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krispos42

(49,445 posts)
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 09:09 AM Jan 2016

Let's seriously discuss smart guns

But first, regular "dumb" guns.

A firearm works by igniting a small charge of propellant at the end of a closed tube. The propellant pushes a projectile, a bullet, down the tube at a high rate of speed. The tube, called the barrel, almost always has grooves cut into it to make the bullet spin for purposes of stability; it's the same effect that a quarterback's throwing arm has on a football.

The propellant is ignited by an even smaller charge of an explosive called a primer. The primer, unlike the propellant, is impact-sensitive. It is detonated by the sharp impact of a tiny hard rod called a firing pin and makes a spark of flame.

The combination of bullet, propellant, and primer is contained in a case, typically brass (but steel and aluminum can be used), and is what is loaded into guns as a unit. It's commonly called a cartridge or a "round of ammunition".

The firing mechanisms of guns have been all about the details of how the parts work together to make that impact happen. Naturally, there are many different ways of doing the same thing and the various gun makers have addressed personal preference and other considerations by offering a variety of different products.

There are a myriad of other considerations that gun makers have to consider; for example, the mechanism that extracts used cases and loads fresh rounds, safety mechanisms, magazines, sights, protective finishes, ergonomics, controls, and ease of disassembly and cleaning.

Dumb guns are purely mechanical devices; there is a system of levers and springs and cams and other parts that do a certain task when actuated by the user. There are a variety of different ways to do this coming from different parts of history as well as different philosophies of gun use, but regardless of whether you're shooting the latest Heckler & Koch or a 1873 Colt Peacemaker you're shooting a purely mechanical device.

The concept of the smart gun is that, within that mechanical system there is an electronic element added. The electronic element would prevent the mechanical system from working until and unless a variety of conditions are met. The goal is that only the owner of the gun (and presumably whoever the gun owner trusts) would be able to get that gun to fire.

Let's discuss this electronic element. Broadly, it must do two things: recognize the person trying to pull the trigger and enable/disable the firing mechanism. Let's go after the recognition first.

How does the gun recognize the person pulling the trigger? Several methods have been proposed, including fingerprint/palmprint readers and the wearing of some sort of transponder by the owner. The difficulties of the former I think are pretty well known, especially if you have a smartphone with a fingerprint reader. Sweat, blood, dirt, grime, gloves, and poor positioning can all give false negatives to a scanner. On the plus side, the method is checking something that is an inherent feature of the shooter, or biometric.

Transponders have to be worn by the shooter; the typical methods proposed are some sort of ring or bracelet. This would likely solve the false-negative issue but it introduces two other issues: it is not tied to an inherent feature of the shooter and it works at a distance from the gun.

The use of a transponder would require the owner to either wear the transponder constantly or to have it stored where is could be accessed easily. Since a logical place would be to have the transponder near or in the gun-storage device, this would perhaps not have the anti-theft deterrent one would hope. In either case, the transponder could be stolen along with the gun (remember, carrying a gun is not a guarantee of successful defense).

The transponder also has a detection range associated with it, perhaps inches, perhaps several feet, and this itself is a weakness. If the detection range is very short, then a weak battery could make transponder activation sporadic (remember, cold weather weakens even fresh batteries). Also, if a person is wearing the transponder on one hand and is forced to move the gun to the other hand, the gun might not work unless the person was wearing two transponders.

If the detection range is longer, then if an attacker is able to wrest the gun from the legitimate owner, the gun can still be used by the attacker as long as he is still in proximity to the transponder... which is where you would have to be to have wrested the gun out of somebody's hand.

And of course, the detection method would have the usual potential problems of size (guns aren't very big and don't have a lot of free room in them) and battery life and being able to withstand the pounding of thousands of rounds of ammunition without malfunction.


Now the mechanism itself. The smart gun technology, once it positively identifies the shooter, must enable the firing mechanism. This would probably be accomplished by a little solenoid or actuator unlocking a final safety such as a firing-pin blocker as the trigger is pulled, although I can also envision something like a transfer-bar safety linked, not to the trigger mechanism, but to a solenoid or actuator.

