Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumIf guns were as regulated as cars
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http://aattp.org/proof-new-study-shows-gun-deaths-outnumber-car-deaths-in-14-states/
safeinOhio
(34,075 posts)driving a car is not a God given right as stated in the Bible.
JonathanRackham
(1,604 posts)My owners manual is as thick as the Old Testament.
safeinOhio
(34,075 posts)JonathanRackham
(1,604 posts)Beware the dipsticks.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)Guns allowed in all public areas. Removal of the classification "assault weapon", as there are no "assault cars", are there? Removal of arbitrary magazine limits, as there are no arbitrary fuel-tank limits on cars, either. And no limits or special permits to purchase ammunition.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)once the gun registration, licensing, and insurance requirements have been established in all 50 states.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)Your interest in an incredible numbers of requirements and qualifications for a protected right and your again bringing nothing to the table is noted and speaks to your disdain for nearly 40% of the people of voting age. Get a clue about why your simple laws about UBCs that are supported by "90%" of the country, fail once the culture warrior congress critters add all that kind of useless crap to the bills.
IMO the more often your side pushes for those types of counter-freedom laws, the more people will stop listening to you and just mechanically decide to oppose ANY pro-control measures and ALL pro-control candidates.
Please continue working to ensure your own irrelevance.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)The Courts opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Neither is the authority to regulate and the right trumps the authority. If regulations impose too great a burden or pointless obstructions the right prevails.
ileus
(15,396 posts)we have remaining...
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)What about them? Do you have suggestions for changes?
And regarding the private sale of arms??? Any thoughts???
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)or insured to OWN, only to use on the public roads. I have never had to have a medical check to drive a car. I was able to renew my drivers license over the internet for a few bucks, look forward to doing that also with my CCL to save a few hundred bucks and also do away with the fingerprint requirement.
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)I'd give you an exemption.
hack89
(39,179 posts)I thought we are going to regulate guns like cars.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)safeinOhio
(34,075 posts)that ban cars. "Race" car like fuel dragsters are banned from public roads. A friend of mine got a ticket for a leaking fuel tank.
just saying
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Cars are not allowed in all public areas. No assault cars? Check with the military or drag strip where some cars even need special licenses to be driven, maybe even the off road motorcycle or truck club. No fuel tank limits? It's not the size of the tank but what you are allowed to put in it, weren't buying gas during WWII or even as late as 1773 were you.
Want to talk about what kind of tires you can use, or bullet velocities, etc.?
Try again.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Nearly all vehicular deaths are from accidents: human error or mechanical failure, often complicated by weather. A guy runs a red light and plows into a minivan. Texting while driving. Driving too fast for conditions. Badly-time medical issue (saw that one personally and helped the couple until firefighters could down down into the streambed). Blown tire. Engine fire. Suspension failure. Driving the wrong way down the highway. Rockslide. Bad lane change. Blinded by the sun.
Very few gun-related deaths are accidents. Most are suicides or homicides; a very small fraction are justifiable homicide (police or citizen) or accidents. And the accidents are, again, mostly due to human error, typically a handling issue. There are a very few cases per year where a gun spontaneously discharges without the operator directly or indirectly moving the trigger. They can happen, of course; older guns may lack modern hammer-blocking mechanisms to prevent discharge from a sharp impact. And all guns are mechanical devices, so the innards are subject to wear and the occasional failure. Taurus Manufacturing, a Brazilian gun maker, recently settled a class-action suit that claimed the safety mechanism of several lines of handguns were flawed and would allow discharges even with the safety on.
Because liability insurance doesn't protect the policyholder when the holder commits a crime, buying a policy for a gun is pretty useless. If I kill myself with my own gun, how and who can I sue? I'm dead and I only shot myself! If I murder somebody with my gun, my insurance company won't protect me because I committed a crime. If I am defending myself and accidentally shoot somebody... well, either I'm guilty of negligence, or my attacker is responsible. In either case, I don't think my insurance would cover me. Maybe an insurance expert knows more about that scenario, though.
