Smarter guns can lead the U.S. to safer communities

[SecularMotion]

It's impossible, in this day and age, to pick up a stranger's password-protected mobile phone and send a text. It's easy to steal anyone's gun and fire away.

It makes no sense for lethal weapons to be less protected than communications and entertainment devices. So President Barack Obama wants the government to assist in the development of smart-gun technology, which has the potential to reduce the number of preventable deaths.

The need is great. At least 278 children unintentionally killed or injured someone with a gun last year, and at least 84 have done so already in 2016. Additional suicides and murders have been committed by people using guns that did not belong to them.

Personalized firearms, enabled by biometric sensors or, for example, a bracelet worn around the owner's wrist, would also strengthen personal accountability -- which is not a priority for the gun lobby.

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/05/smarter_guns_can_lead_the_us_t.html

[ManiacJoe]

1. Great ideas, but the tech is not there yet.

The op/ed authors don't seem that knowledgeable on the subject.

[flamin lib]

24. Yes, the tech is there and mouthing gun propaganda doesn't change that fact. nt

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

29. Where?

Colt firearms, one of the oldest and most trusted name in firearms almost went broke trying to develop that technology.

[flamin lib]

31. Armitex and Mossberg. Google ks your friend, educate yourself. nt

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

32. I don't own a shotgun.

I don't need a shotgun.

Handguns...?

Rule: no batteries.

[flamin lib]

34. Ya know, Google is your friend. Please educate yourself and stop wasting bandwidth. nt

[Straw Man]

35. There is nothing viable on the market.

Google is your enemy. Stop wasting bandwidth misleading people.

[flamin lib]

37. There is nothing on the market because gun nuts issue death threats to anyone who puts a smart gun

in stock cor sale.

Gun nuts will believe anything their overlords say to them.

Suppressors will save your hearing. yeah, right. They just make your gun longer which is the real draw. All gun nuts want a longer gun, right?

Obama is coming to take your guns away!

Smart guns aren't reliable.

Any other gun wisdom you want to spew?

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

39. On the Mossberg website....

Mr. Mossberg looks happy. He does not seem to be very threatened.

Batteries are the problem. Who in the modern world has not ever dealt with dead batteries?

Wet electronics. A device (coin, token, ring, watch) could go missing.

Smith and Wesson pre-lock handguns are commanding ever increasing prices these days.

Who ever would have thought that a $300 to 500 dollar pre-lock Smith would be worth over 1K these days?

[flamin lib]

41. And you might fotget to load your gun. If this, if that, if frogs had wings they wouldnt

bust their ass every time they jump.

You're just being obstinate and repeating gun lobby propaganda.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

42. I just do not see....

...what a gizmo can do that a locked case cannot do.

[Straw Man]

44. Funny ...

There is nothing on the market because gun nuts issue death threats to anyone who puts a smart gun

in stock cor sale.

... that Mossberg doesn't mention that in any of the interviews. He doesn't appear to be deterred.

Suppressors will save your hearing. yeah, right. They just make your gun longer which is the real draw. All gun nuts want a longer gun, right?

So people pay $200 for a tax stamp, fill out the ATF paperwork, get local law enforcement to sign off, and wait up to 10 months so that they can have a longer gun? Why don't they just buy a gun with a longer barrel in the first place? Then they wouldn't have to jump through all those hoops. Hoops that, by the way, they also have to jump through if they wish to own a short-barreled rifle (SBR). Isn't that kind of counter-intuitive?

Or they could just attach an empty tube to the barrel of gun: faux-silencer. No tax stamp, no approval, no waiting. Presto: longer gun!

Smart guns aren't reliable.

They haven't been proven reliable. Can you see the difference? I knew that you could.

Any other gun wisdom you want to spew?

No, that'll do. Any other counterfactual propaganda that you wish to spew?

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

36. Love these guys....

.....so polite.

