Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forum$100 gun tax proposed...
Huh, why not a poll tax, or a "book tax"? She has NO problem taxing a civil liberty, why not be consistent, and tax them all? After all, if it is good for one, it's good for them all.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/bill-slap-100-tax-gun-sales-heads-congress-article-1.2411715
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Warpy
(113,130 posts)and won't discourage well heeled suburban paranoiacs or people buying hot guns on the black market.
Liability insurance is another matter. Buying a black market gun will get you out of it. Being caught with an uninsured gun will carry penalties.
kelly1mm
(5,206 posts)saturnsring
(1,832 posts)so why not
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)high on them.....but I would rather we put a high tax rate on bullets ...no pesky 2nd amendment protecting your rights to bullets to get in the way .
saturnsring
(1,832 posts)
virginia mountainman
(5,046 posts)I can make them by the thousands here at home, and make all kinds of money selling them!! want me to teach you how to so you can profit as well?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Revenuers will be visiting
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)-- Robert Mitchum, Thunder Road.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)SCOTUS has already ruled that ammo is part and parcel of the 2A.
Besides, it's pretty easy to reload your own ammo if you have the equipment.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Tax fraud...
Revenuers will be visiting
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Where did you ever get the idea that reloading ammo is illegal?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)It will be how we recover damages for all the death and destruction wrought by a "hobby" .....its for public safety. The cigarette industry had to pony some up.....gungeoneers would just have to suck it up too...pay a penalty in higher taxes on bullets...to the common good...its only fair to the rest of us.
Tens of thousands a year....
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)a fantasy, meanwhile, I'll continue to reload and shoot my own ammo as I exercise my 2A right.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Days of reckoning always do...
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)by how hard you defend your precious! You all are scared Shitless over the upcoming new regulations that WILL happen sooner or later. Its just a matter of time.....America always evolves.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Whatever you say.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I see you have a GAY rights flag in your sig...
Has America evolved on THAT issue or not? America always evolves....the rest of the world do not have these problems....America always evolves.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Whatever you say.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)because you have nothing.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Whatever you say.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)If you are not part of the solution....you are part of the problem...
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Whatever you say.
virginia mountainman
(5,046 posts)Democrats have lost 900+ state legislature seats, 12 governors, 69 House seats, 13 Senate seats, in the past 7 years...
Who is going to pass it?
DonP
(6,185 posts)When people are caught up in a religious fervor like that they don't listen to reason or logic.
Their only answer will be; "something magically happens" or "just one more SCOTUS judge". They actually still believe that everyone thinks exactly the way they do.
We've been hearing this same old, sad song for decades now and the result is always the same.
The gun control side sits on the couch waiting for someone to do the heavy lifting and pay the bills for them and the only thing that happens is they rush to their keyboard every time some back bencher proposes a new control bill followed by a request for donations, which they ignore.
Then another state loosens its gun laws, violent crime continues to fall, they rush to the keyboards again to bemoan the primitives that allowed this.
That's pretty much the extent of their "activism"
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)I reload ammo using lead weights from a few car dealerships. Is the IRS going to ask the dealerahip who they give their scrap wheel weights too then track me down?
branford
(4,462 posts)is unconstitutional. You also fail to understand the difference between the enumerated individual right to keep and bear arms and smoking, which has no inherent legal protections.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/460/575.html
http://volokh.com/2010/11/04/d-c-s-highest-court-holds-ammunition-ban-violates-second-amendment/
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html
Regardless of the constitutional impediments, such a tax has absolutely no chance of passing either house of Congress. Heck, they cannot even pass a universal background check bill despite purported claims of over 90% support.
Interestingly, it's anticipated that a very small "violence tax" instituted in Seattle, similar in nature but far less onerous than an actual bullet tax, will likely soon fall due to constitutional and state preemption concerns. Prepare for even more pro-gun right legal precedent in the near future.
http://www.examiner.com/article/summary-judgment-hearing-on-seattle-gun-tax-lawsuit-dec-18
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)branford
(4,462 posts)The attempted backdoor ban on the 5.56 "green tip" ammo, just one type of one popular cartridge size, spectacularly failed due to a huge public outcry and legal concerns, and arguably resulted in the resignation of the ATF chief. That's the exact opposite of "it's coming..."
