The End of the Road for NIST

[JohnyCanuck]

The End of the Road for NIST
By Tony Szamboti

Editor's Note: In recent years, various members of the AE911Truth team have been working on a white paper titled “Areas of Specific Concern in the NIST WTC Reports.” Last month they finally completed the document. Its 25 concise points offer the most convincing proof that the reports produced by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) on the September 11, 2001, destruction of the three World Trade Center buildings were unscientific and fraudulent. The authors of "The 25 Points" designed the document to provide material that would compel the convening of a grand jury. Whether or not a grand jury is ever impaneled in any jurisdiction, though, readers of this white paper have the duty and privilege of acting as a virtual grand jury in all jurisdictions. After weighing the evidence meticulously laid out in "The 25 Points," readers can, by their resulting actions, help determine whether there will one day be a new, fully funded, truly independent, wholly transparent, and unimpeachably honest investigation of 9/11.

Areas of Specific Concern in the NIST WTC Reports

Below is a series of twenty-five provable points which clearly demonstrate that the reports produced by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) on the destruction of the World Trade Center (WTC) were unscientific and fraudulent. Therefore NIST itself – including its lead authors, Shyam Sunder and John Gross - should be investigated.

1. OMISSION OF GIRDER STIFFENERS SHOWN ON FRANKEL DRAWING #9114 2
2. OMISSION OF THREE LATERAL SUPPORT BEAMS ON THE 13TH FLOOR G3005 BEAM 2
3. WTC 7 COLLAPSE AT FREE-FALL ACCELERATION IS NOT EXPLAINED 3
4. VIDEOS OF THE COLLAPSE OF WTC 7 BETRAY NIST’S COMPUTER MODEL 3
5. CLAIMS OF INVESTIGATING CONTROLLED DEMOLITION WITHOUT TESTING FOR EXPLOSIVE RESIDUES 4
6. CHANGES OF STATEMENTS ON COMPOSITE BEAMS AND SHEAR STUD USE BETWEEN DRAFTS 5
7. REFUSING OF FOIA REQUESTS

More: http://www.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/926-25-points-of-specific-concern-in-the-nist-wtc-reports.html

[nationalize the fed]

1. k/r

NIST finally admits "Free Fall" of WTC7

[hack89]

2. I am sure NIST is sad at their impending demise.

so when will all these virtual grand juries shut them down?

[hack89]

3. So explain to me how an independent 9/11 investigation take place.

who would conduct it? And who would be excluded?

[nationalize the fed]

4. Here are some ideas

First, release all data. How NIST gets away with keeping their data secret is astounding. Do you think it's a matter of "national security"?

Then, release the Damn 28 pages already, just like Obama promised the victims families.

Obama’s Unkept Promise to 9/11 Families: Releasing the 28 Pages
http://28pages.org/2014/08/18/obamas-unkept-promise-to-911-families-declassifying-28-pages/
http://28pages.org/

What would a new WTC7 Collapse Investigation look like?
Mick West, Oct 9, 2013.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/what-would-a-new-wtc7-collapse-investigation-look-like.2511/

When people like you ask "What would a new investigation look like" we're halfway there. So thanks! We'll get there one day.

Top NSA Whistleblower: We Need a New 9/11 Investigation Into the Destruction of the World Trade Center

Bill Binney is the NSA’s former senior technical director, 32-year NSA veteran widely regarded as a “legend” within the agency, one of the world’s top crypto-mathematicians, who managed thousands of employees at the agency.

Binney was the original NSA whistleblower, and one of two NSA veterans whose example inspired Edward Snowden.

Binney recently signed Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth’s petition, stating:

There is clearly evidence that needs to be considered in a review of what happened in 9/11. We the public deserve an honest complete review of the facts with scientific interpretation and implications as to what really happened.

Two days ago, Binney said in an interview that speaking with physicists and controlled demolition experts convinced him that the investigations to date have – at best - been incompetent, and failed to address the observable facts:

Skip to 9:16

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/high-level-nsa-whistleblower-need-new-investigation-destruction-world-trade-center-911.html

9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: “It is a national scandal”; “This investigation is now compromised”; and “One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up”

[gyroscope]

5. NIST could put all the questions to rest

by simply addressing item 13. REFUSAL TO TEST FOR EXPLOSIVE RESIDUE

After the world's greatest terrorist attack that involved massive primary and/or secondary explosions the government agency tasked with investigating the destruction of the WTC refuses to test for the use of explosives?? Only possible explanation, is a criminal cover-up

[hack89]

6. Because NIST didn't conduct the criminal investigation?

Last edited Thu Nov 6, 2014, 10:34 AM - Edit history (1)

they didn't start their study until a year after 9/11. You are directing your question to the wrong group.

