SKEPTIC - The Physics of UFOs

[frogmarch]

An article by Michael K. Gainer about the feasibility of interstellar travel, followed by a rebuttal from Peter Huston:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/13-01-16/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Skepticcom+(Skeptic.com)#feature

snips:

(from the Michael Gainer article)

When UFOs are reported they should be evaluated with the attitude that alien spacecraft cannot exist. This is not closed mindedness. It is facing the reality of the constraints that time, stellar distances, and available energy place on interstellar space travel. We must also face the reality that human travel beyond the limits of the solar system is not possible. Any communication with sentient beings beyond the solar system can only take place through electromagnetic signal transmission and reception, so the SETI searches remain our best bet for contact.

(from the Peter Huston rebuttal)

Gainer’s article is the sort that led to my burn out from skepticism. It contains questionable assumptions at several points and then over-reaches from the logical conclusions to make the point the author wishes. For example: “When UFOs are reported they should be evaluated with the attitude that alien spacecraft cannot exist.” This may be the author’s belief, but, based on what I saw, it is a faith-based belief, not grounded in proven fact. And, as skeptics, isn’t it simply enough to say “When UFOs are reported they should be evaluated with the attitude that none have ever been proven to be alien spacecraft”? We are supposed to be the people who read, question and think—not the ones who blindly repeat assertions that fit our pre-conceived notions.

Interesting reads.

[fadedrose]

1. All of man's established religions...

are based on less evidence or information than there is available about UFO's, yet no one can safely say religion is baloney without risk to life or reputation.

Starting with the bible, where there are numerous accounts, reports from pilots, astronauts, people on the ground in their own homes and yards (Phoenix lights), a couple of presidents who saw them from planes, thousands seeing them fly over in DC in 1950 or so, cave drawings, etc., from every country in the world - but we MUST start with the belief that they don't exist.

The nonbelief started with the government starting a campaign where people who reported seeing them were a few spoons less than a scoop (and some were) but many are reliable. Project Bluebook had so many articles blacked out, I think they said for security reasons, national securtity, blah blah.

It doesn't help when authors who write about them do so only for profit and embellish their accounts with false weird accounts, and the history channel mixing up truth with nonsense doesn't help either.

I never saw one, but I'm a believer.

[Logical]

2. Really? You believe aliens visit earth often? My proof they are not is that.....

now with EVERYONE in the world having a camera phone and video on every building we still have no proof!

Please post the best proof you have of UFOs being aliens. Link or source.

[fadedrose]

3. There is no proof that we know about and

There is no proof that they don't visit.

My intuition tell me they were here before us.

Even a good crook knows how to dismantle a video camera, and the videos people have taken are debunked.

I think when they want to be seen, they will be.

[Logical]

4. "no proof they don't visit"? Really, well hell.....

there is no proof I don't have a cure for cancer.

In cases like this the burden of proof is on the person making the extreme claim.

[fadedrose]

5. If I don't care if you don't believe what I believe

Last edited Thu Jan 17, 2013, 12:16 AM - Edit history (1)

then why is the burden on me to prove to you what I don't care what you believe or don't. I will not accept the burden you generously offer (actually it's not very generous of you because we both know that I don't have proof).

There is no burden. I'm just can't help believing and you can't help thinking I'm hopeless and that's okay. I'm cool with that.

[gtar100]

6. Spill the beans, dude... where's the cure?

Don't be holding out on us now.

[Logical]

7. :-)

[NoMoreWarNow]

15. what kind of "proof" would you accept?

the "proof" argument always seems to be a endless spiral of skepticism. What is wrong with just being open minded and accepting the possibility that this is real?

[Logical]

17. Then what would stop be from believing in everything? Ghosts? ESP? All religions. Etc? n-t

[NoMoreWarNow]

19. up to you to discriminate

but there is a lot of evidence for UFOs/ETs if you do enough reading. And you didn't answer my question.