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2015/0321/Gun-control-advocates-lose-another-round-with-departure-of-ATF-chief-video
Similarly, an editorial lamenting the failure of gun control and desiring a greater focus on bullets offers absolutely nothing about the constitutional or electoral problems with such proposals other than insight into the fevered imaginations of firearm prohibitionists.
However, feel free to keep you head in the sand about punitive gun and related tax proposals. Just because you want something or believe it justified, does not make it constitutional or politically palatable to the vast majority of citizens.
While you're anxiously wait for these magic laws and your mythical gun control utopia, the rest of us will continue to watch gun rights expand throughout most of the country both legislatively and through the courts.
Straw Man
(6,771 posts)It will be how we recover damages for all the death and destruction wrought by a "hobby" .....its for public safety.
The death and destruction is not wrought by the hobbyists, of whom there are millions in this country. It is wrought by criminals. Please explain why the hobbyists should pay for the damage caused by criminals.
How would you feel about slapping a $10 per drink tax on alcohol to pay for the damage that it inflicts on this society daily?
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)I do not drink but the roads are dangerous with those that do and they should pay for the death and damage the alcohol does.
Of course we all know the person that drinks is not responsible for their actions, it is the inanimate object, in this case alcohol.
DonP
(6,185 posts)We all noticed you overlooked that part about SCOTUS already determining that ammunition is also covered by the 2nd Amendment.
In fact several appellate courts have also struck down high taxes on guns and ammunition as unconstitutional.
But feel free to get out your checkbook and get a case going with a top rate legal team. Figure about $500 an hour for court time.
Oh, if you lose you will also be contributing in 7 figures to the NRA's legal fees, just like Chicago, San Francisco, DC and a lot of others that thought they were clever too.
Waldorf
(654 posts)is a big push to get that section of the Federal law changed.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)If you banned bullets, the courts would throw that out practucally overnight, and some city would be writing another check for the NRAs legal defense.
Waldorf
(654 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Ammunition is a (consumable) component of a firearm. Already protected under the Second Amendment...
sarisataka
(21,000 posts)Minneapolis Star Tribune Company v. Commissioner, 460 U.S. 575 (1983)
To summarize, a tax on printer's ink was an unconstitutional limit on the First Amendment. I believe you can see the parallel with bullets and the Second.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Americans every year either....
sarisataka
(21,000 posts)Are inert until fired from a gin or used to Write an article persuading the US population that war with Iraq is necessary.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Just in our country....aint no wars here huh?
sarisataka
(21,000 posts)A bullet ban would be successful, and are not just being obtuse, go right ahead.
I'll stick with practical solutions that won't be overturned in less than a tenth the time it took to pass the law.
Response to sarisataka (Reply #19)
VanillaRhapsody This message was self-deleted by its author.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I said a high tax...
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)for those that couldn't afford it, besides, that's already been addressed by the SCOTUS, ammo is part and parcel of the 2A.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)How sad.....
Its coming. Or you all better cone up with something....the rest of us thst dont live in fear....dont are tired of watching innocents get gunned down by a "well regulated militia"
Hmmm that regulated worfld....couldn't taxation be a gorm of regulation?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Thousands upon thousands be killed often before our very eyes because cameras are everywhere now....and not do anything about it????
Its called evolving
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)
If your pipe dream keeps you warm at night, good for you, meanwhile, I'll continue to exercise my 2A right, comfortable in the absolute knowledge that you and your cohorts don't have a snowball's chance in hell of becoming law.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Your little hobby...
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)How original.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Let me ask you this,
Are kids dying by vehicle accidents?
Are kids dying by poisoning?
Are kids dying by drowning?
Are kids dying by abuse?
Are kids dying by disease?
Seems the only kids that are dying that you care about are those the die by firearms.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)do we control chemicals that cause poisoning YES!
Do we hire Life Guards to prevent drownings YES!
Do we arrest those that commit abuse...YES!
Do we do the best we can to control Disease...YES!