Why didn't the Truthers test for explosive residue? There was dust covering rooftops all over lower Manhattan that could have been collected and tested with ease. I have never understood why, if the Truth movement is full of engineers and scientists, why they failed to do basic forensic tests. Or perhaps they did and didn't like the results.

[gyroscope]

9. NIST was responsible for investigating WHY the towers collapsed, genius

explosives are terrorists favorite weapon.
hence it would be absolutely insane if not criminal for them NOT to test for the use of explosives after a terrorist attack.

independent scientists have indeed tested for explosive residue and found nanothermite in the World Trade Center dust.
your ignorant assumptions have proven false once again and again you live up to your name. congrats!

[hack89]

11. But the FBI tested and found nothing

Jones found paint chips. He ignored basic scientific procedures to include actually studying real nanothermate to compare to his sample.

You are way too late to the party. Everything you post is a decade old and has been debunked numerous times.

[gyroscope]

13. You're just making crap up as you go along

the FBI tested for explosive residue? that's news to me.

do you have a link or are you making it up?

[wildbilln864]

38. no they were not "paint chips"!

And Jones isn't the only one. And no it hasn't been debunked. Merely denied by no-truthers and dumb asses who don't know shit about basic physics! JREF has failed you miserably.

[hack89]

39. Ten years gone and nothing new

Must be frustrating that no one recognizes your brilliance.

[wildbilln864]

46. guess you know that from your own experience eh hack?

must be hard on you having nothing else to do but monitor the dungeon here for what, ten years by now? And still trying to carry that bushwater of 911. and convincing no one the whole fucking time but yourself! you guys are a hoot!

[hack89]

49. I miss the old days - we use to have a lot of fun

I am just looking for something new so we can have discussions like we use to have.

Honest question - is the Truth movement growing, stagnant or shrinking? Is it evolving into a
50 year movement like the JFK assassination?

[William Seger]

40. Yes, they were paint chips

And no, the thermite chips nonsense has not been "merely denied." An independent study found that those flat platelets in Harrit's photos (which a materials scientist had visually identified as Kaolinite, aluminum silicate) were indeed aluminum silicate, along with iron oxide, in an epoxy resin matrix. In other words: paint, just as qualified people had been saying all along. Unlike Harrit, this study actually tested for elemental aluminum -- as any proper scientific testing should have done -- and found none. No elemental aluminum means that no thermitic reaction is possible, period.

You are the one in denial, so maybe some of the rest of your diatribe applies to you as well.

[wildbilln864]

45. again all you have is denial! unless you can link please! n/t

[William Seger]

48. Again?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/9119ProgressReport022912_rev1_030112web.pdf

[hack89]

12. Why wouldn't they have used high explosives?

You keep ignoring that basic question. Why would the use a material never used in a build demolition to do the largest CD in history.

[gyroscope]

14. If they had bothered to look into it instead of trying to cover it up

they might have uncovered the answer to that question.

but I think probably because such tall, massive structures like the twin towers and Building 7 had never been demolished before, and they needed something more powerful than the conventional demolition materials to bring them down. you also want something that makes the least amount of noise and doesn't produce a lot of big explosive flashes (to best hide that it was a CD) -- for which an incendiary thermitic material would be ideal.

[hack89]

15. Large tall buildings are easier

All that weight plus gravity makes it simple. Once you get the top third of the building moving downward nothing will stop the collapse.

And hiding the explosives is even easier. Just cut the core columns where no one can see the explosions.

[gyroscope]

16. You ignored the part about

the tremendous noise and huge explosive flashes that are produced by conventional explosives like RDX.

very tall buildings have much bigger core columns, requiring much more RDX to severe them;
which produces even greater amounts of explosive noise and flashes, making the CD appear very obvious.
if you were trying to mask the CD as much as possible than using very noisy and flashy conventional explosives
would not be ideal for that.

