What Happened to All of the Women in Computer Science?

[Starry Messenger]

I'm a non-math person, but I live in SV, so the gender disparity in tech always interests me. I've seen a few of these "what happened to the women" articles recently, though none have really seemed to nail it.

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/business-economics/happened-women-computer-science-98057/

The original compute-ers, people who operated computing machines, were mostly women. At that period of history, most typists were women and their skills seemed to transfer from that job to the next. As late as the second half of the 1960s, women were seen as naturals for working with computers. As Grace Hopper explained in a 1967 Cosmopolitan article:

It’s just like planning dinner. You have to plan ahead and schedule everything so it’s ready when you need it. Programming requires patience and the ability to handle detail. Women are “naturals” at computer programming.

But then, this happened:



<snip>

The folks at NPR, who made the chart, interviewed information studies professor Jane Margolis. She interviewed hundreds of computer science majors in the 1990s, right after women started dropping out of the field. She found that having a personal computer as a kid was a strong predictor of choosing the major, and that parents were much more likely to buy a PC for their sons than they were for their daughters."

[bravenak]

1. Is web design computer science?

I know quite a few graphic artists and web design specialists. Maybe it's they way they categorize things. The didn't take the university courses, lots of self study, online courses, and then taking certification tests. Hell, I remember learning dos back in jr. High, then promptly forgetting damn near all of it. Don't really need a degree to work in computers anymore, by the time you finish the four years, whatever you learned is kinda stale. Everybody I know just uses their portfolio and the certifications as proof of experience.
I only know a few that even work with hardware, but they've been building this stuff since they were kids.
I hate math though. The math prerequisite makes me just say, never-mind. I'll just use templates and plug-ins. And buy apps. I may finish up php, and the html5 (i guess that includes javascript, css3, and html (the new cleaner version) because it's not that hard.
It's not that the programming languages seem difficult, just tedious.
And college is so expensive, I think we have been trying for traditional careers that have been proven successful in the past.

So, basically, I know nothing.

[Starry Messenger]

2. That's a hell of a good point about categorizing.

I'm the same way about the math--I actually had a Commodore 64 as a kid that dad got us, hoping me or my brother would get the hint. It didn't take.

But I do know several women who went into the design side of tech--do they get plopped into the arts & design category and therefore disappear from the stats?

I know nothing either! Another frustrating article I found recently about the Stanford graduating class of 1994, the first "Internet Age" group: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/23/us/gender-gaps-stanford-94.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=3

Lots of charts and anecdotes about the lack of women in start-up culture, but no conclusions.

[bravenak]

3. I'm starting to see the problem.

Women relegated to support roles. We do too much helping men get ahead. Gotta stop being self sacrificing. This makes me say, ok, time to learn computers. I'm only 33, how bad can math hurt? I always try to encourage my younger cousins to get into computers. But, they're stupid. They like traditional roles based on 'christian' principals, and because they're idiots they think men like that. Stresses me out.

[CrispyQ]

5. I fell for that 'girls aren't good at math' crap for way too long!

When I woke up to the smell of the bullshit, I signed up for a college algebra class at my local community college. I aced it, just barely, but it was a huge confidence boost for me.

[bravenak]

8. I did the same thing.

I was so scared of graphing equations that I failed second semester twice. Then I just gave up and decided it didn't matter, I had all my other credits anyway. Then i passed. No more math for me after that. I think I may just have to take another course too.

[Starry Messenger]

7. +1

"We do too much helping men get ahead." I guess we think it is going to be reciprocated across the board?

I'd like to learn more tech too--I majored in art, but the technology for things like 3-D printers seems to be getting more accessible. Some of the computer design programs look kind of challenging, but I taught myself inDesign for another project last year, so maybe I'm not totally out of luck yet.

I'm sorry about your cousins! That would be stressful. Some guys might like a woman who doesn't challenge his abilities, but I think that is getting more rare.

[bravenak]

10. In Design. I might check that out.

My cousins will be fine as soon as they take off the blinders. They're slipping right now.
I refuse to say 'I told you so."

I think I just want to build websites and things of that nature. I love the internet. I want to be helping everyone get on and make easy to use sites for people like my mother.


Thanks for the article, it's making me think.

[jeff47]

9. You don't actually need much math.

Complex math only gets relevant when you get very far into the "science" part of computer science. At one time, almost all the work was down at that level. But that time passed long ago.

Today, a typical software developer doesn't need any math more complex than what they learned in junior high. Yes, there's some specialized areas where more advanced math is helpful (matrices are heavily used in high-end graphics, for example). But there's not a lot of people writing that software.

If you want to start learning to program computers, I recommend starting with Python. It's a scripting language so it's a lot simpler than languages like C++, yet allows you to make "real", useful programs.