Now, once a gun is stolen the gun's system won't activate the mechanism. But how hard would it be to remove or bypass that system? Admittedly, it would have to be done long after the gun was stolen; the criminal couldn't use the just-stolen gun until he had time to take it apart and bypass the system. But how would that really inhibit the black market in guns?


So these are the difficulties with making a smart gun. Professionals that carry guns will not tolerate the potential unreliability of such a system. When a cop at a domestic disturbance call goes for his gun, he or she can't afford to be worried about if the gun will go off when needed. They simply will not tolerate losing the mechanical reliability of their all-mechanical pistol. And this mentality is replicated in private security, the military (regular and special ops), and private citizens as well. It's a mentality for survival that transcends specific careers. They will not trade in the reliability of their Glock for a gun with the reliability of an 18th-century flintlock.


In my opinion there is no conspiracy to suppress smart guns; there simply isn't any market for them. The people that own or carry guns for self-defense won't accept reliability issues, and indeed often spend money on custom work to refine the firing mechanisms.

The people that own guns strictly for sporting use can keep them disassembled and/or in a large safe with a good lock. They will not take any reliability issues in the field while hunting or at the competition range, but when they're home the guns are secured without the intention of being ready and available for self-defense.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Let's seriously discuss smart guns (Original Post) krispos42 Jan 2016 OP
Most gun technology seems to trickle into the civilian realm ... JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2016 #1
the military would never Duckhunter935 Jan 2016 #3
very clear and well written Duckhunter935 Jan 2016 #2
Thank you krispos42 Jan 2016 #4
Nicely laid out - saving it for future discusssions DonP Jan 2016 #5
A fingerprint function on a firearm would pretty much stop me from shooting. My fingerprints Waldorf Jan 2016 #6
If there are ever any popular smart guns... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2016 #7
Ummm, looks like no takers Chief DonP Feb 2016 #8
Let me know when you get to the serious part . . . flamin lib Feb 2016 #9
Sorry you can't grasp his point, too detailed for a bumper sticker? DonP Feb 2016 #10
Would you trust skydiving with a parachute as reliable as your smartphone's fingerprint scanner? krispos42 Feb 2016 #11
you guys sound just like Lee Iocacca when seat belts were suggested for flamin lib Feb 2016 #12
And you guys sound just like the liars back in the day... beevul Feb 2016 #13
Seat belts are mechanically simple like guns hack89 Feb 2016 #14
facts like that do not matter Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #15
what is the misread or Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #16
You're avoiding the question, which means you don't like the answer. krispos42 Feb 2016 #17
bet you get silence Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #18
Show me a car like that. flamin lib Feb 2016 #19
My point exactly. It doesn't exist because nobody would buy it. krispos42 Feb 2016 #20
A guy walks into a bar... beevul Feb 2016 #21
Thank you. krispos42 Feb 2016 #22
Thats because it IS a serious point of discussion. beevul Feb 2016 #33
The car doesn't exist because flamin lib Feb 2016 #25
Not really discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2016 #26
We're not talking about "fly by wire". We're talking about biometric identification. krispos42 Feb 2016 #27
The title of the OP is " Let's seriously discuss smart guns" flamin lib Feb 2016 #28
Armatix tried to sell their gun in Europe gejohnston Feb 2016 #29
Read the friggin article, will ya? nt flamin lib Feb 2016 #30
I did gejohnston Feb 2016 #34
Well, do you still maintain that smart guns are unreliable and too slow to be of use? nt flamin lib Feb 2016 #36
I don't believe I said that gejohnston Feb 2016 #37
Here's another that is tested, proven and being looked at by police. flamin lib Feb 2016 #31
looked-at != adopted-by Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2016 #32
Doesn't mean they know how it works. DashOneBravo Feb 2016 #35
a little C code in the subject line? discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2016 #38
That car would never be built because no reasonable manufacturer would want the liability. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2016 #24
*Outstanding* OP krispos42! pablo_marmol Feb 2016 #23

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,763 posts)
1. Most gun technology seems to trickle into the civilian realm ...
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 09:14 AM
Jan 2016

... from the military weapon development.