Time to control bullets that are killing children EVERY single day!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)YES!
When was the last time you had to have a background check to buy a vehicle?
When was the last time you had to have a background check to swim in a pool?
We arrest those that use firearms in a criminal manner
That bullet control thing you dream about?
Ain't gonna happen, SCOTUS has already spoken to that.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)time to strengthen those regulations!
Regulate BULLETS!!!
Lets make it so we can use biometrics to fire a weapon...and lets make sure all the bullets are registered!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)
10's of 1000's die needlessly of many things, yet you choose to focus on firearms?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Lets register them.....technology is the answer!
If you buy bullets...you buy them with their own serial number. Then whatever happens to those bullets YOU are responsible for. And since that takes time....you will just have to wait...a cooling off period...until your registered bullets arrive.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)my wife is literally LHAO at your posts here, hell, even our cows are rolling their eyes at you.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)NOTHING! NADA! ZIP! Bupkis!
You are still in denial that there IS a problem. Meanwhile children are dying everyday!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Children are dying every day, most by something other than firearms, yet you focus on one method and one method only.
Now our chickens and hogs are laughing.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I've got facts and the law on my side, you have what?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)denial is not a river in Egypt....every goddamnday!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)yet you focus on one method only.
Now who's in denial?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)one doesn't negate the other....we CAN walk and chew gum at the same time!
Yes who IS in denial
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)sarisataka
(21,000 posts)The case I cited.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)And it does say..."well regulated militia"....so we regulate the bulletts
GGJohn
(9,951 posts) TeddyR
(2,493 posts)Would be unconstitutional. And you really ought to read up on the Second Amendment and the meaning of "well regulated." It means in good working condition or well trained as it relates to the "militia," not "subject to extensive regulation" like you think. In fact, your definition doesn't even make sense in the context of the amendment as a whole - "An extensively regulated/controlled militia, being necessary to the security of a free state" is nonsensical, whereas "A well trained and operating militia being necessary to the security of a free state" actually makes sense.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)of American military personnel.
beardown
(363 posts)I already did my post before I read yours so I'm keeping mine too.
Glad you noted the Iraqis. I've found with another rabid anti-gunner that he gives Hillery a pass on supporting the Iraq invasion because it had economic benefit. Grossly simplifying the actual thread flow, but that's the gist of it. Very repub view that only America lives matter.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)People have a constitutional right to free press, and that means you can not put a special tax on ink to put them out of business.
People have a right to bear arms, and you can not tax bullets out of existence.
if you dislike the second amendment, why dont you work on repealing it?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)The law wont pass, so Im done with this thread.
Perhaps a 1st year law student can help you understand it.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Its about damn time..the rest of us have to live in this world. If moving smokers outdoors because forcing thier smoke into my breathing space is against my rights. AyAt some point the,rights to live of the majority non-gungeoneers trumps your rights to mass bullets
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...I suspect you will studiously 'forget' that you ever posted in this thread.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)so it isn't a deflection.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)We need common sense bullet control
After all when the 2nd A was written....muskets only shot one at a time before reloading....that was bullet control.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)that signed the IWR, ergo, the ink is directly responsible for those Iraqi and American deaths.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)ergo, ink was the direct result of those Iraqi and American lives.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts) VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Using your logic, the Feds could shut down DU
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...it was worth it.
It appears you know little about Constitutional law, and even less about practical politics
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)But not for the tens of thousands including way too many children n your towns and home continue to die needlessly every year intil the vast majority are ginally fed up at babies dying for a minorities "hobby"
If golf caused tens of thousands of deaths your damn skippy we would make golf balls outrageously expensive...
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)You mean like alcohol?
You mean like drugs, legal and illegal?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Hahaha ondeed!
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)And how do heroin addicts benefit your cause.....they have a disease.......are you calling gun ownership a sickness?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I hope you didn't pull a muscle with that stretch.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)As is evinced in this thread, the Washington Generals remain...
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)after you remove suicides and self defense. Heroin deaths doubled the past couple decades, passing firearms murders.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)And self defense? Hahahaha....there are SOOOOO many of those right? You thiught I would miss that.huh? What a pathetic joke....