As you requested....

http://www.engadget.com/2014/05/12/smart-gun-explainer/

And then there are specific technical limitations. Smart guns rely on batteries to power their various safety systems. Should that battery die, the gun could fail to fire. In fact, most models designed for civilian use are designed to fail if the battery dies. It's been suggested that smart guns designed for law enforcement should automatically disable the safety if the battery dies. There are similar issues with biometric scanners, which have serious trouble reading fingerprints if your hands are wet (with panicked sweat as you grapple with an armed attacker, for instance). Many of these systems claim they can read a fingerprint or other biometric and properly unlock the firearm 99.9 percent of the time -- but when it comes to matters of life and death, even 0.1 percent chance of failure is considered too high. And then there's always the worry that these weapons could be hacked or jammed remotely. Which is terrifying.

[flamin lib]

38. Yeah, and your car won't start with a dead battery either. Only thing is your car won't give

audible and visual warning when the battery reaches 30% capacity, about 1000 round capacity remaining.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

40. Does the gun come with jumper cables?

If it does, I'll buy one.

[flamin lib]

43. You know what? I'm fucking done with your willful ignorance. You have just been put on ignore with

about 20 other people just like you because I don't have time to fuck with the stupidity of your commentary.

[Straw Man]

48. I see ...

You know what? I'm fucking done with your willful ignorance. You have just been put on ignore with

about 20 other people just like you because I don't have time to fuck with the stupidity of your commentary.

... that you have studied at the Ron White Academy of Rhetoric:

[beevul]

50. Obviously, the poster named "reality" is at the top of your list.

Enjoy your safe space.

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. Don't you want to hang around and discuss your fraudulent endorsement of the 'electro-Mossberg'?:

The disinterested reader is invited to peruse the following- the first two posts are flamin lib's, the last one is mine:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=191368

3. This is a good product and wo(r)ks instantly and as reliably as the same shotgun without...the electronics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=191410

5. Your argument is sooooooooo tedious.

I have a $35000 pickup truck that won't start without a battery. The difference between my truck and the Mossberg is that the Mossberg gives audible and visual warning when the battery reaches 30% charge. That's about 1000 rounds.

Leaving the ring is tantamount to leaving the gun unloaded.

When are you going to think for yourself and stop regurgitating the propaganda the gun makers feed you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=191415

Tedious it may very well be, but you haven't actually refuted it

As for another thing- upthread, you stated unequivocally that...

"This is a good product and wo(r)ks instantly and as reliably as the same shotgun without...the electronics"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172191313#post3

...while the very article states that this shotgun is not yet in production. Do you
own one, and/or have you had the chance to fire one enough times to ascertain its reliability?

If not, then you yourself are the one "regurgitating the propaganda the gun makers (fed) you"

[Straw Man]

45. As I've told you before ...

... your car battery continually recharges, and you drive your car every day. If the battery fails, you will know about it.

How about the gun locked in the cabinet, left for years, to be used only in an emergency? Batteries have a shelf life. Will you be there to hear the warnings as the smart gun peeps out its last gasps? Probably not.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

46. Don't bother...

...he has the world on 'ignore.'

I come here to inform myself of the mindset of certain types, in case I meet them in real life, and they do stupid shit like run away from me for no reason (the diner scenario, but in the woods).

This past hunting season, I had a lady yell at me for being in a no-hunting area.

I told her I was not hunting, and did not even have a rifle (I had a handgun, but it was deeply concealed)

She asked why I was wearing orange.

I said I like orange.

She asked: Well, who are those two people in the woods with bright colors on?

I stepped a few paces down the trail - to where you could see into the woods better - you mean them?

Huffing, she came over and saw:

My two dogs, wearing red sweaters, both taking a dump at the same time.

True story.

[ManiacJoe]

57. I love the simple approach.

> Yes, the tech is there and mouthing gun propaganda doesn't change that fact.

I just sit back and let your own posts prove you wrong.



I applaud your enthusiasm, but you really need to educate yourself on the topic.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

2. Makes sense, therefore I dont expect NRA to approve.

As long as our resident gun folks vote Democratic in November, I am happy

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

17. Why would the NRA....

..have a problem with this?