[hack89]

17. So you discount the eye witness accounts of explosions?

You need to get the word out to your fellow Truthers- they think there were lots of explosions.

Muffling the sound is easy - multiple layers of Kevlar cloth. Besides - with all the noise of a massive fire and associated explosive noises it wouldn't be hard to hide the noise of 30 or so cutting charges - they are pretty small.

[gyroscope]

18. Try to pay attention

you can't eliminate the noise and explosive flashes entirely, that would be impossible. but the goal is keep the noise to a minimum. you probably couldn't eliminate the use of RDX entirely, but with thermitic materials you could keep the amount of RDX used to a minimum.

nanothermitic materials have been found in the WTC dust and even in the lungs of the first responders.
that's not a conspiracy theory, its a fact.

[hack89]

19. But we have been told for ten years that explosives were used

Explosions, squibs, pyroclastic flows, accelerating debris were all evidence of explosions. There are thousands of threads here arguing that explosives were used. Now you are telling me they were all lies? You are the first Truther admit that.

[gyroscope]

20. I said no such thing

what I said was some combination of RDX AND thermitic materials was likely used.

pay attention and learn to read!

[hack89]

21. So if they used RDX

They didn't need thermate. 30 or so charges on the core columns was all that was needed. You are weaving such a complex scenario when the simple one works much better.

[gyroscope]

22. What an absurd thing to say

to say controlled demolition is a simple thing to do, that it is simple to make a modern skyscraper implode into its own footprint just proves how ignorant you are. it is certainly not a simple thing to pull off, and is made even more complex when you are trying to hide it as much as possible.

[hack89]

23. Falling in its footprint is the easy part

Gravity works in one direction. Cut the core and the towers collapse straight down. Only cut the core and the perimeter walls are pulled inwards before they break free and collapse straight down.

It is easy not to make it look like CD. You simply don't blow up each floor at the same time.

[gyroscope]

24. But according to the NIST report

you don't have to severe ANY cores or beams. just start one or two random office fires on the upper floors
and the whole thing will come crashing straight down at free-fall speed.


you're saying something very different here. apparently you just proved the official story wrong.

[hack89]

25. I think you actually need to read the NIST report

They assumed significant strucal damage. What would you expect if a 250 ton airplane flying at 500 mph hit a building? You do think a plane actually hit the WTC don't you?

And those fires were not small or random. Only a Truther could look at a smoke plume that was miles high and visible from outer space and say "wow- what a tiny fire." Go look at the Madrid fire that Truthers used to love so much until they figured out that the steel portions actually collapsed due to fire.

[gyroscope]

26. No airplane hit Tower 7

and NIST assumes NO prefire structural failure in the case of Tower 7.
if you read the NIST report, you would know that.

in the case of Towers 1 and 2, an airplane slamming into the 90th floor of a 110 story building would not cause it
to fall symmetrically straight down at freefall speed. That makes absolutely no sense.

maybe if the airplane slammed into the base of the towers then a global total collapse would be more plausible. but even then the buildings would have come down asymmetrically, like a tree, if they were to come down at all. not straight down in the manner of a controlled demolition.

the idea that a CD involves nothing more than severing a few random steel columns and letting gravity do the rest is a gross oversimplification. a proper CD involves precise timing and severing of beams and columns in precise sequence, in the precise locations. if it isn't performed correctly what you get is a tall building that topples over like a tree, not a proper controlled demolition.

[hack89]

27. You want to discount the fire

They were massive. Enough the weaken the steel.

WTC 7 had a shit ton of burning debris fall on it. The FDNY reported a 20 story gouge in its side and numerous unfought fires. They were monitoring a bulge in the side of the building for several hours and knew it was going to collapse.

[gyroscope]

28. "Enough the weaken the steel."

lol sorry but short fires that burned themselves out within an hour are not enough to cause total collapse of a steel-framed skyscraper.

the Windsor Tower in Madrid burned for almost 24 hours straight with flames that engulfed the entire building.
the fires in the twin towers burned themselves out within one to two hours.



