the attack to stop. While the death of the attacker is an acceptable outcome, it is not the goal.

[scscholar]

26. But that doesn't give you the right to decide to kill someone

Besides, you might be misunderstanding the situation.

[Marengo]

29. If someone attacks you with a lethal weapon, are you going ask if you understand the situation...

Correctly?

[ManiacJoe]

30. Absolutely it gives me that right, both morally and legally.

I don't need to be correct about the situation. I just need to be "reasonable" about it.
Reasonable being "ability, opportunity, jeopardy".

I am not deciding to kill some one. I am deciding to use lethal force in the defense against a lethal force attack with the goal of stopping the attack. If the attacker ends up dying, that is his own fault, not mine.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

28. re: "While the death of the attacker is an acceptable outcome, it is not the goal."

Agreed as I said upthread.

As Thomas Aquinas said:

"Without doubt one is allowed to resist against the unjust aggressor to one's life, one's goods or one's physical integrity; sometimes, even 'til the aggressor's death... In fact, this act is aimed at preserving one's life or one's goods and to make the aggressor powerless. Thus, it is a good act, which is the right of the victim."