Mandating it, yes, even I would have a problem with that.

[Press Virginia]

3. When the President's security detail starts using them maybe I'll consider

considering one

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

4. What happens if....

...the gun gets wet?

[SecularMotion]

5. What happens if your gun jams?

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

6. Revolvers don't jam.

[SecularMotion]

7. Revolvers Don’t Jam…And Other Firearms Myths

If you’ve been around the shooting sports and self defense community for any length of time, you’ve probably heard at least one person say that you should get a revolver for self defense because “revolvers don’t jam.”

While it’s true in the technical sense that revolvers are not plagued by the same common issues as semi-automatic pistols, like any machine, revolvers can and do fail. If you don’t believe me, ask anyone who shoots a revolver competitively, and they’ll be sure to tell you horror stories.

But that’s not the only myth that pops up in the self defense world. With the advent of modern communication technology it’s now more possible than ever for myths to spread. Formerly confined to gun store counters, gun myths are now readily available with a click of the mouse. Here are some of the most common firearms myths you may have heard.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/revolvers-dont-jam-and-other-firearms-myths/

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

8. The article goes on to mention that...

The following can cause a malfunction in a revolver.

- Dirty gun
- Steel casing (not brass)
- Lightweight alloy frame
- Moon clips
- Internal lock

My revolver has none of these concerns.

If it does get dirty, it has a molybdenum disulfide (satin black) coating that will counteract any light fouling.

A modern, full size, well maintained .38 special steel frame revolver is one of the simplest, most reliable mechanisms ever invented in human history that is still in use today. With the possible exception of the Mauser 98 bolt action rifle.

I have had one 'malfunction' in a revolver in my entire life, someone handed me a Model 19 to shoot about 40 years ago and it went 'pop' instead of 'boom.' Primer, but no powder, in the carelessly reloaded ammo. Never use reloads as carry ammo.

EDIT: for revolvers with less than 3 inch barrel, 'case under extractor' is a pain, but just don't hammer down on the extractor rod and it should never happen. Only happens with very dirty guns anyway. But this can only happen after you've gotten six shots off anyway.

[SecularMotion]

9. It can still jam or malfunction just like any other firearm

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

10. How?

'It just, like, y'know.....can!'

How?

Rules: high quality, well maintained, clean, low mileage.... how?

[SecularMotion]

11. Here's a breakdown of the ways a revolver may jam or malfunction

Why Revolvers Are NOT More Reliable Than Semi-Auto Pistols

I remember the first time I heard the myth that “Revolvers are more reliable than semi-auto pistols” …

I wasn’t even a teenager and my father had taken the family out to West Virginia where we were attending an informal “pistol competition”. (It was basically just a row of steel pepper poppers and a table of bowling ball pins that you shot head-to-head against the other guy but to me I thought it was obviously the coolest place in the world.)

Anyways, one of the ‘old timers’ there was talking to my mom about self-defense guns–this must have been in the 90’s when concealed carry was first becoming popular.

The old timer told my mom “You know, revolvers are actually more reliable than semi-autos … because if you have a misfire … you just pull the trigger and the wheel rotates to the next round. All you have to do is keep pulling the trigger …”

http://preparedgunowners.com/2015/07/30/why-revolvers-are-not-more-reliable-than-semi-auto-pistols/

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

13. That article is written in support...

...of semi autos. Not as a critique of revolvers.

Do you read what you post?

Do you have over 35 years of experience with revolvers?

Have you ever kicked in a door of a crack house holding a revolver?

I have.

[SecularMotion]

15. Did you even read the linked article or did you just read the excerpt??

Reason #1: Five or Six chambers instead of one …

An auto pistol has one chamber attached to one barrel. A revolver has one barrel and 5 or 6 individual chambers that have to line up precisely with the barrel in order for it to fire. If due to wear and tear or whatever else, these chambers are off by even a thousandth of an inch, a bullet could shave off a forcing cone or misalign with the firing pin and you’ll get misfires.