South Tower just before collapse (flames aren't even visible,
with only two or three floors burning for less than two hours):





Windsor Hotel is a towering inferno with fires raging on every floor for nearly 24 hours:




and yet it remains standing after the fire is put out:

[nationalize the fed]

30. In post #25, hack calls that a "collapse"

We're supposed to believe it too



there's the Beijing Cultural Centre



Except that didn't "collapse" at all, despite burning for 6 hours

[gyroscope]

32. The Beijing building is still in use today

the fire delayed its opening, but there was no structural damage and it did not have to be torn down.

[hack89]

37. Your first picture shows the concrete core standing while the steel portions collapsed

if you are going to recycle 10 year old arguments it would behoove you to go back and read the actual discussions about them.

As for the Beijing Cultural Centre, I missed the part where a fully laden 767 smashed into it at 500 mph.

Why is it so hard to accept that the WTC were truly unique events - it was the first time in history that high rises suffered severe structural damage due to the planes plus damage from the resulting fires.

[hack89]

33. Windsor had a concrete core. The steel portions collapsed.

Steel weakens at 600 degrees. The WTC fires were massive and hot. They did not burn them selves out - there was a massive smoke plume visible from space.

[AZCat]

36. The claim that the towers should have collapsed like falling trees is ludicrous.

This is another example of laypeople trying to apply wrong-headed analogies to engineering. In this specific example, a tree and the WTC towers are nothing alike. The strength of the internal connections for a tree compared to the loads is orders of magnitude greater than that for the towers. In a collapse those connections will not fail easily in a tree, whereas local failure is to be expected for the towers. Local failure means the towers don't deviate much from a vertical alignment before all the various parts separate and fall down in one big clump.

[gyroscope]

41. Doesn't matter if its a tree or a highrise building

random fires do not cause any kind of tall structure to magically collapse into itself in a symmetrical fashion, period. for a modern high-rise building the core columns have to be knocked out all at once, which requires precision timing and expert planning.

starting a random office fire will not magically cause the core columns of a modern high-rise to fail all at once. such a thing has never happened and never will, except maybe in fantasyland. it's an extremely complex undertaking that involves the expert placement of highly specialized explosive (and/or incendiary) devices at the base of the columns by trained personnel. very specialized equipment and know-how you won't find at your local Home Depot.





.

[zappaman]

42. "random office fire"

Yes, that's what it was.
Just a random office fire.

[gyroscope]

43. Special Magical Fire!

that causes modern high-rise buildings to collapse exactly in the manner of a controlled demolition!
is that what you think it is?


guess what Einstein a fire that takes place in an office building is called a random office fire. amazing I know. what else would it be called? sorry to burst your bubble but a fire is a fire, whether fueled by jet fuel or office furnishings. kerosene does not give fire any super magical properties. the jet fuel was consumed in the blast of the airplane impacts anyways.

[zappaman]

44. Special Magical Fire makes sense!

To go along with the special magical silent explosions!

[gyroscope]

47. You have quite an imagination

I'll give you that.
but unless you are real hard of hearing or deaf, the explosions at the WTC were certainly not 'silent.'


Greg Brady -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) Battalion 6
We were standing underneath and Captain Stone was speaking again. We heard -- I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now, 1 World Trade Center.

We were standing in a circle in the middle of West Street. They were talking about what was going on. At that time, when I heard the 3 loud explosions, I started running west on Vesey Street towards the water. At that time, I couldn't run fast enough. The debris caught up with me, knocked my helmet off.
Interview, , New York Times

Rich Banaciski -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) Ladder 22
We were there I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.
Interview, 12/06/01, New York Times

Brian Becker -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) Engine 28
So I think that the building was really kind of starting to melt. We were -- like, the melt down was beginning. The collapse hadn't begun, but it was not a fire any more up there. It was like -- it was like that -- like smoke explosion on a tremendous scale going on up there.
Interview, 10/09/01, New York Times

...
Timothy Burke -- Firefigter (F.D.N.Y.) Engine 202
Then the building popped, lower than the fire, which I learned was I guess, the aviation fuel fell into the pit, and whatever floor it fell on heated up really bad and that's why it popped at that floor. That's the rumor I heard. But it seemed like I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped. I thought it was an explosion.
Interview, 01/22/02, New York Times

Ed Cachia -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) Engine 53
It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down. With that everybody was just stunned for a second or two, looking at the tower coming down.
Interview, 12/06/05, New York Times