So, when smart-gun technology is accepted and proven by the U.S. Armed Forces, and adopted by Law Enforcement, then I might think it's possibly a good idea.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
3. the military would never
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 09:21 AM
Jan 2016

go for this. I need to always be able to pick up a fallen comrades weapon to replace a broken or non operational one. One of the reasons military vehicles do not have ignition keys for their vehicles.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
2. very clear and well written
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 09:18 AM
Jan 2016

Thank you very much ☺. I agree, when the police use this it might change but even then I doubt there will be a market. I want a firearm that fires when I pull the trigger and not have to worry about a battery. Even for battery operated sights, a backup iron site is a must.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
4. Thank you
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 09:24 AM
Jan 2016

I tried to be clear about it without diving too much into details.

Another poster brought it up and I read the article. It had some poll results in there that I felt lacked context and did not address other issues.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
5. Nicely laid out - saving it for future discusssions
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 10:50 AM
Jan 2016

The whole "Smart Gun" thing is just one more small twig the control fans think they can use to beat gun owners over the head.

They seem to think they are soooo very, very clever to find these things and use them to try and shame gun owners here and elsewhere.

I particularly like how, after bashing the NRA for weeks on end, they use the NRA's supposed support as added credibility.

(Still waiting to find out how, with a private membership list, they somehow polled NRA members to get their opinions on this or anything else?)

"Smart Guns" are a solution to primarily a law enforcement concern in search of a civilian problem. Any time the control guys think they can force gun owners to do anything, it's always a big hit with them. Because it bodes for future laws and con trols they think might pass.

Waldorf

(654 posts)
6. A fingerprint function on a firearm would pretty much stop me from shooting. My fingerprints
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 05:37 PM
Jan 2016

are very very hard to read. Over 5 years of chemo I think have made them disappear. When I got my concealed carry permit I had to get fingerprinted twice. First batch was detailed enough. When I pick up my daughter from day-care I have to use a password. Their fingerprint reader won't work for me.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
8. Ummm, looks like no takers Chief
Tue Feb 2, 2016, 06:23 PM
Feb 2016

Funny, I could have sworn there was a flock of smart gun supporters wandering around here a few weeks ago.

They were all claiming that the "Smart Gun" would be the salvation of us all ... as soon as the NRA, Big Gun, Big Buggy Whip and Toupee makers and whoever else, stopped blocking its development. A lot of them were from the "if it saves one life" crowd, IIRC.

And of course every state must demand that only smart guns be sold and others all retrofitted or scrapped, ... mostly scrapped.

They seem to have all drifted away like a morning fog on the lake under Summer sunlight.

Maybe it's time for them to switch to their seasonal "Health Crisis" mode of gun control operation for a few months now?

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
10. Sorry you can't grasp his point, too detailed for a bumper sticker?
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 11:03 AM
Feb 2016

But maybe we can find a cartoon?

We know how much the gun control people love cartoons that explain things to them.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
11. Would you trust skydiving with a parachute as reliable as your smartphone's fingerprint scanner?
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:48 PM
Feb 2016

Yes or no?

Would you want a loved one, working as a police officer, to have a gun as reliable as your smartphone's fingerprint scanner?

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
12. you guys sound just like Lee Iocacca when seat belts were suggested for
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:35 PM
Feb 2016

cars. People don't want them, they won't help and you're better off being thrown clear of the crash (paraphrasing).

You do realize how wrong he was, don't you?

Now, let me know when you get to the serious part.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
13. And you guys sound just like the liars back in the day...
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:38 PM
Feb 2016

"It will never be a moving violation, they'll never be able to pull you over just for that..."

hack89

(39,179 posts)
14. Seat belts are mechanically simple like guns
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:40 PM
Feb 2016

That is why people trust them. Make smart guns as reliable as seat belts and I will consider them.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
16. what is the misread or
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:38 PM
Feb 2016

Fail to read rate on a fingerprint scanner? What is the failure rate on the simple mechanical seat belt? I rest my case. I will take the simple mechanical weapon.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
17. You're avoiding the question, which means you don't like the answer.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:28 PM
Feb 2016

Speaking of car safety then, would you buy a car with airbags that had a 10% chance of not discharging when the crash sensors triggered them?