In other words, revolvers require tighter tolerances by nature of their multiple chambers … and … tighter tolerances mean they are more failure prone by design.

Reason #2: More parts = More chances for something to go wrong

In addition to the 5 or 6 chambers that have to precisely line up with the barrel each and every trigger pull, the internals of the revolver are no laughing matter. If you crack it open and look inside, it’s like looking at the inside of a watch.

turn on images to see revolver internals

And like a watch, there are plenty of opportunities for these interacting parts to malfunction or get “out of time” causing failure. Compare that to a modern semi auto pistol like the Glock with only 34 component parts (the smaller number of parts reduces potential for technical problems because there are less chances for something to go wrong).

Reason #3: Most Revolver Failures to Fire are “Jams” Not “Malfunctions”

Let’s define our terms:

JAM - a serious stoppage that normally involves a broken part or something of that nature that would require tools to fix.

MALFUNCTION - some interruption of the firing cycle that can be remedied simply and/or quickly.

When the primary reason for a failure to fire, 100 years ago, was bad ammo — the revolver was reliable because you just had to pull the trigger again.

Now days, ammunition is more reliable so let’s look at what else could go wrong with a revolver. These are ALL reasons that a revolver could fail to fire:

*** Excessive fouling under the extractor star can lock up a cylinder (it won’t turn, won’t rotate to the next round).

*** Recoil can cause bullets to wiggle their way out of the shell casing which can also prevent the cylinder from rotating.

*** Cylinder won’t open for a number of reasons (you can’t reload)

*** The ejector rod can work itself loose and cylinder won’t turn.

*** A grain of gun powder can work itself under the extractor star and the cylinder won’t turn

*** Ejector rod is bent (because it was hit wrong during a reload under stress) and the cylinder won’t turn

*** High primer in one of the 5 or 6 cartridges keeps cylinder from turning

*** During reloading you can get incomplete extraction and cases stuck under the extractor.

*** Taurus or S&W “internal lock” has spontaneously engaged and the gun won’t fire

*** Strain screw in front strap of grip can loosen over time, if it backs out enough, the firing pin strike will be too light and won’t ignite primers — failure to fire.

And almost ALL of these are very, very hard to fix in a fight. In fact, it’s practically impossible. They are true “jams” that require tools to fix.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

16. If you actually read this stuff....

You will see that I distilled it down to three things that can happen (#12 below)

Nothing above cannot be fit into the three categories I mentioned.

Bottom line... Revolvers are incredibly reliable mechanisms.

Clean, well maintained, good quality ammo.

Oh, and....

Two revolvers are even more reliable. You've convinced me to carry two revolvers instead of one.

[Straw Man]

18. I think it's funny ...

... when people cite opinion pieces as if they were gospel. Especially people who know nothing about the matter at hand.

When the primary reason for a failure to fire, 100 years ago, was bad ammo — the revolver was reliable because you just had to pull the trigger again.

News flash: bad ammo still exists, and can still render your semi-auto inoperable. Try some Remington UMC pistol ammo and then tell me how reliable modern ammo is. Save money by buying Russian steel-cased ammo and see what happens. Clearing stoppages is part of the drill for semi-auto shooters still, and some stoppages are very difficult to clear.

Furthermore, many semi-auto pistols are "ammo-sensitive," meaning that they won't function well with certain loadings -- bullet shape, powder burn rate, etc. are factors that can affect the suitability of a particular cartridge for a particular pistol. That's why you hear semi-auto shooters talk a lot about what ammo their pistol "likes." Weaker loadings can cause stovepipe jams, hollowpoints can hang up on the feed ramp, etc. None of this is an issue with a revolver.

Semi-auto pistols must be broken down to be cleaned. With new gun owners, this can result in improperly reassembled pistols, leading to malfunctions, some easily fixable, but others not so. Their springs must be replaced regularly. Not so with revolvers, except perhaps for a new hammer spring every decade or so.

