I informed Skinner of my support for darkangel's proposal for a SD Group in DU.

[Eleanors38]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by krispos42 (a host of the Gun Control & RKBA group).

I believe that darkangel wants the group to be a safe haven to cut back on the extremely vitriolic expressions in opposition to self-defense discussions. This does not look like another gun group.

[Lurks Often]

1. I support the idea of a Self Defense group as well

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

2. Link to a thread or was it via PM? n/t

[Eleanors38]

59. I saw this in ADA. I have communicated with darkangel218, but don't want

To discuss the contents as some of them were personal. I don't know if she wants to join the discussion.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

64. Thanks I read the thread and...

...Skinner's reply. I wasn't sure if there was further discussion or activity anywhere on the site.

[SecularMotion]

3. If it's not "another gun group", why are you posting about it in GC&RKBA?

[beevul]

5. Sounds like its intended to be a safe haven.

I assume you know what that means, but we can discuss it if you'd like.

[Ed Suspicious]

28. Self defense needs a safehaven? What caliber will protect the

safehaven?

[beevul]

30. Just like 'gun control' did, apparently. N/T

[Decoy of Fenris]

47. Just want to thank you for the publicity in GD, Secmo. :)

Had a surprisingly high amount of good feedback. Just gotta get the TOS up and running and we should be golden.

[beevul]

48. The OP in GD was deleted by its author.

I suspect, because it was not going as the deleter hoped it would.

So lets see:

First, it was posted in GD to try and derail the discussion, then after the discussion wasn't going as planned, deleted the thread to bring it to a halt.

Can anyone make the case that the anti-gun folks don't want to control the discussion where guns are concerned, now?

[Eleanors38]

60. I would have, but wasn't sure if it would be canned as a SOP violation...

For a while, anything about guns was allowed. Now, GD appears to be in its rare no-guns mode. And SD may include firearms.

You posted about it.

Why did you self-cancel?

[SecularMotion]

61. I deleted after gun nuts swarmed the thread whining about not getting respect for their RW views

on Democratic Underground.

I probably shouldn't have cross-posted it at all since it wasn't a formal request to form the group.

[hack89]

67. You post flame bait and then whine when you got the intended result?

Ok

[DonP]

69. If only you employed that same "logic" here in the Gungeon.

[friendly_iconoclast]

70. Failure to understand the Streisand Effect is your problem, not ours n/t

Last edited Tue Oct 27, 2015, 08:42 PM - Edit history (1)

[beevul]

4. Count me as a supporter. N/T

[Fred Sanders]

6. Is it getting too hot in the Gungeon or too cold?

New "self-defence" group? Meaning self defence with guns? Or just general self defence as in Karate and Judo?

[Decoy of Fenris]

7. Probably all of the above. Self Defense goes much further than just guns. n/t

[SecularMotion]

8. Like a can of beans or maybe knitting needles?

[Decoy of Fenris]

9. Anything at hand, really. Everything's an option; some options are more viable than others. n/t

[SecularMotion]

12. Would you rather fight 1 horse-sized duck or 100 duck-sized horses?

[Decoy of Fenris]

13. 1 horse sized duck. n/t

[sarisataka]

16. Don't forget

Bike wheels. Very effective, I've heard.

[Decoy of Fenris]

10. Hey Eleanors, is this the "Official" thread for interest? If so, count me in. n/t

[Eleanors38]

55. I don't know anymore what is "official" in DU. But there has to be...

some kind of measure of interest, once the controller panic is stripped away. I like the idea, and it can be useful for all, although I don't know how much hosting I can do. I can help with a SOP, and anyone who wishes to host should raise their hand!

[sarisataka]

11. Self defense should be allowed here

Even non-gun forms could fall under the definition of "arms" in many cases.

I think the issue is more those who ridicule the idea of self-defense and believe you should give the criminal anything(including your body and life) to protect the criminal's well being.

[beevul]

14. This has been cross posted in GD.

Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027285855


I suspect some folks are not happy with this proposal, and would prefer only one safe haven related in any way to guns.

[Decoy of Fenris]

15. Well, all gun control self-fappery aside, a Self Defense group should be something we embrace.

Guns be damned; Everyone in the world should have a basic right of self-determination, and that includes self-defense. I can think of very few progressives who would oppose that.

[beevul]

17. I completely agree. N/T

[Eleanors38]

49. This is how I see it. Some folks have no guns, yet are situationally aware...

We can all learn from different experiences, guns or no.