[Logical]

21. Please provide your BEST case evidence for a UFO. One incident that convinced you they are aliens!

[NoMoreWarNow]

23. there isn't one best, but lots of things

One thing I thought was pretty convincing was Arizona Gov Symington's change of heart about seeing the Phoenix Lights UFO:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fife_Symington

There are so many incidents though, and there is so much disinfo and "debunking" of everything. Some people want to cast doubt on everything. Clearly, there is much at stake in this whole issue, for the governments of the world and the military and the common people. However, I think it's pretty damn silly to think the whole field is nothing but a hoax, and that there is no chance any of these incidents were ET visitors.

[Logical]

27. Cool I will read about it. Believe me, I would 100% welcome UFO proof. I have wanted it since I...

was a kid.

Just don't think it is possible. Nothing found yet. And no real evidence. And no SETI stuff yet.

[NoMoreWarNow]

28. well, it's really an accumulation of evidence that seals it for me

and official investigations are going to be highly censored.

[Quantess]

8. Booo. UFO skeptics are no fun.

You get a kick out of sitting on your high horse and wagging your finger with your self-congratulatory "I'm so smaaart" finger at others who dare to dream. Boring!

Anyway, there are unexplained phenomena that theoretically could be accounted for by some of the more abstract physics theories. I'm more interested in thinking things are possible than being a closed-minded bore who says something is impossible.

[frogmarch]

9. I think it’s possible

there’s an advanced alien civilization somewhere out there that understands the laws of physics better than earthlings do, just as earthlings of today have a better understanding of physics than their predecessors did. But has an alien civilization somewhere managed to break the light barrier by harnessing enough energy to travel faster than the speed of light? Have any alien civilizations been able to create or manipulate wormholes through which to travel vast distances, to the far reaches of the universe? Maybe, but where’s the evidence for either of these imagined possibilities, or for any others that would allow ET to reach Earth? There is none.

I used to think that certain well-publicized UFO sightings – the Rendlesham Forest incident and the Japan Airlines flight 1628 incident, to name two – were convincing enough to qualify as the next best thing to solid evidence for ET visitors, but I no longer do. I’ve read too much about such sightings to be convinced that ETs were involved in any of them.

I don’t scoff at people who believe that some UFOs are, or might possibly be, ET spacecraft. However, I draw the line when it comes to the loonies who think that Queen Elizabeth, Kris Kristofferson, Boxcar Willie, as well as certain other famous people, are actually humanoid reptilians from another planet, or any other such nonsense.

I like thinking about ETs, but on a Do You Believe ETs Are, Or Have Ever Visited Earth? scale of 0 to 10, I’m just a teensy bit above 0. I’m pretty sad about it, because I Want to Believe, but that’s the way it is.

[Quantess]

11. I enjoy a good alien story before bedtime, I really do.

When I was a kid (10 to 12), I occasionally became nervous at the thought that aliens would suddenly land and abduct me... especially when I was out in the country, in a open field... eek! That's where UFOs choose to land, you know...

Unfortunately, I have never seen any UFOs or met any aliens. Some people swear they have seen ghosts, or have experienced other unexplained phenomena, and I'm not going to be the one to say they are crazy or making it up. Who knows? Nobody has all the answers. A lot of things that are now taken for granted were dismissed as impossible by people in the middle ages, or even 50 years ago.

But then again, it could be the power of imagination. I don't know, but I don't think it does any good to say these sorts of things absolutely cannot happen, based on science, because the scientific theories are open to some sorts of things like these.

[frogmarch]

13. That's pretty much my take on it too.

When I was a kid I didn't worry that aliens would abduct me. I worried that aliens would take over my parents' bodies, like in the movie Invaders from Mars. I was 9 when I saw that movie and it scared the bejeebies out of me! I stared suspiciously at my mom and dad a lot, and I didn't really trust my sisters either.

