Rapes during the Battle of Berlin, and my Reichstag guide

[steve2470]

Last edited Thu Mar 29, 2018, 06:41 PM - Edit history (4)

As most of you WW2 history buffs know, there WAS a massive epidemic of rapes of Berlin women during the Battle of Berlin. During my recent tour of the German Reichstag, the male guide brought up the point that many women served in the Soviet Army. I then wondered, in response, what those women knew about the rapes. I'm guessing most of the rapes occurred in units with no women.

The guide admitted that the rapes did occur but claimed that the incidence had been inflated by the Allies. I was shocked he said that, and just kept my mouth shut to avoid disrupting the tour.

From what I know, there is no definitive number on the rapes, but I've read in the neighborhood of 100k births 9 months later that are attributed to it. On my phone or I'd provide a link.

eta:

Estimates of rape victims from the city's two main hospitals ranged from 95,000 to 130,000. One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in the city, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to have been much higher among the 1.4 million estimated victims in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least two million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

eta2:

At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[10] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

[democratisphere]

1. The evidence of the 100k births proves unwritten history is lying.

Rapes have occurred during wars and incursions throughout all of history. Some human males have no boundaries when it comes to exerting their power on others.

[JayhawkSD]

2. War is an insane and inhumane experience by definition.

When you have spent months battling your way to a city and seen your comrades in arms blown up, maimed and killed in large numbers and in horrible ways, when you reach the center of the home of the nation you have been fighting and you have survived hell, and know that it is over and that you have "won" the battle, you go insane. Not "nuts" or "crazy" but literally insane. You are in the middle of the people that have been killing your people and trying to kill you for ages. You have been in a long and bloody fight for your life and everything has been about death.

Clearly, you have never fought for your life and seen your brethren killed by the dozen, or you would not be able to babble nonsense about "boundaries" and "exerting their power on others."

[democratisphere]

5. War does not give one license to engage in totally f'ing barbaric behavior.

Barbaric behavior totally obliterates any "victories" and destroys your purpose for being! WTF!

[JayhawkSD]

6. License? War is, repeat IS, "totally f'ing barbaric behavior."

What do you think dropping cluster bombs is? Or flying a B-52 over and dropping 20,000 pounds of high explosive? Get real.

[Pope George Ringo II]

9. Unfortunately, it often does

We're very much in one of those areas where "should" and "does" are different things. The Germans were never going to punish any Einsatzgruppe members, and the Russians were never going to punish any soldiers for raping German women. Both groups knew it. And while it did hurt the Germans' efforts to pacify Russia, the Russians never paid any price for returning the favor.

[thucythucy]

11. I've seen and read interviews of German rape survivors

who say the first Russian troops they encountered--the front line combat soldiers--were professional and even polite.

For instance, one woman whose interview is featured in the BBC documentary series "World at War" (which is excellent, by the way) said basically, "The first soldiers who came to the door asked if there were any German soldiers in the house, and if we had any weapons. We said 'no' and they went away. The next soldiers were not so nice. One of them raped me."

I've seen this repeated several times. The soldiers you describe, who had been "in a long and bloody fight" were better behaved than the more rear echelon troops that followed behind. (The same, by the way, seemed also to be true for looting. The troops doing the actual fighting did far less looting than the rear echelon administrative types who followed).

Combat doesn't justify rape. I don't think it even explains rape, except inasmuch as it gives an excuse and opportunity to those inclined to take that kind of advantage.

[JayhawkSD]

3. Of course there were rapes during the sack of Berlin.

Just as there were rapes during the sack of Rome, and Carthage, and Rheims, and...

These rapes were not about sex. They were not about control. They were about rage. "You have been sending your sons, husbands and fathers out to kill us and now you are going to pay the price."

They were not righteous. They were not civilized. They were an act of war, and nothing is righteous or civilized about any part of war.

You want civilized behavior? Then don't sanction war.

[steve2470]

4. yes of course

I was just surprised the guide sought to minimize it. If he had just nodded his head and said "I don't know anything about the female Soviet soldiers and the rapes", that would have met my expectations.

[JayhawkSD]

8. "...and just kept my mouth shut to avoid disrupting the tour."

I admire you for that, by the way. The act of a gentleman.

Yes, I get it. But nationalists sort of reflexively speak in defense of their country and countrymen, even to the extent of babbling nonsense. Surely you've heard Americans doing similar? I know I have, and I've heard Brits do it a lot.

[steve2470]

10. thanks!

I figured we both agreed that rapes did occur and we'd only be quibbling over the exact number, which no one truly knows. No point in having a heated debate in the middle of a tour of the Reichstag.

Yes, I've heard Americans do that and I'm sure other countries' peoples do that as well. It's possible that he might have had Russian friends or family members or grown up in the eastern part of Berlin or the old East Germany. He was, I'm guessing, in his fifties. As far as I know, he was German but I don't know that for a fact.

[Pope George Ringo II]

7. East Prussia might actually have gotten it worse

That was the Russians' first taste of conquering Germans, and they had a lot of vengeance planned. It's worth keeping in mind that the Red Army actually got some serious manpower from liberating territory as it went west, and those were men who had been under German occupation for a few years and were somewhat less than fond of their former masters. Also, huge numbers of them had been brutalized by Stalin's policies in the 30s and had some difficulties functioning as a result.

Overall, I'd have to assume the rapes really were exaggerated as everybody west of the Bug demonized the "Russian barbarians," but I'd also have to assume the actual incidences were simply staggering.

[thucythucy]

12. When was your tour?

I think Germans in general and German women in particular were very reluctant to discuss this, for all the reasons people don't talk about rape, plus the fact that Germans and Germany were held in such (justifiable) disregard during the first decades after the war.

I just finished reading "Fire and Fury"--not the book about Trump, but by Randall Hansen about the Allied bombing of Germany from 1942 to 1945. He describes how Germans who lived through the worst of the bombings were reluctant to talk about their own suffering, in light of the Holocaust and the sense of communal guilt. He wrote his book more than sixty years after the end of the war, and people were only now beginning to share their experiences.

And was the guide German?

I'm curious to know.

[steve2470]

13. a few weeks ago

I assumed the male guide was German, but I don't know this to be a fact.

[thucythucy]

14. Interesting.

Maybe he was just uncomfortable with the topic of rape? Was he an older gentleman?

Traveling can bring on lots of strange experiences. I was in St. Petersburg (Russia) in 2004. My girlfriend and I were heading into the terminal to take the night train to Moscow. We passed a little street band, who for some reason assumed we were German (I guess there are lots of German tourists go to Russia, the band members heard us talking a foreign language and just assumed we were German?) So they began playing "Deutschland uber Alles". It sounded very strange to my ears, let me tell you! We said, "No no, we're American, USA!" and they broke into a ragged version of "The Star Spangled Banner." Of course we put some rubles in their cup. I was tempted to quiz them on their knowledge of national anthems (Finland, Greece--San Marino, Nepal???) but we had a train to catch.

Very weird experience though.

I love to travel. I just wish I had the time and money to do more of it.

[steve2470]

15. he was in his fifties like me, so not that older really nt

[thucythucy]

16. You'll probably never know.

Germany is a fascinating country.

Did you get a chance to go to Potsdam, or see the Berlin Zoo? The Zoo is amazing, maybe the best in the world.

I've been to Berlin a bunch of times, but have never been to the Reichstag.

[steve2470]

17. yep saw Potsdam and two of the palaces

Sanssouci and the one that the Potsdam conference was held in. Didn't get to the zoo.

[thucythucy]

18. Sounds great!

I went to Sanssouci, just on a day trip from Berlin. Lovely.