When looking for answers, make sure to ask the right questions on gun-violence.

[DetlefK]

Do you want to get rid of mass-shootings? How come other places have less mass-shootings?

Do you want to get rid of gun-murders?

Do you want to get rid of accidental gun-deaths?

Do you support the right of a good-guy-without-a-gun to legally purchase a gun and become a good-guy-with-a-gun?

Do you support the right of a bad-guy-without-a-gun to legally purchase a gun and become a bad-guy-with-a-gun?

Do you support the right of a maybe-bad-maybe-good-guy-without-a-gun to legally purchase a gun and become a maybe-bad-maybe-good-guy-with-a-gun?

Do you think that you are safer because the guy you are arguing with has a gun?

Do you think that the guy you are arguing with is safe from you because he has a gun?

Do you think a society where everybody owns a gun and anybody could commit murder anytime is a "polite" society?
If Yes, do you think that people enjoyed the Cold War, an era where world-wide peace was ensured by the threat of mutual nuclear destruction at a moment's notice (or random soldier's fuck-up)?

How many deaths is the preservation of your culture, customs, laws and constitution worth?
At what number do you set the limit and why exactly there?

[hack89]

1. "How many deaths"

I am assuming that this question applies to more than just guns? Because our culture accepts many things that kill a lot of people. Guns are not unique in this regard nor are they the worse offenders.

[DetlefK]

2. How many car-deaths, how many lead-paint-related deaths, how many asbestos-related deaths...

how many alcohol-related deaths, how many tobacco-related ddeaths, how many exhaust-fume-related deaths, how many pesticide-related deaths, how many botched-medical-treatment-related deaths, how many food-poisoning-deaths, how many stabbing-deaths, how many fatal-infection-deaths...

Somehow, people are willing to accept changes to tackle those kinds of deaths.

But changing something because of gun-deaths is just an outlandish over-reaction.

[hack89]

4. Gun violence has been steadily falling for 20 years and continues to fall

so it is disingenuous as hell to say we are doing nothing about gun deaths. There are plenty of gun laws. There are things we need like UBCs but to say that nothing is being done is nonsense.

[branford]

7. Note that violent crime, firearm and otherwise, has fallen

all while the number of available firearms has increased by many millions over the same time period and laws concerning the ownership and carrying of gun have demonstrably liberalized across most of the country (even before the Heller and McDonald Supreme Court decisions).

[sarisataka]

3. Are we trying to reduce violence,

or is it only gun violence that matters?

How many deaths is the preservation of your culture, customs, laws and constitution worth?

How many of your rights and freedoms are you willing to give up? Will any lives be saved?

[DetlefK]

5. The Patriot Act.

It would be a start to have that discussion at all.

"Freedom&quot TM) is a core-part of US-culture and nothing of it may ever be given away. Any discussion about that topic is unpatriotic and forbidden.

And after 9/11 the Patriot Act was passed and the US happily gave away the very freedom it had defended up to that moment, again, without any discussion.

[sarisataka]

6. Since the day it was proposed

I have opposed that unconstitutional travesty. It is a stain on Obama's legacy that any shred of it remains.

I will take my chances with the terrorists if that is the price of "safety"

[Eleanors38]

8. Sarisataka asks a fundamental question...

Since crime rates, including the oft-used "gun crimes," have been falling, we should be looking at what caused this persistent decline and learn from those causes. To limit the discussion to "Gun Crimes©" is to grossly distort any analysis of any societal problem, and to immediately force-fit the subject into an orthodox and doctrinaire societal policy of prohibition. Far better, but far more difficult, is to take a liberal/progressive approach to analyzing What is the problem, then identifying causes and addressing those. Prohibitionism, on the other hand, is expensive, corrupt, abusive of rights, ineffective-to-the-point-of-counter productivity, but it is Simple in concept and politically appealing.

It is time that controller/banners took the road less-traveled: It's hard.

[DetlefK]

11. It might be as simple/complex as a change in culture.

There recently was an article about gun-ownership in Switzerland. The country has no standing army, instead everyone is member of a militia and gets issued an assault-rifle he takes home after training, to be ready for war at a moment's notice.

The difference to the US? The attitude. The Swiss regard those guns/rifles not as personal tools: These rifles are intended for defending the country. This is not your rifle, this is your country's rifle. Using it for anything else is unpatriotic.

Culture in the US on the other hand is more focused on the individual, on the liberties and freedoms of the individual. The individual can do whatever the fuck it wants and you better not get in its way. Weapons and their use are part of this freedom, therefore they are a legitimate way of dealing with the individual's problems.




The drop in gun-violence might simply result from a subconscious shift from a libertarian attitude to a social attitude.

How did the influence of libertarianism on US-culture/-mindset change over the last decades?

[Eleanors38]

12. When examining our Constitution, the most striking thing is its "negative" couching...

of rights (Congress shall make no law...), and its reference to rights as individual and not communal. Also very notable is the notion that rights are pre-existing and only identified by the government, which is charged with protecting them.

I don't think this tradition runs much afoul of community interests in that the government IS charged with promoting the general welfare, which is a powerful tool which both Roosevelts and LBJ used.

Why crime rates have dropped is a vexing question. I just don't see the availability and numbers of guns as a significant factor (that seems manifest). The way both the economy and social services have deterioated, I would have expected crimes and homicides to go up, at least over the last 10 yrs. But those rates have fallen.

"Something is happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear."

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

13. re: "Something is happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear."

Yes but can you name the movie that used "For What It's Worth" by the Buffalo Springfield in the soundtrack?

[Eleanors38]

14. You got me.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. Lord of War...

...during the opening credits.

A relevant quote from the movie: "Where there's a will, there's a weapon."

[Eleanors38]

16. Good one. The first mention of "gun control" in a song was....

"Ball of Confusion (That's What the World is Today)" -- Temptations (1971). Written by Whitfield & Strong.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. Really???

Interesting!!!

[ileus]

9. Why would I be arguing with people?

[DetlefK]

10. Are trying to have an argument with me?