Frank Campagna -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) Ladder 11
There was nobody in the intersection, nobody in the streets in general, everyone just saying come on, keeping coming, keep coming. That's when [the North Tower] went. I looked back. You see three explosions and then the whole thing coming down. I turned my head and everybody was scattering. From there I don't know who was who. I don't even know where my guys went. None of us knew where each other were at at that point in time.
Interview, 12/04/01, New York Times

Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) Ladder 8
I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit.
...
You did hear the explosions [when the North Tower came down]. Of course after the first one -- the first one was pretty much looking at in like in awe. You didn't realize that this was really happening because you kind of just stood there and you didn't react as fast as you thought you were going to. The second one coming down, you knew the explosions. Now you're very familiar with it.
Interview, 01/25/02, New York Times

Jason Charles -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
I grabbed her and the Lieutenant picked her up by the legs and we start walking over slowly to the curb, and then I heard an explosion from up, from up above, and I froze and I was like, oh, s___, I'm dead because I thought the debris was going to hit me in the head and that was it.
Then everybody stops and looks at the building and they they take off. The Lieutenant dropped her legs and ran. The triage center, everybody who was sitting there hurt and, oh, you know, help me, they got up and and everybody together got up and ran. I looked at them like why are they running? I look over my shoulder and I says, oh, s___, and then I turned around and looked up and that's when I saw the tower coming down.
...
North Tower:
We start walking back there and then I heard a ground level explosion and I'm like holy s___, and then you heard that twisting metal wreckage again. Then I said s___ and everybody started running and I started running behind them, and we get to the door.
Interview, 01/23/02, New York Times

Frank Cruthers -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Citywide Tour Commander]
And while I was still in that immediate area, the south tower, 2 World Trade Center, there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.
Interview, 10/31/01, New York Times

James Curran -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
A guy started scremaing to run. When I got underneath the north bridge I looked back and you heard it, I heard like every floor went chu-chu-chu. Looked back and from the pressure everything was getting blown out of the floors before it actually collapsed.
Interview, 12/30/01, New York Times

Kevin Darnowski -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
I started walking back up towards Vesey Street. I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.
Interview, 11/09/01, New York Times

Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8]
After a while we were looking up at the tower, and all of a sudden someone said it's starting to come down.
...
This would be the first one.
...
This one here. It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other.
Interview, 10/12/01, New York Times

Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.)
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Brian Dixon -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
I was watching the fire, watching the people jump and hearing a noise and looking up and seeing -- it actually looked -- the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out. I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out. Then I guess in some sense of time we looked at it and realized, no, actually it just collapsed. That's what blew out the windows, not that there was an explosion there but that windows blew out. The realization hit that it's going to fall down, the top's coming off. I was still thinking -- there was never a thought that this whole thing is coming down. I thought that that blew out and stuff is starting to fly down. The top is going to topple off there.
Interview, 10/25/01, New York Times

Michael Donovan -- Captain (F.D.N.Y.)
Anyway, with that I was listening, and there was an incredibly loud rumbling. I never got to look up. People started running for the entrances to the parking garages. They started running for the entrances. I started running without ever looking up. The roar became tremendous. I fell on the way to the parking garages. Debris was starting to fall all around me. I got up, I got into the parking garages, was knocked down by the percussion. I thought there had been an explosion or a bomb that they had blown up there. The Vista International Hotel was my first impression, that they had blown it up. I never got to see the World Trade Center coming down.
Interview, 11/09/01, New York Times

James Drury -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)
We were in the process of getting some rigs moved when I turned, as I heard a tremendous roar, explosion, and saw that the first of the two towers was starting to come down.
...
When the dust started to settle, I headed back down towards the World Trade Center and I guess I came close to arriving at the corner of Vesey and West again where we started to hear the second roar. That was the north tower now coming down. I should say that people in the street and myself included thought that the roar was so loud that the explosive - bombs were going off inside the building. Obviously we were later proved wrong.
...
The sight of the jumpers was horrible and the turning around and seeing that first tower come down was unbelieveable. The sound it made. As I said I thought the terrorists planted explosives somewhere in the building. That's how loud it was, crackling explosive, a wall. That's about it. Any questions?
Interview, 10/16/01, New York Times

