Attempts at shaming only work when you have credibility with those being shamed

[friendly_iconoclast]

So why are gun control advocates going this route? Gun owners already see them as
somewhere between used car dealers and the more mendacious sorts of TV preachers.

There's no doubt that some of them really think that they can
get gun owners to 'see the light and hear the call' , but to be honest- most of it
seems like a pro forma desperation move, or an attempt to establish
a rep with the like-minded.

[msongs]

1. at least the alleged shamers are not piling up corpses by the tens of thousands nt

[pablo_marmol]

2. I think you've set the record

for proving the OP's point with your first post more frequently by far than any other DU member. Congratulations.......I guess.

[virginia mountainman]

3. Now this is a new one! ROFLMAO..

Makes me fully understand this famous segment from the "Billy Madison" movie...

[Eleanors38]

10. Well, people are killed, but we get to hear talk about Penis...

I guess compassion must be still until more important emotions are vented.

[beevul]

13. Your post really shows the big picture.

at least the alleged shamers are not piling up corpses by the tens of thousands

Nor are 99.9 percent of gun owners.

On any other topic reasonable people, gun owners and anti-gun-violence folks, would come together and say:

"Look, we have a common enemy, those who misuse firearms resulting in gun violence. Lets focus on them."

But no, you guys have to make the 99.9 percent the enemy, because it isn't the 'misusers' you have an issue with.

Its guns you guys have the issue with. Period.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. How many gun owners have *you* gotten to "see the light" with that approach?

I suspect the answer lies somehwhere between 'few' and 'none'...

[pablo_marmol]

4. Yup.......you've hit the nail on the head.

.....but to be honest- most of it seems like a pro forma desperation move, or an attempt to establish a rep with the like-minded.

They know their "cause" is lost.......all that is left are hapless attempts to shame and insult the victors.

[upaloopa]

5. It is going to go beyond talking to gun owners. All gun owners at least on this board are interested

Last edited Sat Oct 24, 2015, 07:49 AM - Edit history (1)

in is guns, gun rights and obfuscation.

My guess is the masses have turned a corner and gun restrictions will become law in the future. It won't take the acquiescence of gun owners. Rather it will be in spite of gun owners.

When the Oregon school shooting was being mourned on this board, a gun owner mocked the mourners. It is gun owners self preservation instincts, their self centered attitude and intransigence that makes them their own worst enemies

I even think this OP is a sign that the worm has turned. I thought that a year ago when gungeon turned to belittling gun control advocates. It is a sign of the pending desperation.

See it is either we accept mass shootings as the norm or we try to do something about them. Society will never accept them as the norm. In every one of these types of situations society begins to weight the pros and cons of a remedy. Right now one of the cons is restricting gun rights. But over time (as more mass shootings happen) the pros begin to out weigh the cons. At that point the cons are less important and become sacrificial.

Another thing in favor of the remedy is that gun owners are on the decline. They are mostly older white men who will eventually pass on. The gun rights advocates get the majority of their strength from right wing politics. There too the majority are older white men. Just the attrition alone of gun owners leading to their lowering numbers will make them becoming the sacrificial lamb more acceptable.

It is inevitable that in the future gun owners will be more and more operating from a point of weakness. Mark it!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. What I'm hearing is --

"You're so preoccupied with not sacrificing rights that nothing is getting done; but if don't do something you'll only end up sacrificing rights."

"Okay. So what do you want?"

"We need you to sacrifice your rights."

"Wait. What?"

"Ugh! SEE THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T TALK TO YOU PEOPLE!"

[upaloopa]

19. I don't care if you talk to us people. It has gone beyond talking as I have said.

Society can act without talking to you. Talking to you helps your obfuscation. Talk talk talk delay delay delay

[GGJohn]

20. You really believe you can get something done without the input/help of firearms owners?

In what world are you living in?
Fantasy World?
You seem to forget that firearms owners are part of society, without us, your chances of passing any meaningful gun control are slim to none and slim has just left the station.

[DonP]

22. Meh? They are locked into a state of "faith" and denial now

I think the control side realizes that in the real world, in spite of campaign promises and Bloomberg's multi million $ spending on their behalf, they are still not going to get any of the things they want in terms of the draconian control or outright confiscation. And even a new SCOTUS is no more likely to overturn Heller and McDonald than they have Roe v. Wade.

But they can't accept that, so they have now locked themselves into a set of religious like, faith based beliefs to give them hope for the "next world" or Australian/UK style gun control sometime probably long after they are gone.

1. "The tide has turned" belief. Somehow, everyone really believes what we do and guns will be confiscated/tightly controlled at some point in the not that distant future. All the current laws on CCW and ownership will be magically overturned by a tidal wave of pubic demand and the NRA will be seen for the terrorist organization that it is. Gun owners are just too stupid and obsessed to see that. This one falls in the "Magically something happens" or "Who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes" category.