So comparing guns to cars is a bad analogy in general. We register and tax cars because cars emit, as a routine and normal part of everyday use, pollutants that require mitigation and regulation. Cars, also as a normal part of everyday use, cause wear and tear on the public roads that were built for them. Cars are dozens of times more expensive than guns, and as such personal property are subject to taxes. My car costs me about $90 a year in property taxes. In addition, registration also provides a clear path of ownership of this expensive property for transfers. Unlike guns, it is difficult to operate an unregistered vehicle in public, and storing one on private land requires considerable square footage.
But let's get back to your post. Cars are allowed on all public streets. I do not see any laws barring cars within 500 feet of a school, for example. Or from houses of worship, governmental buildings, malls, cinemas, etc.
My comment about "assault cars" was a criticism of the definition of "assault weapon" commonly used in past, present, and proposed gun legislation. An analogy between "assault car" and "assault weapon" would go something like this:
* Ground clearance of less than 3 inches
* A protruding aerodynamic device
* Tinted windows
* Rims more than 17" in diameter.
All owners of assault cars will have to register their assault cars by a certain date, at which point the registry will be permanently closed. After that date, owners of unregistered assault cars will have to either sell their assault car to people in other states that do not ban assault cars, or remove the banned features to make the car compliant. Assault cars that are registered cannot be sold or given to other owners in the state, even if that owner already owns other assault cars, nor can they be inherited by any state resident.
And yeah, it is the size of the tank. On a gun it's called a magazine, and there are several states that limit magazine capacity to an arbitrary number, usually ten rounds. Only one state, New Jersey, has its own ban on what goes in the magazine (they ban hollowpoint bullets). Yeah, there is a federal law that bans armor-piercing pistol ammunition based on the composition of the bullet, but outside of that it's a wide-open field.
I will also point out that nearly all states issue concealed-carry permits which require a background check, and often includes multi-hour training course (often by an NRA-certified instructor) followed by a written and/or practical handing test. Several states do not require a permit to carry concealed.
So... cars versus guns... bad analogy, yes?
beevul
(12,194 posts)Which of those have special requirements to simply own, or use on private property?
Which of those have a special requirement to simply own, or use on private property?
Another in a long series of posts which can not seem to understand the difference between usage in public and simple ownership.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)...no tags are required for vehicles that don't travel public highways.
No training or license is required to drive vehicles that don't travel public highways.
No written test is required to drive vehicles that don't travel public highways.
No driving test is required to drive vehicles that don't travel public highways.
No physical or license is required to drive vehicles that don't travel public highways.
No insurance is required for vehicles that don't travel public highways.
No registration or inspection is required to drive vehicles that don't travel public highways.
>> (There are states that do not require vehicle inspections.)
There are no limits on the number of vehicles one can own.
There is no waiting period for a vehicle purchase.
Violent felons, druggies, domestic abusers and the mentally ill can all buy a car without a background check.
Now here is a question: Someone who isn't legally allowed to buy, own, carry or use a gun can break the law and have one. He can steal a car and drive it to where ever he wants to commit a crime. Tell me why the word control belongs in the term "gun-control"?
Is the state or society really in control? Or was this terminology invented just to make people feel good?
secondwind
(16,903 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)..."Gun-control, it's not about guns it's about control."
Do you have any suggestions?
I leave you with a quote from Daniel Webster (2 terms as US Senator and twice appointed Secretary of State:
And a warning from Patrick Henry:
gregcrawford
(2,382 posts)... and your "logic" is so full of holes it's only just barely worthy of a response. By your reasoning there shouldn't even be laws against murder, because someone will do it anyway.
Have you ever noticed how Wayne LaPierre's malignant minions always gloss over the "well-regulated militia" part of the 2nd Amendment?
And it should have read, "the right to bear single-shot, smooth-bore, flintlock muskets shall not be abridged." The concept of interchangeable parts for the British Army's "Brown Bess" was quite new at the time of the Constitution's writing, and the metallic cartridge hadn't even been thought of, let alone automatic weapons.