Thomas Fitzpatrick -- Deputy Commissioner for Administration (F.D.N.Y.)
We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing it, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. I assume now that that was either windows starting to collapse like tinsel or something. Then the building started to come down. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV. I would have to say for three or four seconds anyway, maybe longer. I was just watching. It was interesting to watch, but the thing that woke everybody up was the cloud of black material. It reminded me of the 10 commandments when the green clouds come down on the street. The black cloud was coming down faster than the building, so whatever was coming down was going to hit the street and it was pretty far out. You knew it wasn't coming right down. Judging from where people were jumping before that, this cloud was much further.
Interview, 10/16/01, New York Times

Gary Gates -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
I looked up, and the building exploded, the building that we were very close to, which was one tower. The whole top came off like a volcano.
...
So now both towers have been hit by a plane. The north tower was burning. So the explosion, what I realized later, had to be the start of the collapse. It was the way the building appeared to blowout from both sides. I'm looking at the face of it, and all we see is the two sides of the building just blowing out and coming apart like this, as I said, like the top of a volcano.
Interview, 10/12/01, New York Times

Kevin Gorman -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
North Tower:
John Malley, who was right behind me, I turned around for him, because he was doing something, either putting his coat on or something, and as I was looking at him I heard the explosion, looked up, and saw like three floors explode, saw the antenna coming down, and turned around and ran north.
Interview, 01/09/02, New York Times

Stephen Gregory -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)
We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
...
[It was at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw.
...
He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them too.
...
I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like at eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes.
Interview, 10/03/01, New York Times

Gregg Hansson -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
That's basically where we were. Then a large explosion took place. In my estimation that was the tower coming down, but at that time I did not know what that was. I thought some type of bomb had gone off. I was, I believe, ahead of the rest of the firefighters and officers there. I made it to the corner, and I took about four running steps this way when you could feel the rush of the wind coming at you. I believed that that was a huge fireball coming at the time.
Interview, 10/09/01, New York Times

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118]
We came out from 90 West, made a left, headed east, and right when we got to the corner of Washington and Albany, that's when I heard the building collapse.
First I thought it was an explosion. I thought maybe there was bomb on the plane, but delayed type of thing, you know secondary device.
...
You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.
Interview, 12/26/01, New York Times

Art Lakiotes -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Safety Command]
Tower one now comes down. Same thing but this time some of us take off straight down West Street, because we realized later on, subconsciously we wanted to be near buildings. We all thought it was secondary explosives or more planes or whatever.
Interview, 12/03/01, New York Times

John Malley -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
We were walking into darkness. As we walked through those revolving doors, that's when we felt the rumble. I felt the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my mind it was a bomb going off. The pressure got so great, I stepped back behind the columns separating the revolving doors. Then the force just blew past me. It blew past me it seemed for a long time. In my mind I was saying what the hell is this and when is it going to stop? Then it finally stopped, that pressure which I thought was a concussion of an explosion. It turns out it was the down pressure wind of the floors collapsing on top of each other. At that point everything went black, and then the collapse came. It just rained on top of us. Everything came. It rained debris forever.
Interview, 12/12/01, New York Times

Julio Marrero -- E.M.T. (F.D.N.Y.)
I was screaming from the top of my lungs, and I must have been about ten feet away from her and she couldn't even hear me, because the building was so loud, the explosion, that she couldn't even hear me. I just saw everybody running; and she saw us running, and she took off behind us.
Interview, 10/25/01, New York Times

Orlando Martinez -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
There was an explosion and after we started running, I was able to make it to Chambers and West, where I only saw one EMT, EMT Vega. She is new here. She was the only EMT I saw from the station and with all the cops and everybody else running, rescue workers. I grabbed her and I said just stay with me. We will try to get out of here.
Interview, 11/01/01, New York Times

Linda McCarthy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
So when that one went down. I thought the plane was exploding, or another plane hit. I had no idea it was coming down. But I couldn't see it gone, because I couldn't see it really in the first place with all the smoke.
Interview, 11/28/01, New York Times

James McKinley -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
After that I heard this huge explosion, I thought it was a boiler exploding or something. Next thing you know this huge cloud of smoke is coming at us, so we're running. Everyone is, firemen, PD, everyone is running away from the World Trade Center, up Vessey Street. This is North End, we was running around Vessey and around North end to get away from the first smoke.
Interview, 10/12/01, New York Times