[NoMoreWarNow]

16. why don't you think the Rendlesham forest incident is a good example anymore?

[frogmarch]

18. The two airmen

who were the first to report seeing an object associated with the flashing lights gave conflicting accounts of the incident. One of them, Jim Penniston, who had not mentioned initially that he’d gotten up close and personal with the craft, later said he inspected the craft, touched it, and took pictures of it -photos that he said were later confiscated by the military. The other, John Borroughs, said he and the other men present, including Penniston, threw themselves to the ground when they saw the object, and then watched it rise up through the trees.

The nearby lighthouse has the second brightest beam of any in England, and the beam flashes through the forest in intervals of 5 seconds – the exact intervals in which a voice calling “There it is again!” appears on the original field tape of the incident.

The “landing marks” that Penniston saw were later identified as pine needle-covered digging marks from a rabbit. The “burn marks” on certain trees, which he said had been made by the craft’s landing gear (which he claimed to have inspected), were later identified as axe cuts that foresters had put on trees they planned to chop down.

The low-level radiation supposedly detected at the site was measured on an instrument not intended for measuring background radiation, and the supposed radiation finding is considered meaningless by UK radiation specialists.

All things considered (there’s more info available), the Rendleshem Forest incident sounds hokey to me. The belief factor isn’t enhanced by the fact that Penniston “revealed” under hypnosis that the operators of the craft were time travelers, not aliens. Hoo boy.

[NoMoreWarNow]

20. that's the "standard" debunking

and doesn't explain everything. I also find it hard to believe these guys would not know it was a lighthouse if they worked there, and that no one else ever figured that out until much later.

[frogmarch]

22. An extremely bright fireball

burned up over southern England at 3 a.m., which was exactly when the security guards first reported seeing lights flashing between the trees. They entered the forest and followed the lights until they realized the flashes were coming from the lighthouse. A couple of nights later, Col. Holt said he saw a flashing light coming from the direction of the lighthouse, but he said he couldn’t identify the source of the light. Col. Holt also said he saw hovering lights that twinkled for a long time, and that the brightest one appeared to send down light beams. It just so happened that the position of this bright light coincided with that of Sirius, the brightest start in the sky.

An extremely bright fireball – probably a meteorite – burning up over southern England
Beams from the nearby second brightest lighthouse in England flashing through the trees
Stars

Misidentify some or all of these, add a bit of imagination plus a few out-and-out lies on the part of at least one of the witnesses, and there you have it – the Rendlesham Forest UFO Incident.

What's left to explain? I'm not being a smart-ass. I'd really like to know.

[NoMoreWarNow]

24. because there is way more to the story than just these few points.

Christ-- have you not done any real research on this?

There is tons of stuff on youtube, e.g.

[frogmarch]

26. haha! yes, I have, but OMG

maybe I have missed a YT video or two about it! :-O I'd better by Christ go look! I wouldn't want to miss any "real research" that's been done on the Rendlesham Forest incident.

The video is mostly about Penniston's account of touching the "warm" craft, seeing the symbols inscribed on it, and all the other BS he came out with. Anyone who swallows that hogwash desperately Wants to Believe.

Nick Pope is a Believer. Ufologists adore him.

[NoMoreWarNow]

29. there are some decent documentaries on Youtube on it

it's not all crap. There is a lot written as well.

The point is that the incident was not nearly as simple as you make out. There is the radiation, that even official documents note, for instance.

Why don't you believe Penniston?

[frogmarch]

30. The highest level of

radiation found at the site peaked at the lowest range on the instrument used to measure it. The manufacturers of the monitor said that the readings represented nothing more than background levels and were of little or no significance. Naturally, Nick Pope and other believers disagree and say that the manufacturers – as well as UK’s National Radiation Protection Board, who agree with the manufacturer - don’t know how to make proper readings. This strikes me as funny, especially since Col. Halt, who took the readings, recorded them in his memo as 0 .05 to 0.1 milliroentgens, instead of properly as milliroentgens per hour. Oh, and on the tape recording, the readings are described as "minor clicks of three or four units," and the exact same readings were also recorded half a mile away from the co-called "landing site."