Laws must be updated and revised as technology advances the mechanisms they regulate. If we don't blow ourselves up, or poison the planet first, the 2nd Amendment might someday read, "The right to bear incinerating death rays in our eyeballs shall not be abridged."
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)What were the regulations imposed at the time?
Then freedom of the press only refers to an actual printing press?
Why do Controllers always ignore "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" and they ignore the fact the 2A says "a free state" instead of "the state" meaning they were looking for a quality for the citizenry, not a particular government.
What are the technological updates for self-defense?
"You can defend yourself against robbers, rapists, home invaders, stalkers, killers and any other person intent on inflicting bodily harm -- just not with a semi-automatic gun because then we'll take you away from your family, put you in jail for 10 years and destroy you life."
That makes perfect sense -- to Controllers.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)And by that reasoning I infer that you believe the only for not murdering another is because there's a law against it. Really??? Is that how you see everyone?
By quoting this brain-fart of a soundbite, you really limit who will even take you seriously.
My learned pro-RKBA associate, Nuclear Unicorn, has addressed this in greater detail.
Have a nice day.
gregcrawford
(2,382 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 1, 2015, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)
And even sorrier for the irony impaired.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...on being part of a militia, well-regulated or otherwise. The right is quite clearly ascribed to "the People." That is, it's ascribed to the larger set, not the militia subset. It's an individual right. Not because of any SCOTUS ruling. Because linguistics...
It could also have read "the right to bear state-of-the-art personal weapons as carried by soldiers," which would probably be much more in line with the Framers' intent. Neither interpretation would be, obviously, really right for how things stand here and now.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)From any private individual.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)...Do you have cash?
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)To bad guns are not regulated like cars. The pro control side has some idiotic arguments, lol
Turbineguy
(38,376 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 1, 2015, 08:11 AM - Edit history (1)
driver training requirement applies in Florida. But then again, auto insurance is 2.5 times higher.
I don't think that a true comparison between guns and cars can be made. Several problems exist. True gun fetishists don't give a shit about lives lost (as long as it does not happen to them). Market saturation is not a problem for gun manufacturers in the same way it is for car makers. Gun manufacturers are no where near that crossover point (dead people don't buy guns) where the number of deaths impact sales. People have limited space to park and store cars, whereas you can leave a gun laying around the house just about anywhere. Car makers are held to safety standards and indeed, people buy cars that are deemed to be safer than those that are not. On the other hand, guns that blow up in your face or shoot backwards might not sell too well either.
There are also statistical problems. Accidental auto deaths far outnumber accidental gun deaths. Please, please, please, don't compare the two for murder or suicide. BTW suicide by firearm is also non-violent (I never knew that) and of course, it's a choice made under the most rational of circumstances.
And speaking of rationality, remember guns are not dangerous, deaths related to firearms are mere coincidences. If you didn't get shot, you would have been struck by a meteor. It's God will. After all, he was democratically elected, not like that dictator in the White House.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)In a well regulated militia there would be tons of restrictions on a killing tool......what is the real "tool", the gun or the intellectually dishonest gun lover?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And they old all be geared towards making the tool as efficient and practical as technologically possible.
virginia mountainman
(5,046 posts)How much does about 20,000 gun laws weigh???
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)Stop with the NRA lies and bullshit.
beevul
(12,194 posts)Ahh yes. Innefectual and inaccurate barbs, from a poster on the side that can't or wont differentiate between public use and ownership.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)personal arms as the Military would use. That was the original constitutional intent, quite evident in the related documents and Militia Acts of the time. The Militias were the 1st line of defense for our liberties: "...Militia to to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasion". The Militias HAD to be most effective, to better limit the need for a large standing army.
M4s, M16s, M1As, M9s, hi-cap mags, bayonets, etc. would all be mandatory, no city control ordinances or local laws against possession, etc. etc.