Joseph Meola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 91]
As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out.
Interview, 12/11/01, New York Times

Keith Murphy -- (F.D.N.Y.) []
I was standing kind of on the edge of where our elevator bank met the big elevator bank. That was when the - I determined that's when the north tower collapses. We are standing there and the first thing that happened, which I still think is strange to me, the lights went out. Completely pitch black. Since we are in that core little area of the building, there is no natural light. No nothing, I didn't see a thing.
I had heard right before the lights went out, I had heard a distant boom boom boom, sounded like three explosions. I don't know what it was. At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you.
Interview, 12/05/01, New York Times

Kevin Murray -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 18]
When the tower started -- there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down and I looked away and I saw all the windows domino -- you know, dominoeing up and then come down. We were right in front of 6, so we started running and how are you going to outrun the World Trade Center? So we threw our tools and I dove under a rig.
Interview, 10/09/01, New York Times

Janice Olszewski -- Captain (E.M.S.)
I thought more could be happening down there. I didn't know if it was an explosion. I didn't know it was a collapse at that point. I thought it was an explosion or a secondary device, a bomb, the jet -- plane exploding, whatever.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Juan Rios -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
I was in the back waiting, you know, so we could wait for patients and I was hooking up the regulator to the O-2, when I hear people screaming and a loud explosion, and I heard like "sssssssss..." the dust like "sssssssss..." So I come out of the bus, and I look and I see a big cloud of dust and debris coming from the glass...
Interview, 10/10/01, New York Times

Michael Ober -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
Then we heard a rumble, some twisting metal, we looked up in the air, and to be totally honest, at first, I don't know exactly -- but it looked to me just like an explosion. It didn't look like the building was coming down, it looked like just one floor had blown completely outside of it. I was sitting there looking at it. I just never thought they would ever come down, so I didn't think they were coming down. I just froze and stood there looking at it.
Interview, 10/16/01, New York Times

Angel Rivera -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Mike Mullan walked one flight up, and then the most horrendous thing happened. That's when hell came down. It was like a huge, enormous explosion. I still can hear it. Everything shook. Everything went black. The wind rushed, very slowly [sound], all the dust, all the -- and everything went dark.
Interview, 01/22/02, New York Times

Daniel Rivera -- Paramedic (E.M.S.) [Battalion 31]
Then that's when -- I kept on walking close to the south tower, and that's when that building collapsed.
...
It was a frigging noise. At first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear "Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop"? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that. When I heard that frigging noise, that's when I saw the building coming down.
Interview, 10/10/01, New York Times

Kennith Rogers -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Meanwhile we were standing there with about five companies and we were just waiting for our assignment and then there was an explosion in the south tower, which, according to this map, this exposure just blew out the flames. A lot of guys left at that point. I kept watching. Floor after floor after floor. One floor under another after another and when it hit about the fifth floor, I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.
Interview, 12/10/01, New York Times

Patrick Scaringello -- Lieutenant (E.M.S.)
I started to treat patients on my own when I heard the explosion from up above. I looked up, I saw smoke and flame and then I saw the top tower tilt, start to twist and lean.
...
I was assisting in pulling more people out from debris, when I heard the second tower explode. When I tried to evacuate the area, by running up Fulton, got halfway up.
Interview, 10/10/01, New York Times

Mark Steffens -- Division Chief (E.M.S.)
Then there was another it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder, papers, flying everywhere. We sat put there for a few minutes. It kind of dissipated.
...
That's when we heard this massive explosion and I saw this thing rolling towards us. It looked like a fireball and then thick, thick black smoke.
Interview, 10/03/01, New York Times

John Sudnik -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
The best I can remember, we were just operating there, trying to help out and do the best we could. Then we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down. Crazy.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Neil Sweeting -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
You heard a big boom, it was quiet for about ten seconds. Then you could hear another one. Now I realize it was the floors starting to stack on top of each other as they were falling. It was spaced apart in the beginning, but then it got to just a tremendous roar and a rumble that I will never forget.
Interview, 11/01/01, New York Times