[beardown]

58. Sun Tsu "The Art of War"

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

[pablo_marmol]

18. I support this. NT

[hlthe2b]

19. I hope the intent is to discuss practical & non-lethal measures as well in terms of self-defense

Otherwise, this may well devolve into the celebratory blog equivalent of a "snuff film" by a handful of extremists or trolls-- something I feel certain Skinner would want to avoid.

I am sorry if that offends some proposing this group, but it is the reality elsewhere on the internet. Not all strong gun proponents are equally rational.

[gejohnston]

20. I agree,

however, as the military will tell you, there is no such thing as non-lethal there is only lethal and less than lethal. Pepper spray can be lethal, it can also be ineffective. There are also things like what is best when firearms are not appropriate, like living in NYC if you are not rich. I know a guy that even though he has guns for hunting and target shooting, and he doesn't need a permit, being a Wyoming resident, he doesn't carry one. In town, he carries a tactical pen.

While a celebratory blog would be bad, a "monday morning quarterback" would be good. I think analyzing why a shoot, or stab or whatever, was good or bad and what could have been done better.

I think also, self defense group should also discuss improvised weapons. If you are close enough, a couple of class room chairs across, say, Mercer's face while others secure the pistol would have naturalized the threat every bit as much as a student with a pistol.
Of course, there is always the fire extinguisher.
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/video/using-a-fire-extinguisher-as-a-defensive-tool-004392/

I would also like to see honest discussions about what is and what is not legitimate self defense and self defense of others, along with the laws of SYG vs DTR. Or is the defense of others a "reasonable person" or "alter ego" state. One thing I emphasis to anyone I teach how to shoot is that Wyoming is a duty to retreat state, not SYG outside of the home.

[gejohnston]

21. I like the idea,

for more details, see post 20.

[Decoy of Fenris]

22. Hey guys. I know I'm (relatively) new, but if you guys need help, let me know!

I'd be glad to help writing up anything you need, ironing out the process the best we can. We're gonna catch hell (as evidenced by the GD post), but I know we can make something good of it.

[Logical]

23. Why does the fucking DU need a self defense forum? There are 100s if not 1000s of gun forums....

where you people can analyze guns all fucking day long.

I own guns and have CC license but I don't come to DU to discuss gun self defense.

There are other forums for this.

[Decoy of Fenris]

24. Why not? n/t

[hack89]

25. Why do you care?

can't stay out of a forum that has no interest to you? Why not develop some self discipline and learn to ignore points of view that you disagree with?

[Logical]

27. LOL, because it is silly and unneeded. nt

[hack89]

31. We can use Banasalot as the standard as to whether it is needed or not.

If it is unneeded than it will be very obvious - if it gets as many regular posters as Bansalot than it is obviously not silly or unneeded.

If there is no harm (besides offending certain sensitive souls) and you don't really care, why not have a SD group?

[beardown]

57. Yeah, it might distract folks from the tap dancing kitten forum.

I consider about 90 percent of internet forums silly and unneeded. So I don't read them.

DU would be a place to host one outside of sites where repubs participate as their self defense discussions only seem to be about how to defend yourself from non-white, non-rich people and of course, taxes.

I'm not longing for a SD group here, but I could care less if it's added and I can choose to read or not read it.

[sarisataka]

29. Why does Du need

a "EBay, Collectors, Flea Market & Antiques" group? Because there is interest.

Why do so many think self defense=guns?

[hack89]

26. I would support a SD group. nt

[ileus]

32. Sounds like a great idea....SD posts normally end up getting spammed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

33. I remember DU not that long ago when a men's group was "too controversial"

I find a DU with four gun groups to be an interesting transformation.

I'm indifferent to the value of the group - I tend to avoid gun conversations - but I find this an interesting contradiction.

[Eleanors38]

52. What is the best SD advice for folks ear-plugged into music all day?

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. Stick to the sidewalk? Look both ways before crossing the street? n/t

[Eleanors38]

68. I don't know, either. That's the point.

[Eleanors38]

53. Four groups? There are 2 groups and 1 forum (Guns Discussion, usually). There are some

major changes regarding self-defense. What are the roles of pepper spray? Is it legal where you are? If one has a knife, how is it legally carried? Is it an automatic (switch), does it have two edges? Is there a better way to be self-aware when walking the streets plugged into an on-line music subscription? How can people in wheel chairs better defend themselves? Are the number of robbery attacks increasing or not? Related to this is how the cashless economy may be causing violent crims to reconsider their target opportunities? Do thugs "case" in-store ATMs and mark users for off-premises attacks? Then there is the whole sphere of SD in your home, esp. if one has no gun. Superior doors and windows, home modifications, safe rooms, remote cameras which "talk to you" when someone is spotted on your lawn, how to read your pet's behavior?
In cars with auto-locks, when is the best time to use the remote? Can one temporarily disable a remote or even the ignition once the car is jacked? What are the best procedures (if any) for picking up hitch-hikers? What are the dangers of giving one a lift, but asks for you to stop off at a convenience store (can we say "sucker getaway driver?&quot .

