600-year-old linen bras found in Austrian castle

[Starry Messenger]

http://news.yahoo.com/600-old-linen-bras-found-austrian-castle-192408678.html

VIENNA (AP) — A revolutionary discovery is rewriting the history of underwear: Some 600 years ago, women wore bras.

The University of Innsbruck said Wednesday that archeologists found four linen bras dating from the Middle Ages in an Austrian castle. Fashion experts describe the find as surprising because the bra had commonly been thought to be only little more than 100 years old as women abandoned the tight corset.

Instead, it appears the bra came first, followed by the corset, followed by the reinvented bra.

One specimen in particular "looks exactly like a (modern) brassiere," says Hilary Davidson, fashion curator for the London Museum. "These are amazing finds."

Although the linen garments were unearthed in 2008, they did not make news until now says Beatrix Nutz, the archaeologist responsible for the discovery.

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[iemitsu]

1. i thought that coco channel invented the bra.

or did she just invent the rocket bra?

[Starry Messenger]

2. I think the rocket bra came later, 1940's.

Evidently some medieval ladies invented the bra itself many centuries before that though. I wonder how many period films have women wrongly wearing corsets in them?

[REP]

4. Mary Phelps Jacob is usually credited with inventing the modern bra

[LaurenG]

3. I love this but would like to know why they think women didn't wear

Anything under their dresses. I 'm pretty sure they had to have worn something like panties at least part of the time.

[Starry Messenger]

5. They swear that medieval women went commando.

Evidently undies were a sign of manhood:

Also found at Lemberg Castle in Tyrol was a linen undergarment that looks very much like a pair of panties. But Nutz said it is men's underwear — women did not wear anything under their flowing skirts back then.

"Underpants were considered a symbol of male dominance and power," she said.

Medieval drawings often show a man and a woman fighting for a pair of underpants in a symbolic battle to see who "wears the trousers" in the family.

[LaurenG]

15. I know, I guess they were all just sent to the barn for a week each month to

sit on the straw. It's silly to think they didn't wear something at least sometimes.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

21. They must have worn diapers.

My grandmother told me about making diapers to wear during menstrual periods, with a friend of hers. This was before they sold regular sanitary pads. They started selling them after WW I and they were made out of gauze. The nurses in WWI had gotten the idea.

My grandmother was born in 1898.

[LaurenG]

24. That's interesting.

My grandmother said sort of the same thing.

[Crunchy Frog]

33. My grandmother described something similar in her autobiography.

She was born in 1905.

[Gormy Cuss]

37. So did mine

and my mother said she remembered being embarrassed on wash day when my grandmother hung her "rags" out on the clothesline.

[LaurenG]

39. Yep. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

6. Were they underwires?

I'd love to see a reconstruction of one of these. They look like mere modesty garments but the description of lace adornments brings them to a different level.

[Starry Messenger]

7. They almost look like it, don't they?

I'm amazed by how modern they look, with the darts and straps. I'd love to see a reconstruction too!

[REP]

8. Modesty? I'm thinking utility myself...

(keeping them, erm, unsweaty in warm weather or under heavy clothing)

[Gormy Cuss]

9. Yes, linen would be good for that.

Good thinking!

[REP]

10. Not really 'good thinking' - it's the main reason I wear an Iron Maidenform myself!

Some days, I don't know if it's worse wearing it or not wearing it!

[FloridaJudy]

11. Yup.

Mine keep the girls from breaking out in itchy rashes, or hitting me when I have to move fast. Those look rather comfortable, and they'd have to be linen, since cotton wasn't grown in Europe.

[Starry Messenger]

12. I would love a linen bra.

I have to wear scary things that look like a cross between Spanx and Darth Vader's breast plate.

[robinlynne]

26. lol!

[Crunchy Frog]

34. Somebody should do reconstructions and put them on the market.

[Zorra]

13. I wonder if the woman that invented the bra ever got any credit or compensation

for it.

I suspect that she may have been a woman with H cups and a sturdy loom.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

16. Are you kidding?

Women weren't allowed to own property.

They couldn't even keep their name.

They were just Mrs. His Name.

[Hestia]

18. Not true at all - women were allowed inheritances they were just last in line for property, money,

During the Middle Ages, women had rights. They could own property, and, in fact, could reign as monarchs in most countries. They had access to safe ways to escape abuse. They were legally not chattel unless they were slaves, and there were few slaves in most western European countries of the Middle Ages. Women could, and did, get educations, and included some of the best scholars of Europe, though not as commonly as men.
Women did not have the same rights as men. They were always last in line to inherit property or titles, after any living brothers.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_were_women_treated_in_the_middle_ages#ixzz2166MPCqF

Interesting info.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

23. I keep forgetting the rights of women have fluxuated.

Sometimes they have power and other times they have had none.

Cleopatra comes to mind. She was respected as a leader and teacher in the ancient world. Recreating the library at Alexandria was a major feat.

BTW: I notice when guys think of Cleopatra they tend to dwell on her,...how shall I put this,...comfortable in her own skin type of sexual gratification with anyone she wanted.

I remind them this was before women shaved their legs.

Reality bites.

[ahg]

14. Wasn't the bra invented by Harry Titsling?

[lumpy]

31. According to Trivia Pursuit. I always thouight that answer was thrown in for

a laugh.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

17. For those thinking this is really "modern"

From ancient Greece, even predating the Roman Empire:

[img][/img]

[Starry Messenger]

19. The description calls those a bikini.

Looks more like a bandeau. I think the novelty in the new find is that most women of the Middle Ages were thought to wear corsets.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. Actually what this discovery informs us about

is women went from bras to corsets and then back to bras.

That's pretty significant.

However the concept of a covering like the bikini top goes back to the earliest times.

A support garment worn under the outwear which we now call a "bra" is now known to be much older than previously thought.

[Crunchy Frog]

35. I've always associated corsets more with the Victorian era.

But I don't know much about the history of lingerie.

[Gormy Cuss]

38. That's a spoof.

Follow it back to the original esquire.com article here:

http://www.esquire.com/women/bikini-history#slide-2

Note that the alt text for the photo says "fake bikini."

The free weights were the tip off for me.

[Thor_MN]

22. I'm sorry, but is that a wardrobe malfunction I'm seeing there?

I guess there really isn't anything new/

[Botany]

25. And the old german word for those bras would be "Holds 'em from flopping."

[mysuzuki2]

27. Die Brustenhalter is the German word, I believe.

[Botany]

29. Danke

Das ich nicth Deutsches spreche sehr gut ich bin ein pferdkopf

Ich haben ein Imac mit magischem material Ja!

[mysuzuki2]

30. Bitteschoen meine gute Freund(in).

[mysuzuki2]

28. and in related news,

a 599 year old letter between 16 year old boys discussing how to unhook the linen bras.

[eppur_se_muova]

32. There's no written history of "unmentionables" ? Gee, I wonder why ... nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

36. Somebody must have invented the bra and panties LONG AGO.

Because they are necessary. Women have not changed in their physical attributes in hundreds of thousands of years.