Trust is earned, not automatic.

[redqueen]

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/in-rape-culture-all-men-are-guilty-until-proven-innocent/

I don't agree with the framing in the title this writer used, but the message is spot on.

No, women don't have an obligation to view any man as being one of the 'good guys,' right off the bat. It's nothing to do with a presumption of innocence. It is about trust.

[chrisa]

1. I think this applies to anything really.

Someone you don't know can be anything. Actually, someone you do know can be anything too (rapist, killer, etc.).

If I see you walking up to me at a dark street corner, I don't know if you are going to say hi or bash me over the head with a baseball bat. It's pretty much common sense.

I always laugh when I see men whining about this... I don't know what to call it... but it's whined about a lot.

[redqueen]

2. It does.

The whining is puzzling at best. Outrageously entitled at worst.

[CrispyQ]

3. Trust is never automatic.

Never.

[iris27]

4. Schrodinger's Rapist is the term I've heard.

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

Now, you want to become acquainted with a woman you see in public. The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.

“But wait! I don’t want that, either!”

Well, no. But do you think about it all the time? Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones? Because, for women, it is. When I go on a date, I always leave the man’s full name and contact information written next to my computer monitor. This is so the cops can find my body if I go missing. My best friend will call or e-mail me the next morning, and I must answer that call or e-mail before noon-ish, or she begins to worry. If she doesn’t hear from me by three or so, she’ll call the police. My activities after dark are curtailed. Unless I am in a densely-occupied, well-lit space, I won’t go out alone. Even then, I prefer to have a friend or two, or my dogs, with me. Do you follow rules like these?

So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?

[CrispyQ]

5. Excellent blog. Thanks for posting the link. -nt

[redqueen]

10. That analogy became very popular when Rebecca Watson was lambasted

for daring to say that men shouldn't proposition women they don't know while alone in elevators at 4 am. I'd never seen such uproar, and it made it clear to me (once again) how deeply misogynistic society still is.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. sort of how i feel about straight people. nt

[seabeyond]

7. i would imagine the blacks feel the same. i can totally understand

and would not need it explained to me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. i think most straight people dont bother to take a lgbt perspective when they state things. most

white people, dont take a black perspective. men dont take womens perspective

i say perspective, but i also mean history/condition/socio-economic status/right etc

it all boils down to power, those who have it and those who don't

its why straight feminists are not the same as lgbt feminists. its why i dont often feel welcome in this forum, because most of your perspectives are shaped by heterosexuality and mine is not.

[seabeyond]

9. i agree with you. i am sorry you dont feel welcome.

and i dont think it hurts to listen so people can understand better, even if they may not ultimately agree with you.

i learned years ago, that from an hetero's perspective, i did not see all angles of the civil marriages/marriage differences. i opened mouth to express with all good intent and support of the gay community and they let me know where my thinking was wrong. since, i listen. i dont feel the need to express my opinion, i have more the desire to hear what is being said. ask questions. and learn.

[seabeyond]

11. the last sentence changes..... it seems like you are suggesting that there is not room for

understanding. or growth.

that there will always be a divide that we can never hope to merge with,

i havent found that in most any aspect in life when both people are open to listening.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. the majority very rarely accomodate for minority opinion

you see this in every other problem when there is a power difference. i am sure there could be understanding, however i see that as unlikely.

[seabeyond]

13. again, it feels like you're saying, not gonna happen

and shutting the door. if you shut the door, without even trying, then how can you say that? is it possible that what you say will not be received from another? sure.

but, you haven't given any examples in the different posts letting us know that you are not comfortable here. i, personally, would love to hear your opinion on a number of issues and have an actual discussion. your age, your experience and the education you are receiving are all wonderful source of info. that doesn't mean people will not disagree with you on issues. but, it doesn't mean you are not heard and you are not respected.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. i am telling you what i experience as a minority voice

and why i personally dont trust the majority. as you and others have said earlier, trust is earned. i am saying its not just earned vis-a-vis men and women, its earned in other regards as well.