Children are dying and you make pathetic jokes...
melm00se
(5,053 posts)Kill more than all firearms deaths:
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/dea-drug-overdoses-kill-more-americans-car-crashes-or-firearms
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)BTW, those aren't protected rights, like firearm ownership, including ammo, is.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Have you noticed how high the pricecof them have increased in major cities? You think thats not intentional? Not to mention how low teenagw smoking has fallen recently. Dont tell me it wasnt intentionally prohibitive
You know what tells me its a damn good idea? How much of a clamor it caused among you few,guys defending them!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)whereas firearm ownership, including ammunition, is.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)"A well regulated militia"
You all get to be like Barney Fife with one bullet in your shirt pocket.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)maybe you missed the part where I said the SCOTUS has ruled that ammo is part and parcel of the 2A?
This tired old meme has been thoroughly debunked time and time again, but if it makes you feel better, keep repeating that nonsense.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)As a total ban on firearms, which seems to be your ultimate goal. In any event, you may have noticed that firearm laws are becoming LESS restrictive in almost every state in the country, but feel free to keep peddling your losing propositions.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 6, 2015, 08:19 AM - Edit history (1)
Just a limited number of bullets....just like back when your precious 2A was wrtten....keep that musket ball in your pocket Barney Fife!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)as for ammo, I have all I want and need for the moment, and when I run low, I'll either reload my own, or drive into Flagstaff and buy more.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)one thing to own them...like having a car in the garage. But as soon as you hit OUR roads.....regulations!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)This is pure comedy gold.
OUR roads include me, and I do follow all the regulations of AZ.
Good luck on trying to prevent me from exercising my 2A, or anyone else's 2A right for that matter, I suspect, in the end, you'll be pissed off because the American people aren't on your side.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Obviously we are not regulating them enough......Left on your own you gungeoneers have not come up with a single solution to reduce these needless deaths...except MORE guns....so looks like the adults are going to have to step in to fix things as usual.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)only to have them labeled as "NRA talking points".
Adults? That's fucking rich, firearm owners on this board constantly belittled by the "adults".
Nope, you can dream all you want, meanwhile, I live in the real world where I'm free to exercise my 2A right comfortable in the knowledge that my right isn't going away by the likes of you and your ilk.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)bullets registered to your name....making you responsible for their storage....if something happens to them...its on you. Better lock those precious bullets up.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Ain't gonna happen.
BTW, all my firearms and ammo are locked up, in 4 different safes.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)MORE guns!
Why lets just let all kindergartners Open Carry!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Prosecute more vigorously those parents that leave firearms around where children can access them.
Mandatory firearm safety lessons for children, in the form of Eddie Eagle safety course.
Safe storage laws would help reduce negligent firearm deaths and injuries of children.
Mandatory safe storage course for first time firearm owners.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)then yes.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)
ileus
(15,396 posts)beardown
(363 posts)Interesting. Keep them at home okay. Time to order up that 120mm anti-tank gun I've had my eyes on for awhile now. Under the new 'keep them at home okay' rule, I'm good. Too hard to tow the damn thing to the shooting range anyway.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)We seem to have no problem regulating those in the world...
ileus
(15,396 posts)It would be tough, a M&P Shield would fit the bill though. Personal safety devices should never be denied....right to life should always guarantee individual ownership of small arms like pistols and rifles.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Arms are arms....we used to only have muskets....
ileus
(15,396 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)they would be regulated too...
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)sarisataka
(21,000 posts)until we can get Democrats out and voting. We will all be extinct if we wait for Republicans to die of old age before reversing our losing streak.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)
Worry sbout going extinct....doesn't care about children getting gunned down...
Check!
sarisataka
(21,000 posts)but if we keep on as is, we are on the same path as the dinosaurs. The difference is we could do something about our fate.
*And don't put bullshit words in my mouth*
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 5, 2015, 11:52 PM - Edit history (1)
No one will ever finally get tired of that....
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Cheap appeals to emotion and moralizing are nothing new...
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Its getting pretty damn old....
If you are not going to be part of he solution....then you must b be part of the problem...