Jay Swithers -- Captain (E.M.S.)
At that point I looked back and most of the people who were triaged in that area with the triage tags on them got up and ran. I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.
...
Within a few moments, I regrouped with Bruce Medjuck and I asked him to tell them on the radio to send us MTA buses to get people out. That didn't happen. But one thing that did happen was an ambulance pulled up which was very clean. So I assumed that the vehicle had not been in the - what I thought was an explosion at the time, but was the first collapse.
Interview, 10/30/01, New York Times

David Timothy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
The next thing I knew, you started hearing more explosions. I guess this is when the second tower started coming down.
Interview, 10/25/01, New York Times

Albert Turi -- Deputy Assistant Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
The next thing I heard was Pete say what the f___ is this? And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower, somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out. I later realized that the building had started to collapse already and this was the air being compressed and that is the floor that let go.
Interview, 10/23/01, New York Times

Thomas Turilli -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
The door closed, they went up, and it just seemed a couple of seconds and all of a sudden you just heard it, it almost actually that day sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came and my officer just actually took all of us and just threw us down on the ground and kind of just jumped on top of us, laid on top of us.
...
At that point were were kind of standing on the street and I looked to my left and actually I noticed the tower was down. I didn't even know that it was when we were in there. It just seemed like a huge explosion.
Interview, 01/17/02, New York Times

Stephen Viola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Our guy went in with 13 truck, and he was coming down with the guy from 13 truck to bring the elevator to us, and when he was either going up or coming down the elevator, that's when the south tower collapsed, and it sounded like a bunch of explosions. You heard like loud booms, but I guess it was all just stuff coming down, and then we got covered with rubble and dust, and I thought we'd actually fallen through the floor into like the PATH tubes, because it was so dark you couldn't see anything, and from there it was a little hazy from there on.
Interview, 01/10/02, New York Times

William Wall -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47]
At that time, we heard an explosion. We looked up and the building was coming down right on top of us, so we ran up West Street. We ran a little bit and then we were overtaken by the cloud and we hid behind a white Suburban.
...
Oh, when we came out of the building and we were walking across West Street when we first got out of the building, we're walking across the street and all you heard was like bombs going off above your head. You couldn't see it. It was just cloudy. And we found out later it was the military jets. That was an eerie sound. You couldn't see it and all you heard was like a "boom" and it just kept going. We couldn't see 50 feet above our head because of the dust. So we didn't know if it was bombs going off or whatever, but we didn't want to stay there.
Interview, 12/10/01, New York Times

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/oralhistories/explosions.html

[AZCat]

50. Your post doesn't address my argument at all.

I'll just assume your lack of a relevant response means you're incapable of doing so.

[AZCat]

8. Maybe this was never an issue because there was no evidence of explosives?

Of course that can't be it - what am I thinking? That explanation leaves no room for a shadowy, all-powerful cabal that is intent on covering up evidence of space-based beam weapons. Or holograms. Or micro-nukes.

[gyroscope]

10. Are you a psychic or clairvoyant?

how would you know if you didn't test for it?

[AZCat]

29. Fortunately for incident investigators everywhere...

testing for explosive residue is only part of an investigation. NFPA 921 is good background reading on the subject if you're interested in actually learning something.

[AZCat]

7. Oh boy this is always interesting.

I am constantly amazed at how resilient Tony Szamboti is. He comes up with crap arguments, gets his ass handed to him, and goes quiet for a few months, but then bounces back with a new, revised version of the previous crap argument (but still crap all the same). That takes a special kind of person, I think.

[nationalize the fed]

31. Here's what these posters mean by

"getting his ass handed to him"

There's a reason they don't post links

Tony Szamboti vs. Defenders of the Bush 911 account

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x276234

Tony Szamboti attempts to retain some dignity whilst being attacked by extremely rude posters

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x274729

What's your professional credentials, AZCat? Care to share?

[AZCat]

34. Here on the internet I'm just an anonymous poster.

Too bad for Tony that his arguments don't require refutation by anything other than the application of fundamental physics principles. No sharing of professional credentials is required to manage that.

[AZCat]

35. Oh, and there are many more threads with Tony's participation still on DU2 if people care to look.

He's made himself look foolish many times over the years. The repetition is quite astounding. And this is the guy you're trying to defend - the one who made a horrible hash of his search for jolts because he consistently misunderstood "deceleration", a concept that a degreed mechanical engineer should be quite familiar with.

For those interested in an alternate link with an explanation, go here.