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
20. My point exactly. It doesn't exist because nobody would buy it.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 10:34 PM
Feb 2016

The unlocking mechanism for "smart guns" is inherently unreliable. If that's not "serious" enough for you, then perhaps you could tell me what is.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
21. A guy walks into a bar...
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 11:27 PM
Feb 2016

Well said Krispos. You raised the bar, though it didn't help.



My thoughts on the exchange:



krispos42

(49,445 posts)
22. Thank you.
Wed Feb 3, 2016, 11:59 PM
Feb 2016

I fail to see how the reliability of the "smart" part of the "smart gun" isn't a serious point of discussion. I really don't.

Well, that's not true. If you don't own guns and never will, then I guess you don't have to give a shit. But at the same time, since you're not a purchaser of guns either I guess you shouldn't be surprised when the gun makers don't bow and scrape to your concerns.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
33. Thats because it IS a serious point of discussion.
Thu Feb 4, 2016, 04:12 PM
Feb 2016
I fail to see how the reliability of the "smart" part of the "smart gun" isn't a serious point of discussion. I really don't.


Thats because it IS a serious point of discussion.

Anyone who can't see that, has nothing of even minimal value to add to the discussion.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
25. The car doesn't exist because
Thu Feb 4, 2016, 09:12 AM
Feb 2016

THE TECHNOLOGY WORKS.

You found one example of a fingerprint reader that's slow and cling to it like a life raft in a storm.

Reliable technology does exist and some 'dumb guns' can even be refitted to it. The military doesn't use it because it doesn't fit the mission. The police don't use it because it because there aren't commercially available models. There aren't commercially available models because the gun manufacturers don't want to change their manufacturing floor which is basically the same as it was in 1840. Shit, they don't even want to include a mechanical safety devices on popular products like Glock and Keltek.

Meanwhile every commercial airliner and every automobile currently made in this country is fly/drive by wire, the same type of technology used in the talisman technology for guns. As a result cars have become safe to the point that they kill fewer people each year than guns.

Thanks to the talking points sent out by the gun industry spokes people in the NRA, NSSF and GOA and repeated word for word here the technology is killed in it's infancy. The one instance of a gun store offering a smart gun was met with death threats and a boycott. DEATH THREATS because the owner offered ONE model as a choice to his customers.

So, when you get to the serious part, let me know.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
26. Not really
Thu Feb 4, 2016, 09:22 AM
Feb 2016

Commercial airliners are mostly fly by wire. Cars are just not. Not even close.

In every car the safety critical controls feature mechanical connections between the driver and the road. Steering and braking operate by mechanical/hydraulic actuation.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
27. We're not talking about "fly by wire". We're talking about biometric identification.
Thu Feb 4, 2016, 12:14 PM
Feb 2016

The fly-by-wire system is very reliable, especially when it's triple or quadruple redundant. But that's not analogous to this situation. After all, the mechanicals of a gun are very reliable too. And I have no doubt that, once a smart gun's system was unlocked it would shoot reliably.

The issue is UNLOCKING the system.

Would you fly in a plane where the yoke wouldn't budge unless it recognized the pilot's biometrics? Where the computer will not respond to ANY control input unless it recognized the biometrics of the pilot or co-pilot? How about a car? Would you drive a car where changing the throttle, applying the brake, or turning the steering wheel was dependent on the car's computer recognizing the biometrics of the driver as the car was being driven?


So we're back to square one. Biometrics are being used on gun-storage devices such as gun safes. That's all well and good. But those are obviously much larger than a handgun and have much more room for electronics and batteries.


And the transponder issue still hasn't been addressed by you either. I'd personally rather deal with a transponder than a biometric reader of some sort as I see it as more trustworthy, even if it has other disadvantages.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
28. The title of the OP is " Let's seriously discuss smart guns"
Thu Feb 4, 2016, 12:54 PM
Feb 2016

The fact that you now want to move the goal posts with techno-bable about biometrics is a red herring. Like I said, when you get serious let me know.