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)That does....
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)kelly1mm
(5,206 posts)over the last 25 years and gun laws (especially in regards to concealed carry/open carry) have gotten remarkably more liberal over that same period . If support as concentrated in older voters one would expect to see the opposite.
Waldorf
(654 posts)Stopping the ink to the ink presses was stopping people from exercising their 1st Amendment right.
Stopping the sale of bullets will stop people from exercising their 2nd Amendment right.
Your only real option is somehow getting enough voters and politicians to start the process to amend the 2nd Amendment, which in todays age will not happen. Maybe 50 yrs. in the future, maybe 100, maybe never.
beardown
(363 posts)which has led to thousands of US deaths, many occurring years after the fact due to the stress endured by troops there, and tens of thousands of permanent body and mind injuries. It's also led to hundreds of thousands of deaths in the nations we invaded and millions of refugees, but your concern explicitly stated Americans so we won't count those types.
Other articles and media have led to Rush Limburger and a roaring hate festering environment that has led to cutbacks in social and economic support networks which have caused tens of thousands of deaths due to poor medical access and tens of thousands of more deaths in middle class men in their late 40-50's per recent articles stating the US is alone in developed nations where death rates are increasing for that demographic.
Unconstitutional confiscatory tax on bullets. No harm from articles. Arguing from ignorance should be done at republican underground and not here.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)That way when it's brought up our loss' won't be so bad. We have 18 governorships left. I'd like to keep them. We have 12 state houses left. I'd like to keep them. All I ask is you wait until we gain some seats.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Equals more dead kids.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 6, 2015, 04:31 PM - Edit history (1)
Please check your dictionary/thesaurus.
The terms "since" and "because" are not synonymous. 
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)...the first amendment doesn't protect paper.
beevul
(12,194 posts)It is that full of fail.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)there would be pages of them, lol
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)
ileus
(15,396 posts)And folks wonder why their "common sense" control ideas are rejected.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)I actually have mixed emotions about this proposal. Allow me to explain what I mean.
This is nothing more than a gun control publicity stunt, meant solely to establish gun control bona fides for its sponsor. That’s it. This bill, like all other gun control bills will never see a committee vote. It will never leave committee and will rest peacefully in a desk drawer somewhere on the Hill. No one will formally discuss or debate the merits of this proposal in any congressional committee. That’s the reality of it. I realize this fact; most of you folks understand how this works.
But a lot of folks don’t realize this. The GOA & NRA will trumpet bills like this using social media and direct mailers. State based 2A organizations well talk about the bills during their chapter meetings. Money will flow into the NRA/Pro-2A coffers. When nothing materializes the national 2A orgs will celebrate this as another victory…all thanks to the support of ordinary folks like you. With each of these bills, we are able to bring in more and more money. With more money we can get more done; while making it all the more likely we will be able to defeat any potential legitimate gun control proposal in the future. Today’s “$100 gun tax” bill is funding for tomorrow’s constitutional carry state. It provides resources for more sophisticated marketing efforts that allow us to grow the base. We’ve been able to do a lot over the last few years and have made significant progress in expanding our reach thanks to monetary inflows. Bills like this indirectly provide funding for groups like SAF to file and support lawsuits against gun control. We were able to get suppressors in Minnesota, spent shell casing laws repealed in Maryland, constitutional carry in Maine and Kansas, some campus carry in Texas, simplified permitting in Michigan, reduced permit costs in Mississippi, repeal of the 48 hour waiting period in Wisconsin, and expansion of carry rights in states across the country. For that, I have to thank the gun controllers because without their absolutism, a lot of what we do just would not be possible due to lack of funding.
Any gun control proposal, regardless of its merits is a good thing for national 2A. So, in that regard I love bills like this. They amount to a huge fundraising effort for 2A. What’s not to love? Well, there is a major downside…
The message that many folks around the country hear when bills like this are proposed, is “the only thing standing between you and a $100 firearms tax is the Republican Party.” They remember that and they will be at the polls 100% of the time. As a lifelong Democrat, I think its seriously time we push gun control support as far away from the party as possible.
KC