Certainly any mechanical device can malfunction. The article describes the ways revolvers can malfunction. The fact remains that such malfunctions are rare. The complexity the author describes is only an issue for the manufacturer. There is no reason for a user to "crack open" the internals of the gun, short of a broken part, and those are very rare. I have a revolver that is over 100 years old and still perfectly functional. It has never been opened, as evidenced by pristine side plates.

Semi-autos replaced revolvers because of increased capacity and quick reloading, not because of reliability issues with revolvers.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

19. Thank you.

I showed up to a range once and there was a guy I knew from work.

Not much of a gun guy, but he owns several semi-auto handguns.

Sig (the real German kind) and a Beretta 92.

Constantly jamming.

Back and forth to the gunsmith. "I cleaned them both but I cannot find anything wrong.' The gunsmith kept saying.

BLAM BLAM CLICK - stove pipe, failure to feed, etc. etc. etc. Both guns.

I'm watching him. Classic isoscoles (triangular) shooting postition.

Hey, I said, save the last ten in each gun for me.

Sure he replied, but neither of these things are working. And they are getting dirtier. Which makes them even worse.

I holstered my wheelgun and walked over. May I? I asked.

BLAM BLAM BLAM .... ten flawless shots, both guns.

Holy shit, he asked. What the ----- did you do.

Weaver stance. Tighten up your grip. Hold back against recoil.

I saw him at work a few weeks later.

"Only had one or two jams since then" he said.

[ileus]

20. Buy an M&P Shield and you'll never have to worry about that.

I have 3 pistols that I trust will save/protect mine and my families lives. If the gun ever fails, I'll either ditch it or put it in the safe.



Life is too valuable...


Maintain you pistol properly, and buy quality and you won't have any problems. Even Semi-autos can be perfect...

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

14. Besides, if you are in a high risk situation....

You carry more than one gun anyway.

Reaching down to an ankle holster for a fresh 5 shots in your J-frame...

It's called the 'New York Reload.''

https://precisionresponse.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/is-the-new-york-reload-faster/

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

12. OK, I will answer my own question.

1) Bad ammo - old or improperly home-made ammo. Solution: use new, factory ammo as your carry load

2) Case under extractor - from hammering down on the extractor rod. Don't hammer down during reloading, only happens if gun is dirty.

3) Backed out extractor rod - will prevent cylinder from opening. Make sure extractor rod is at least hand tight when you clean the gun - as a maintenance check.

Note: # 2 and 3 above can only happen if you have already fired six shots.

As Forrest Gump said: 'That's all I have to say about that.'

[ileus]

21. That's why one is none, and two is one.

While I never carry two pistols on me (sure I may have two or three nearby while out and about) it's always smart to carry a BUG if you're so inclined.

Me I just trust my engineering background and common sense and a single personal safety device. Of course if my DW is with me she always has her PSD.

[flamin lib]

25. Nothing. It functions as designed. nt

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

28. So you are promising...

...that technology that does not exist yet will function as designed?

Smart gun technology is vaporware at this time.

I don't know of any electronics technology that can get wet and still work.

I tried to use a credit card swiper at the gas station this morning. It's raining today. I had to go inside to pay.

[flamin lib]

30. The Mossberg does exist and has been proven when wet, wen soaked in oil, when covered in mud and

under conditions that even military testing doesn't call for. Google is your friend, educate yourself.

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. "When are you going to...stop regurgitating the propaganda the gun maker(s) feed you?":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=191410

[Duckhunter935]

55. Has a test been done

By other parties than the manufacturer that just MIGHT have a bias.

[beardown]

22. KISS. Kept It Simple Stupid

I have a 2001 diesel truck. Not only do my daughter's gear head regularly ask me if my truck is for sale, but so do some complete strangers at stop lights and parking lots. Why? Reason is always around less electronics and gadgets and secondarily stouter materials. Less to go wrong. Easier to work on. Simpler.