In fact, a lot of software development is moving to these simpler languages because computers are getting so fast we don't need to squeeze every bit of performance out of the chips anymore. Current CPUs spend a large part of their time waiting for other parts of the computer, so using lower level languages just means the CPU waits more. Simpler languages mean its easier to write and maintain the program, even when you could use more complex languages.

[bravenak]

13. So, with only algebra, I could learn the Python language?

I'm terribly good with learning languages, written, not spoken, maybe that helps?
What you just said makes a lot of sense to me, they they're simplifying languages at this time. I'll look up a book on Python, I already have the C++ books, but , I just never broke them open, they looked intimidating to me. I'm really interested in computers and I never want to do any type of accounting for a living again. I hate the cycles.

[jeff47]

14. Yes. It's unlikely you'd use anything more complicated than division.

And the vast majority of the time you'd not use anything more complex than addition and subtraction.

We're at the point where writing software is about writing the concept of the software, instead of the gory details about how that concept is enacted. Those details are dealt with in libraries, operating systems and compilers.

Here's an example of a web server written in Python:

from BaseHTTPServer import BaseHTTPRequestHandler,HTTPServer

class Handler (BaseHTTPRequestHandler):
  def do_GET(self):
    self.wfile.write("Hello, world!&quot

if __name__ == "__main__":
  httpd = HTTPServer(("", 80), Handler)
  httpd.serve_forever()

If you run that, and then point a web browser at the computer running it, the page on the web browser will say "Hello, world!"

That took 7 lines of Python. It would take hundreds of lines of C++. Because instead of having to write a web server and the gory details of what it does when a request comes in, I can just use a library (That's what HTTPServer is).

Today, software developers aren't doing math. They're assembling Legos. What makes it difficult is there's an inifinite number of Legos to choose from, and you have to know good ways to put them together. But that knowledge is pretty easy to build up over time.

[bravenak]

15. Thank you, that is awesome.

I think that this is the direction I'll point myself in. I need a foundation I can build on and add to over time. I get bored so easily. This is hella cool.

[Gormy Cuss]

16. Most web designers write code and thus some computer science background is helpful.

As to needing a degree, there's a difference between being an end user of applications and writing code for them. Because of my research background I know many statistical programmers and they use specialized languages like SAS to process raw data into sophisticated analytic reports. All of the *good* ones I know have extensive training in computer science though most don't have degrees in it. I know how to write simple programs in SAS but only because I had a set of templates handed to me by a programmer and I adapted them over the years. IOW, I'm not a programmer, but an end user who understands a little code. These days I work in web site design as a content provider but I can also make simple changes in the programming modules to modify style sheets beyond what is offered in the templates. I have a friend who is a web site developer and programmer and she writes a lot of code to add function and to tweak the look of sites for clients. So in her case, what she's doing is definitely on the computer science side of things. What I do is more like being the impatient kid who knows a few tricks so that she doesn't have to wait for the developer to make the changes for her.

[bravenak]

17. That makes sense.

Thank you. I'll have to spend more time learning the front end stuff. I was to be able to build what I want from the bones out, rather than relying on templates and such. I had worried for a long time that I'd have to do math, but I feel better now.

[CrispyQ]

4. It's been several years, but here on DU someone posted an ad for computers for kids.

The boys' computer was black & grey & had 21 functions. The girls' computer was pink & had half the functions. I think, how much innovation are we stifling by funneling kids into these predefined roles based on their sex.

[Starry Messenger]

11. There was a cartoon recently about gender and LEGOS.

It's a big image, so I'll post a link to the page that shows it:

http://rebeccahains.com/2014/12/23/lego-friends-comic-goes-viral-an-interview-with-illustrator-maritsa-patrinos/

I believe it about the pink computer. I still like and look at pop culture and toys, and representation is so important. There are movements now for getting women and even more, women of color, into coding. I think we also need media that portrays more characters than "disaffected male nerd" being the smart person in the story.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

6. The one I knew/know personally

got out, got a great job at Lexis/Nexis as a database person, worked happily there for a half dozen or so years, got laid off, and hasn't found re-employment in the last half dozen years or so since. She does artwork and some freelance web design from home now. I was working as a programmer/coder at a different, much smaller company at the time, and lost my own job around the same time, and likewise never made it back into the industry. The 'dot com' crash (and the Bush depression) took a lot of us down, of both genders.

[Starry Messenger]

12. I totally realize that too.

I think we're going to see round three soon here in the Bay Area. It's starting to get that dot-bomb feel around here.

[Starry Messenger]

19. Bye.

[yardwork]

20. You didn't even read the article, did you?

Every one of your statements is refuted just in the snip that is posted in the OP.

[ismnotwasm]

21. You kiss your mother with that mouth?