There's a lot more before anyone even gets around to arguments over holsters.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. I include outdoor life which is mostly (albeit tangentially) about guns.

The rest? I dunno.

Which is why I stay out of both gun and knitting discussions. I get that there are people who have a fascination about all things knitting, and might get upset when someone suggests that their favorite kinds of yarn are not safe/culturally or environmentally sensitive/sending inappropriate messages...

but my reaction to those conversations is generally bemusement.

[Brickbat]

34. I have to admit the thread underway in GD is surprising and a little horrifying to me.

[Decoy of Fenris]

35. In what way, if you don't mind my asking? n/t

[Brickbat]

36. The speed with which the conversation went from

"How about we talk about self defense?" to "OMG NO GUNNNNNNNZZZZZZ OMG."

[Decoy of Fenris]

38. Yeah... Yeah. That happens a lot. n/t

[Brickbat]

45. I've seen it happen; it was just the zero-to-sixty speed with which the conversation fell apart

that I found unusual. But this is DU, after all, and some have found a hobbyhorse.

[GGJohn]

43. And it wasn't even the pro 2A folks here who derailed the thread.

And we're the ones that are obsessed?

[Brickbat]

46. Exactly.

[madinmaryland]

37. Huh? There is a very good web site you could visit for that type of discussion...

Go over to www.freerepublic.com for that kind of discussion.

[beevul]

39. "Go over to www.freerepublic.com for that kind of discussion."

Go over to www.freerepublic.com for that kind of discussion.

Discussing self defense is only for those on the right?

Fuck.That.

Incidentally, the originator of the idea of a safe haven to discuss self defense, said this:

A group where we can talk about and exchange ideas about best ways to protect ourselves ( methods , technics, weapons, resources), without being called names?

Thank you for providing an example of what would and should be blocked from such a potential safe haven group.

[Decoy of Fenris]

40. Unrelated; Grats on 10K posts, mate. o7 Nice milestone. n/t

[beevul]

41. Oh wow.

I generally don't pay a lot of attention to that so I hadn't even noticed lol.


Thank you.

[Decoy of Fenris]

42. Neither do I, but it was so close to 10K that it drew my attention. No prob. n/t

[GGJohn]

44. Hmmmm,

you seem well versed on what goes on over in that cesspool.
Something to ponder......................

[ileus]

50. Why would you guide progressive democrats to free republic? Do you really like that site?

[Eleanors38]

51. Would you propose that liberal women seek advice from the Far Right re: self defense?

[gejohnston]

54. or any intelligent

discussion on a site ran by a guy that calls himself "rimjob".
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rimjob
As the Meat Loaf song goes, "I won't do that".
That's like expecting Wayne's World explaining the politics of FGFC820's lyrics or finding Masterpiece Theater on MTV.

[gejohnston]

56. do you really expect serious discussions

about anything on a poorly designed web site ran by a guy who calls himself rimjob?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rimjob

Isn't that like expecting to find Masterpiece Theater on MTV?

[Eleanors38]

62. To help matters along, I suggest a SOP should concentrate on...

1). The inevitable objection to and censorship of pictures of guns, called "gun porno" by some.

2). A welcoming atmosphere for ALL DUers who are interested in self-defense, whether or not they have guns or ANY weapon.

3) Discussions of philosophical differences between pacifism and non-violence, including reconciling Gandhi's notion of Not harming others, but nevertheless reacting to attacks as a Duty.

4). Making clear what kind of personal attacks and disruptions are objectionable.

5). Sharing resources which aid in a victim's recovery.

If anyone has a better approach to this, please weigh in.

[beevul]

63. I'd like to submit a clause for consideration.

While there is no single means of self defense, posters in this group are expected to be supportive of self defense regardless of the means.

[krispos42]

71. Locking

This doesn't really fit the SoP of the Group, but I let it bounce around a while because a Self-Defense Group would have some overlap with this one.

There is enough info here and in SecMo's self-deleted thread for the Admins to get a feel for things.

Regards,
Krispos42, Group Host