Restrictions would deal with caliber and support-related accoutrements - to try to keep a commonality - again for effectiveness.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)What "times" were those, gun lover? The NRA memes are truly pathetic, why carry that kind of water? Twisted logic is more twisted than logic.
I swear, it has to be the effects of all that brain-rotting lead, nothing else explains it.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Those were the times where the Militias served vital roles in protecting our liberties. And it was NECESSARY that they be most effective - so had to be well trained and armed accordingly.
The times in which the 2nd was written, and the intents clearly shown via the Militia Acts and debates in congress..
Definitely NOT the time where "In a well regulated militia there would be tons of restrictions on a killing tool!", and not likely how it would be seen today IF things hadn't changed with the recreation of the Militias into the NG and acceptance of our HUGE military.
Confused with your references to the NRA, gun lovers, and brain rotting, as I mentioned nothing about any of that goofy bullshit. Since YOU quoted part of the 2nd, and used past tense "there would be", I figured those were the times you referring to, and how they might be interpreted today (BASED ON ORIGINAL INTENT).
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)jmg257
(11,996 posts)notions behind what and why they did stuff way back when!
(and how things have changed)
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)You know, its resources provided so that the people who find all that to be too expensive or impractical can still enjoy the benefits whenever they need them.
JonathanRackham
(1,604 posts)One year waiting period for your license and an FBI background check, fingerprints........
On a daily basis I see texters, eaters, readers, people eating breakfast, makeup being put on. And daily I see 2 to 4 accidents. What about people who leave their kids and pets in 100 degree cars. Can't remember the last time I've seen a gun in public. Take cars and licenses away from morons.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)Seems awful arbitrary (not to mention unconstitutional). A background check is already performed. Why do you need to be fingerprinted in order to exercise the constitutional right to keep and bear arms?
ileus
(15,396 posts)Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)are suicides.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)That graphic is utterly derpworthy...
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,577 posts)Just the word 'derpzy' that changes colors ranging from vomit green to turd brown.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)guns would not be on the graph with that scale. How would this prevent suicides? How about gang violence and murder in places like Chicago? The woman killed four and injured 30 with her car in Oklahoma, will the insurance be paying out since she is charged with murder? Will the families of the murder victims collect? It wasn't an accident, it was a criminal act. Be worth looking up.
BTW, to actually do this you would have to repeal all seven federal gun control laws and replace them with nothing. That means,
sixteen year olds carrying to high school
no regulation on ownership, only carrying open or concealed. Taking to the range doesn't count.
any age can buy
no background checks
dealers not regulated by the feds
Since self defense insurance is about ten bucks a month, and if you apply the same rule as cars, would only apply to those carrying for self defense, not hunting or target since they will be on the public road unloaded.
This sounds nice to the culture warrior who doesn't give a shit about saving lives and not very bright twenty somethings being snarky, but not serious public policy.
Silicosys4
(26 posts)If guns were like cars,
I'd be able to order a fully automatic weapon off of the internet, have it shipped right to my private property without any kind of background check, and shoot it to my hearts content on my own property.
I would be able to put that fully automatic weapon on a trailer, drive it to my friends private property, and shoot it on his private range. I would be able to trailer my fully automatic weapon wherever I want to go, and shoot it on whatever private property allows me to shoot it.
There would be no background checks in place, and even if I have had multiple DUI's and no drivers license due to my criminal past, had literally proven I was a danger to society when I drive on public roads,
I would still be legal to own all the cars I want, and drive them on any private track or property I have permission, on my own property as much as my heart desires.
Controllers just do not get the rights of the individual, do they?
Human101948
(3,457 posts)The same people who protest so loudly about their 2nd Amendment rights are virtually silent about today's loss of 4th Amendment rights. Which will lend eventually to your loss of 2nd Amendment rights.
Silicosys4
(26 posts)I do, and they take ALL of their rights seriously, not just the 2nd...unlike many anti 2a activists, who would gladly give one or two away based on theories that it will do...something.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)1st, 2nd and 4th are just a few.
liberal N proud
(60,945 posts)And still the death numbers are merging.