My wife had a co-worker who would pre-order a new car every couple of years with NO unnecessary electronics. She even said manual windows, but I don't know if they even had new parts to make a new car that way even several years ago when this was going on.

Now if you need your vehicle and some electronics go out it's a bad thing. Now if you need your gun and some electronics go out, it's probably a much worse thing and much more immediate bad outcome.


Finally, if the govt has pushed hard to build in govt backdoors to encryption and other 'secure' devices, I'm sure that they'll push for a way to disable electronically based guns too. That's a bigger question for civil libertarians.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

23. Water alway f's up electronics.

The body control module on the Impala is on the firewall near the brake pedal.

The front fenders leak in the rain and make the driver's foot area damp.

Eventually the car does stupid shit by itself, like locking and unlocking the doors, warning lights come on, etc.

[gejohnston]

27. a real drag is having the electric window malfunction when it

starts raining. Fortunately I had rain gear on board.

[gejohnston]

26. ever have electric windows malfunction during a rain storm?

and they are stuck down? Your wife's co worker is very wise. The truck I have now is full of fancy shit, which its replacement won't have.
Since when did you have to special order a basic car? I remember having to special order all of the "cool stuff".

[flamin lib]

33. Does your truck have air bags, seat belts, anti lock brakes and crumple zones? nt

[benEzra]

58. And yet a $40,000+ truck with abundant onboard power, unlimited room for electronics,

a benign operating environment, and a less-than-10-year expected life span doesn't have a fingerprint reader to start it, because that technology isn't considered reliable enough even under those circumstances.

On the other hand, my oldest gun is 111 years old and still works with reliability of 0.9999 or better. I'm not sure that Armatix even cracked .95, end to end.

[flamin lib]

60. My point is that all those things I mentioned, which the truck has,

are controlled electronically. And as you point out work.

However, you are incorrect that the automotive environment is "benign". It is anything but with under hood temperatures varying from far below freezing to 200+ degrees F, moisture, dust, vibration and a host of other hostile issues. Frankly, anything that can survive in that environment is as good as or better than Mil Spec in performance.

[Eleanors38]

47. Want a smart gun? Develop one. This is one of the most unregulated economies...

in the world; if you can't begin a start-up here, you'll certainly have trouble elsewhere. Funding should be no problem: Get Bloomberg's Billions behind it. He does believe in the technology, doesn't he? Before long, you will have your smart gun, and will have cornered the market on sales!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

49. Smart guns................ yeah, great idea

A gun that only fires when the verified owner holds it.
Pluses:
- Kids won't shoot themselves or each other.
- Won't fire (I guess without some gunsmithing) if stolen
- You won't have a negligent discharge if you leave the transponder in the gun-safe.

Possible Minus:
- If you need it, and I mean really need it, what if there's a hitch and it doesn't fire?



I remember when smart phones were getting big. A friend had an early iphone. He touted its internet access, the ability to browse the web and other helpful features. He liked the screen size and the great camera that was built into it along with the ability to watch video clips at a reasonable size. He said the wealth of apps was impressive and growing every day. The connection to facebook and social media was very handy.

Overall he only had two complaints: it was expensive and it couldn't make a regular phone call worth shit.
I can't blame anyone who wants to wait a number of years for smartgun technology to mature.

[davepc]

52. I won't support any "smart gun" law that EXEMPTS police.

Here's the text from the New Jersey statute.

b. The provisions of this section shall not apply to handguns to be sold, transferred, assigned and delivered for official use to: (1) State and local law enforcement officers of this State; (2) federal law enforcement officers and any other federal officers and employees required to carry firearms in the performance of their official duties; and (3) members of the Armed Forces of the United States or of the National Guard.

Emphasis mine.

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2002/Bills/A1000/700_I1.HTM

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

54. If you need to have a 'smart gun' fixed....

Do you take to Radio Shack?

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

56. How difficult would it be....

...to make a 'smart gun jammer???'

[beevul]

59. Or a master key. N/T