We regulate lead paint - so why not lead bullets?

[SecularMotion]

When I chaired the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, I was grateful that we had authority to regulate lead in household paint. Banning the use of lead-based paint in homes has prevented brain damage in countless children over the years.

So why wouldn't Congress allow us authority over another dangerous consumer product often made with lead?

Specifically, why not bullets?

On Tuesday, President Obama unveiled a package of executive actions that he hopes will reduce gun deaths in the United States. I urge him to put one more proposal on the table: regulating ammunition. The idea is workable, and Americans could support it.

http://www.masslive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/01/we_regulate_lead_paint_-_so_wh.html#incart_river_home

[Scuba]

1. We do, actually. Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl hunting for years and ...

... a ban against lead bullets was passed in California.

[SecularMotion]

2. She mentions those regulations

Her proposal is for ammunition to be regulated by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission.

[Scuba]

3. I could get behind some ammo sales limitations, but banning lead would only lead to ...

... more use of bismuth and steel projectiles.

Sadly, I believe the only way we're ever going to solve our gun problems is to repeal and replace the Second Amendment.

[flamin lib]

13. There is some serious research into composite projectiles and solid copper as well.

The solid copper is designed to mushroom like hollow points but doesn't disintegrate. The composite rounds are very very fast, approaching muzzle velocities of rifles in a handgun round.

[benEzra]

14. Solid copper bullets for handguns and the most popular rifle calibers

are banned by Federal law as armor-piercing, IIRC. Most of the practical alternatives to lead are similarly banned as AP, because they are harder than lead and therefore more penetrative. The virtues of lead are its density, softness, and abundance. Gold would also work, but obviously is cost prohibitive.

Solid copper is used in some big-game hunting loads (e.g. Barnes X-bullet) because it penetrates like crazy, since it doesn't deform much on impact.

Composite projectiles have very short range, as do aluminum projectiles. The old Thunderzap rounds (LE only) were aluminum, as I recall. I wonder if a .357 could drive a lightweight composite or aluminum projectile fast enough to penetrate NIJ IIIA armor; I know the Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale (that famously took down the Air France hijackers in the '90s, among other things) used to use .357's with AP bullets.

[sir pball]

17. No, they're legal.

Plain copper is kosher, it's only beryllium copper that's restricted (and steel, WC, DU, couple others I can't think of).

.308 w/TSX 100% copper bullets
.45ACP w/TAC-XP 100% copper bullets

I prefer monometals myself, use them exclusively for hunting, but for plinking ammo for my tackdrivers they're just too expensive next to MatchKings.

[GGJohn]

15. Question,

would the composite rounds tend to go right through the object it was striking?

[Travis_0004]

4. probably because lead in bullets is not all that dangerous

I also have lead in batteries and tons of other devices in my house.

[Duckhunter935]

5. I like these, no lead

http://www.polycaseammo.com/project/inceptor-arx

[DonP]

6. Ahh, the "Polycase loophole"

Another devious NRA plot.

I thought the EPA et. al. have already been told to leave it alone, it's none of their business by the courts?

[Snobblevitch]

7. Didn't the EPA close down the only lead mine in the U.S.?

[gejohnston]

9. It was a smelter that smelted virgin lead from ore

IIRC, the place had been out of compliance for years. While there was some hysteria from the usual suspects, the NSSF put out a press release that said bullets are made from recycled lead, and the smelter closing would have zero effect.

[ileus]

8. but.....bullets kill people.

[DirtDart1319]

10. Careful what you ask for

This sounds like a case of be careful what you ask for to me. It's just a thought but lead deforms on impact reducing the chances of over penetration. If lead is banned from bullets then they will have to use a harder lighter metal. This will cause bullets to travel at a higher velocity and have greater penetration. Police officer's bullet resistant vests will be almost useless. Also when there is a shooting, the bullet will have the potential of going through multiple people, walls, doors, etc. Just makes me think you should be careful what you ask for because you might get it.

[Straw Man]

11. What problem is being addressed?

n 2007, California condors were being poisoned by lead ammunition in carcasses left behind by hunters. To save them, Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed a bill banning lead ammunition in state wilderness areas. Do Republicans believe in regulating ammunition to save condors but not children? I don't think so.

Well, unless we are seeing cases of children dying from the lead they ingest while eating carrion, I don't think we have an actionable issue here.

The idea that restricting ammo is the way to reduce gun crime is laughable. Ammo as a commodity is extremely fungible. It is easy to smuggle. It is even fairly easy to produce in a garage or basement. Criminals actually need very little ammo -- even spree killers use less to achieve their nefarious ends than the typical sport shooter will expend in a single afternoon. It only takes one cartridge to commit suicide, which accounts for 2/3 of the gun deaths in this country.

Nope. Ludicrous overreach and culture war. Nothing to see here.

[GreydeeThos]

12. Paint right?

A well cared for building, being necessary to the preservation of infrastructure, the right of the people to apply coatings, shall not be infringed.



Does that sentence say that people can only paint for the purpose of sustaining infrastructure?

[benEzra]

16. Because we don't line babies' cribs with lead bullets,

nor do we cover our baseboards with them or let toddlers teethe on them. If you leave bullets where an infant or toddler could eat them, you will probably find yourself in some trouble at the ER.

Any chance that lead ammo use might be reduced in favor of alternatives was eliminated when the gun control lobby banned the best alternatives to lead as "armor piercing". You can't have it both ways.

[mog75]

18. alternatives

I have switched completely to the barnes ttsx bullet for big game hunting. It is a solid copper expanding bullet with a hollow point wedged open with a plastic tip and is far more lethal. For small game I've been using the hornady v-max which is a standard lead bullet with copper cup. Last summer there were some ammunition shortages, so I was forced to try some other options when I couldn't find the v maxes. I was able to get barnes varmint grenade and hornady ntx. (Nosler also now makes lead free bullets as do most other manufacturers.) Accuracy with the ntx was not very good, but usable if shots were kept under 300 yards. The barnes varmint grenade however is right up there with the vmax, and expansion on ground squirrels was aplenty with both of these lead free bullets. I've only shot coyotes this winter with the varmint grenade, but can say they are performing perfectly with no exit holes therefore preserving the hides(currently ~$65 each).
This is my first experience with lead free bullets other than the TTSX, and non toxic for waterfowl, but so far I'm impressed. Not sure where the idea that they cost more comes from, but they are right there with standard cup and core lead bullets. We're not required to use lead free bullets here in North Dakota yet, but they were my only option last summer so thought I would share my experience with those who might worry about it. It's not that bad, maybe even better.

[Eleanors38]

20. I've seen good reports on copper bullets. Like non-toxic waterfowl loads...

it will only improve with a little time.

[Eleanors38]

19. "Put one more proposal on the table." Oh, just let it all hang out.

Nearly all the lead used at ranges is periodically mined from gun ranges. File under "Never Saw a Regulation I Didn't Like."