2. "There are fewer gun owners every month" belief. A few posters here have made that the core tenet of their faith. They cling to a flawed survey where gun owners didn't identify themselves and their ownership on a phone survey, so there must be fewer of them. Therefore they don't have to do anything to win but continue to sit on the couch and wait for all those old white gun owners to die off from eating too much BBQ. That allows them to ignore the obvious growth in states like Illinois where they have added 300,000 NEW FOID cards holders to grow the number from 1.6 million to 1.9 million in 2 years now.

There are other beliefs but those are the two that pop to mind reading this thread.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. Your reply would have been a lot shorter if you had just said, "You're right."

[Duckhunter935]

8. Lol

[GGJohn]

9. This is satire, right?

Do you write for the Onion?
I ask because this is the kind of satire the Onion would write.

[Lizzie Poppet]

11. False (and borderline slanderous).

All gun owners at least on this board are interested in is guns, gun rights and obfuscation.

Bullshit. Lots of gun owners on this board have expressed advocacy of numerous reasonable gun control measures. I've actually worked to pass a new gun control measure here in Oregon (universal background checks). Your assertion is transparently false.

Moreover, basing future gun control policies on mass shootings is ridiculous. These shootings are hugely mediagenic...but represent a small fraction of gun-related homicide. Given that the factors behind these different categories of shootings are very, very different, the best ways to prevent them will (obviously) differ. Even calls for banning "assault weapons" would be largely useless in preventing shootings (just like it was with the original AWB) because these weapons are used in a few hundred homicides per year (as opposed to about 11,000 for common handguns in non-mass-shootings).

I also suggest you don't place too much reliance on the "there are fewer gun owners" meme. There are almost certainly fewer...but by nowhere near the amount a couple methodologically-dubious studies might have you believe. In today's political climate, gun owners lie to researchers...trust me on that one.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. They usually have bupkis to say about the majority of firearm homicides...

...because to broach the subject at all raises questions that don't readily lend themselves
to easy or comfortable answers...

[Lizzie Poppet]

16. It's a curious blind spot, isn't it? (nm)

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. Bluster and bravado. You lot are demonstrably prone to false consensus effect

You're great at providing op-eds, reposting editorial cartoons and YouTube videos, and piss-poor
at finding voters that agree with you and vote accordingly.

A phrase I've used before is still true:

Gun controllers take to their keyboards, gun rights activists go to the ballot box

Remember the recall election in Colorado, where you had the free-spending support
of a multibillionaire, outspent the pro-gun and pro-recall types about 5:1 -
and still lost? I do.

Even an article in that hotbed of right-wing thought Mother Jones has
pointed out this inconvenient truth:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/10/gun-controls-biggest-problem-most-people-just-dont-care-very-much

David Atkins writes about the problem of getting gun control legislation passed:

There is a broadening schism in the activist community between those who focus on nuts-and-bolts electoral and legislative politics, and those who spend their energy on issue-area visibility and engagement....Election work and party involvement is increasingly seen as the unhip, uncool, morally compromised province of social climbers and "brogressives" not truly committed to the supposedly "real work" of social justice engagement by non-electoral means....

....There is certainly great value in persuasion, engagement and visibility model....But gun politics in the United States shows above all the weaknesses and limits of the engagement model. The vast majority of Americans support commonsense gun laws....Numerous organizations have engaged in countless petitions and demonstrations to shame legislators into action from a variety of perspectives, but it essentially never works...

There are lots of polls, and some of them probably show a greater intensity among those who support gun control. A lot depends on question wording. But that's sort of my point: If you get substantially different responses because of small changes in question wording or depending on which precise issues you ask about (background checks vs. assault weapons, gun locks vs. large-capacity magazines) that's a sign of low intensity.

Atkins is certainly right that Democratic legislators won't act on gun control until voters are mobilized, but that puts the cart before the horse. You can't mobilize voters on an issue they don't really care much about in the first place. In this case, I think the folks who prioritize issue-area visibility and engagement probably have the better of the argument. Until voters who favor gun control feel as strongly as those who oppose it, all the field work in the world won't do any good.

This article was discussed at some length in this very group, and real-life examples of
how gun owners succeeded where gun control control advocates failed were given:

"Mother Jones has a revelation"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172176990

By all means, do continue on with the "Women's Christian Temperance Union" approach-
I'm sure it will work as well in the future as it has in the past...

[sarisataka]

18. Funny, as in strange

the lack of attention this received from gun control activists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=177085

Maybe people should read this again
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027252032

[ileus]

6. gun owners see through their "we only want" lies.

[beevul]

12. "...somewhere between used car dealers and the more mendacious sorts of TV preachers."

So why are gun control advocates going this route? Gun owners already see them as
somewhere between used car dealers and the more mendacious sorts of TV preachers.

I see them as this guy:




They seem to want to set up a 'coupon day' for our rights.


I'll pass.