So you say even that isn't reliable enough, huh?

No standards body, like Underwriters Lab, certifies the reliability of civilian guns. California and Massachusetts do require that a firearm, to be sold there, pass a shooting test. But they ask only that it fire 600 rounds with no more than six failures.

Mauch says the de facto industry norm for civilian handguns is around 5,000 rounds with no more than 50 failures. But at H&K and Armatix, he claims, he has hewed to a higher standard: no more than 10 failures in 10,000 firings. “We tested the iP1 with more than a quarter million rounds,” he says. “You can use it in rain, dust, and mud.”

The iP1 takes two AAA batteries, which will power about 5,000 firings, according to Armatix. An indicator light begins flashing when the batteries still have one-third of their life remaining — i.e., more than 1,000 shots. The watch takes a common button battery, and a watch-face icon monitors its depletion. If the battery is allowed to run out, the gun will not operate.

http://fortune.com/2015/04/22/smart-guns-theyre-ready-are-we/

Yeah, it's only a .22 and it's $1,700. My first calculator was more than $100 and now they give away a better one with AARP dues. There's a 9mm in the works for the police market and with reliability 50 times the "industry standard" it shouldn't meet much resistance on that issue.

This guy Mauch is just another gun grabbing prohibitionist, right? No, he was the chief designer at H&K for 30 years and is credited with designing the most reliable assault weapon ever made.

Oh my! If the batteries run down it won't fire! Well my new $28,000 truck won't start if the battery runs down either but I've been driving for 52 years and the number of times that has happened can be counted on the fingers of one hand. If that concerns you use Lithium Ion batteries with a 10 year shelf life or just change them out when you change the smoke detector batteries.

The technology is here, it is reliable and getting more reliable and smaller every year. I just purchased a Windows 10 computer that measures 1.24 inches by 3 inches by .25 inches with 128 gigs storage upgrade-able to another 128 gig for $250. The price and size of biometrics will come down and even the Ludites among us will adopt.

Welcome to the 21st century. Stop living in the 17th.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
29. Armatix tried to sell their gun in Europe
Thu Feb 4, 2016, 01:36 PM
Feb 2016

before they tried to sell them in the US. Police forces in Europe didn't want them either. It doesn't trigger the German law that once a company makes a workable smart gun, SIG, Walther, etc will have to make them too.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
34. I did
Thu Feb 4, 2016, 06:17 PM
Feb 2016

I have read several articles on that specific gun, and smart guns in general since I first read about the "wedding ring" in the 1970s.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
37. I don't believe I said that
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 11:45 AM
Feb 2016

I do know others have. IIRC, the "wedding ring" actually worked, except it was an expensive retrofit that would work with Smith and Wesson, or its clones, revolvers.
What I did say was that the Armatix had no sales in Europe for reasons having nothing to do with triggering a law in New Jersey or Germany. Either way, the company lost millions of Euros, filed for the German equivalent of chapter eleven,
and, according to German gun law blogger Katja Triebel, the investors fired Mauch and got a restraining order prohibiting him from darkening the company's door.

those who claim to have tested it does make the claim that the Armatix is unreliable. Before I maintain anything, I would need a couple of hours at the range with two or three of the guns in question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armatix_iP1#Review

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
32. looked-at != adopted-by
Thu Feb 4, 2016, 03:29 PM
Feb 2016

But since you endorse bringing technologies that are/might be adopted by the cops to the civilian marketplace I suppose that means you would make this fine catalog of equipment available to the people --

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
38. a little C code in the subject line?
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 05:14 PM
Feb 2016

Have a dash of Linux: "Since we're going out for dinner, let me df my wallet."

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
23. *Outstanding* OP krispos42!
Thu Feb 4, 2016, 01:17 AM
Feb 2016

Bookmarking this thread along with the other hit-and-run thread on this subject to underline the difference in knowledge and integrity of gun rights vs. gun restriction supporters.

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