I know the case is complex. That's mostly because of all the conflicting testimony, especially Penniston's. Even other witnesses to the incident have come forward to say he's lying when he says he touched the craft and makes other such claims - claims which, by the way, he hadn't made initially. According to some witnesses, he may have fudged his field notes as well, actually making the notes years after the incident is supposed to have occurred.

I think there's a possibility ET is visiting us, but that doesn't mean I believe every ET/UFO story that makes the rounds. I think a good way to arrive at the truth of the matter is to identify and get rid of the weeds, no matter how appealing they might be.

[NoMoreWarNow]

31. Penniston's story may be exaggerated or false

but overall the UFO at Rendlesham story is highly corroborated and Halt in particular is very convincing. The light house explanation is ludicrous given the multiple descriptions of the event that clearly show it was not just light beaming through trees.

[frogmarch]

32. Enter Skip Buran and Kevin Conde

Here’s a link to the “Justice for the Bentwaters 81st Security Police at Rendlesham Forest 1980” Facebook page belonging to James Penniston and John Burroughs. On the page you’ll see exchanges with Skip Buran, who was shift commander the first night, and Kevin Conde, then a USAF MP at the base.

http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/Buran%20and%20Conde%20Facebook.pdf

Conde had previously said in a BBC interview and in an interview with The Daily Mail that the incident had begun as a hoax.

“There was this one guy at the back gate, and he was known as a bit of a problem – he was always seeing things,” Conde told the Daily Mail. “It always turned out that it was a star or something. So I decided to play a practical joke.

“I drove down the taxiway in my car. I stuck the spotlight on, after sticking red and green lenses on it. I then drove round in circles, in the fog, with the PA loudspeaker going, flashing my lights.

“It wasn’t a UFO, it was a 1979 Plymouth Volare (a standard-issue American police car).”

The Facebook exchanges are well worth reading. You don’t have to have a Fb account to read the exchange. It's a pdf file.

Those who are determined to believe the Rendlesham Forest incident involved ETs (or time travelers) will probably continue to do so, no matter what, so I think I’ve talked myself out here.

[NoMoreWarNow]

37. thanks... I looked that over and found some other stuff on FB

e.g.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rendlesham-Forest-incident/102587376463212?fref=ts#


"Another theory is that the incident was a hoax. The BBC reported that a former US security policeman, Kevin Conde, claimed responsibility for creating strange lights in the forest by driving around in a police vehicle whose lights he had modified. Conde has since withdrawn the claim that he was responsible for the incident. "It is my impression that I pulled my stunt during an exercise. We would not have had an exercise during the Christmas holiday [when the UFO sightings occurred]. That is a strong indication that my stunt is not the source of this specific incident". It remains possible that the coloured lights seen in the forest on the first night of the incident were due to a hoax by a perpetrator who has never come forward."

So much stuff gets put out there for each of these incidents. My bias is that it wasn't simply a hoax because of the complexity of the account and there are always people who come out and say these things were hoaxes or misinterpretations, whatever.

Crop circles is another perfect example of this. And there I have to say I just don't believe it is a couple of guys with strong and a board and measuring tape who create these incredibly symmetrical and complex patterns in crops.

[frogmarch]

38. (8-06-2011) Col. Conrad agrees it may have been a hoax

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/ufo/8685868/Rendlesham-Incident-US-commander-speaks-for-the-first-time-about-the-Suffolk-UFO.html

snips:

Just after Christmas mysterious lights were seen in the sky above nearby Rendelsham Forest, and after a second night of reports from his men, Col Conrad investigated himself.

During the day, he went into the forest himself to a clearing where the lights had been seen and where markings on trees and on the ground had been found, indicating a possible landing by a spacecraft.