[seabeyond]

15. i have yet to hear any anti gay mentality here. i would hope you had the courage to speak out

if you felt there was any of that in the womans forum, allowing the rest of us the opportunity to support you.

with women trusting men, we are discussing a physical threat to us. that is something specific and a real concern.

when discussing a minority group trusting others, we are talking an understanding, acceptance, willingness to listen and learn.

i dont know where on this forum, in all the time you have been here, you feel we cannot be trusted.

"trust is earned"

people also have to be allowed the opportunity to earn that trust.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. again, i used the word perspective pretty deliberately

straight feminists very rarely use an lgbt perspective in their analysis of issues. the trust is not physical, but that i do not trust straight feminists to necessarily take up my issues or try to see why i see something differently from them.

i no longer wish to continue this conversation because it seems like you are demanding my understanding/tolerance or whatever, and i dont think these things can be demanded.

on edit: also, please understand that the threat you face for rape, i do too and the additional threat of being gay bashed.

[seabeyond]

17. you were not excluded when i say physical violence against women.

and i would never be quiet with gay bashing, though, i do understand that is something you face that i do not. and i have yet to see it in womens forum.

[LadyHawkAZ]

18. While I agree to a point

I think lately it's been carried too far and become an unhealthy level of fear. Caution and awareness of your surroundings are good, but if a woman has reached the point where she suspects everyone, all the time, it's gone from healthy caution to unhealthy paranoia, and I feel like paranoia is being pushed a lot more since the Watson story.

I remember growing up in the 70's, when "Stranger Danger!" was the New Big Thing. We were all carefully schooled by our parents to fear The Stranger who would Pull Us Into His Car, Take Us Away and do Bad Things. It's been debunked recently as not only unhelpful but harmful, since the majority of "danger" comes from people close to the child, and in teaching them never to talk to strangers (i.e. almost anyone) they cut the child off from potential sources of help. That's what this feels like to me- Stranger Danger redux. The greatest rape threat comes from people a woman knows and who has already earned her trust, yet we're once again being taught to fear the stranger on the street to the point of avoiding all contact. This doesn't seem healthy to me.

YMMV

[redqueen]

19. I think it comes from experience, the level of fear.

I know many women who, when the RW issue exploded, thought it was absolute nonsense that she'd be afraid of the guy. Then there are those who, like me, have had bad experiences, and probably those experiences had colored their perceptions of possible danger.

I was just talking to seabeyond on another thread about being approached by strange men in cars while just walking down the street as an underaged girl. Those experiences scared me, so did the date rapes. So did being followed home as a young girl by a couple of men. It doesn't make me afraid of every man, but it would make me very cautious about how to reject an offer from a strange man in an elevator. Yes indeed. I would be very worried about the repercussions, and would probably only refuse the offer after I was stepping off the elevator.

[LadyHawkAZ]

20. I understand where it comes from

I just have trouble seeing it as a healthy reaction. Placed in an elevator with an aggressively horny jerk who was annoying me, I'd probably just tell him to fuck off and let the dice roll from there- come to think of it, I have done this in similar situations. Getting raped didn't make me afraid, but it did make me aggressive when pressed.

[seabeyond]

21. it did make me aggressive when pressed.

i dont know if it is getting older (more secure in self) or rape, but ya... lol. getting aggressive seems to work for me. sometimes i will ask self if that is the best approach, but i really dont have a lot fo thinking time before it is there and out... so, meh. i hear ya.

[LadyHawkAZ]

22. I was much more meek in my teens

aggressive works, meek, I have found, does not. I don't usually stop to think about it either; it's automatic reaction now.

I'll usually ask them to go away politely first. Depends on the situation.

[seabeyond]

23. but, i think that is so common and why so many older men go after the young. of course

we are meek, unsure, shy, .... whatever.

that is the predator going after the prey and why many men (except the totally inept) dont go after women. once a woman hits about 24, the whole world changes. or begins to, anyway.