Col Conrad said he found them "unremarkable". Nevertheless, he returned to the base and hand picked a team of his best security officers and sent them in the forest that evening to investigate.

Lt Col Halt filed a report of the incident to the Ministry of Defence some days later and has since go on to say the lights he saw were “extraterrestrial in origin” and accuse the US and UK security services of a cover-up. Col Conrad, who had gone home convinced he had seen nothing unusual, has remained silent.

Now he has provided a series of statements about the sightings to Dr David Clarke, a Sheffield Hallam University academic and the UFO adviser to the National Archives - which this week will release some Ministry of Defence files relating to the incident.

"We saw nothing that resembled Lt Col Halt's descriptions either in the sky or on the ground," Col Conrad said.

In a damning indictment of his former deputy, Col Conrad added: "We had people in position to validate Halt's narrative, but none of them could."

He said there was no "hard evidence" of anything suspicious.

The Geiger counter was initially said to have given slightly elevated readings in the clearance, but that these were later found to indicate "normal" levels of background radiation.

Col Conrad is scathing about his former deputy.

"He should be ashamed and embarrassed by his allegation that his country and England both conspired to deceive their citizens over this issue. He knows better," he said.

The former base commander also disputes the subsequent testimony of another serviceman, Sgt Jim Penniston, who had gone into the woods on the first night of the sightings and has since claimed he touched an alien spacecraft.

Col Conrad said he interviewed the officer at the time and that, while he described seeing strange lights which had moved off into the distance, he had not mentioned touching a spacecraft.

Although he cannot explain the subsequent accounts of his subordinates, Col Conrad said he thinks the incident may have been a hoax.

Maybe it began with airmen mistaking the lighthouse beam, stars, the fireball, woodsmen's flashlight beams, or any of a number of natural objects - or a combination of them - for an alien spacecraft, but how can anyone honestly believe that Penniston, and maybe others too, didn't make up stuff to add to it - stuff to turn it into a juicy ETs Have Landed! story?

Crop circles are made by people. No aliens have ever participated. Or have even wanted to.

[NoMoreWarNow]

39. sorry, but you are pushing the idea that it was all a hoax

in a way that makes me suspicious. There is evidence going both ways, yet you seem to want to believe the hoax evidence. Even though obviously the govt wants to cover this stuff up-- no doubt about it.

[frogmarch]

41. aw geez

[NoMoreWarNow]

44. aw, geez, what?

you didn't convince me that Rendlesham is an incredibly elaborate hoax?

[zappaman]

42. "There is evidence going both ways"

[NoMoreWarNow]

43. well, I'm sorry, but there is.

I don't know what is so hard to understand about "cover-up" and disinformation. That's what intelligence agencies do.

[zappaman]

45. Saying "coverup" and "disinformation" is not evidence.

There just isn't any evidence we are being visited.
Sorry.

[NoMoreWarNow]

46. there's no evidence... right....

there's no evidence as long as you discount every eyewitness account as a mistake or a hoax.

But if you give credence to even 0.1% of the UFO accounts as being other worldly, there is plenty of evidence.

[zappaman]

47. Eyewitnesses see UFOs all the time

they can't identify them, hence the designation.
The existence of UFOs does not mean the existence of alien beings visiting our planet...

[NoMoreWarNow]

48. but the accounts are evidence of something very strange

something mysterious, and something that can be explained by ETs. And scientifically, you have to know, there is a very significant probability of there being life on other worlds.

So, it's fine if you want to say there is no proof. But there is a very good probability of there being ETs if you add all the evidence together.

[zappaman]

49. Sure, I agree there is likely life out there somewhere...

But I doubt they trek across light years just to mutilate cattle, or flash their lights in our sky, or abduct us to put things up our ass.

[NoMoreWarNow]

50. I doubt that's all they do... and how the heck can you comprehend what an alien would do anyway?

Clearly, one thing they do is monitor our nuclear weaponry, and likely tamper with it.

[zappaman]

51. "likely tamper with it"?

do you have evidence and examples of this?

[frogmarch]

52. Do you get the feeling that

someone is pulling our leg?

[zappaman]

53. Well, it IS creative... n/t

[NoMoreWarNow]

54. here are some

https://www.google.com/search?q=aliens+tampering+with+nuclear+weaponry&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US fficial&client=firefox-a

I'm guessing you will not find them credible stories, but this is certainly a recurring theme in UFOlogy.

[frogmarch]

55. Lt. Col. Charles Halt of Rendlesham Forest fame

is the star of the articles at your link. We seem to be going in circles here, don’t we? It reminds me of how some people use Bible passages to try to prove that God exists.

Along with Halt, Robert Hastings was also prominently featured in several of the articles. Hastings is another True Believer with no evidence whatsoever to support his claims.

Maybe ETs are visiting Earth, and maybe they’re monitoring and messing with our nuclear weaponry, but until someone provides irrefutable evidence for this, it’ll be nothing more than speculation.

[NoMoreWarNow]

59. there are others-- Salas, for instance

But let's be honest-- I suspect no amount of witnesses, no matter how credible, will convince you.

[frogmarch]

60. Some of the cases are

intriguing, and as unlikely as I think it is that any of the cases involve ETs, I'll concede that it's possible some do. Still, until there's indisputable evidence that extraterrestrials are visiting Earth, I'll remain highly skeptical of any UFO/ET stories.

[NoMoreWarNow]

62. what kind of indisputable evidence do you want?

seriously-- what would convince you?

[frogmarch]

63. Physical evidence such as

an alien, for instance (living or dead), or an alien spacecraft would be nice. Not just pictures. The real thing, with its authenticity verified by real, completely sane scientists of the highest caliber.

If someone were to tell you they'd seen a fire-breathing dragon, would you simply take their word for it, or would you want proof that what they saw, or claimed to have seen, was indeed a fire-breathing dragon? If many other people also claimed to have seen fire-breathing dragons, would you not wonder why there were so many reported sightings of the creatures but no physical evidence for any of them? I would.

[zappaman]

64. Exactly.

Spot on.

[RKP5637]

56. Similar thoughts here too. n/t

[zappaman]

10. I saw a UFO a few hours ago...

It had a AMERICAN AIRLINES logo on it....clever.

[BlueJazz]

12. I MAY have seen the same thing ! Was it silver ?

Did the Aliens...in the back part of the plane...seem to be sitting in seats that were too small for them ??

[NoMoreWarNow]

14. amen!

couldn't agree more

[NoMoreWarNow]

25. btw, this reminds me very much of a book I read on debunking alien abductions

http://www.amazon.com/Abducted-People-Believe-Kidnapped-Aliens/dp/067402401X

Susan Clancy's "Abducted".

The huge hole in the book, was that it started with the basic premise that UFOs didn't exist, so all the stories had to be made up. And then she went about figuring how these people made stuff up.

To be sure, not all abductee stories are real, but to flat out say there is no such thing as UFOs-- especially given the massive literature and documentation out there-- is just terrible science.

[frogmarch]

75. I just now saw your post.

I agree that just because most alien abduction stories have been shown to be false, the door shouldn't be automatically slammed shut on all of them. I don't believe aliens are abducting people, but I think such claims should be investigated on a case-by-case basis, not lumped together and dismissed out of hand.

I wonder if some if not all of the "abductions" that aren't hoaxes are related to sleep paralysis. In an episode I once had, Jesus appeared at my bedside and attempted to cut out my brain. I knew it wasn't real, because I'm an atheist and consider Jesus a myth. (I suppose that's why "he" wanted to get rid of my brain.)

Anyway, since I think it's possible that intelligent ETs exist somewhere out there, maybe if in a sleep paralysis episode I thought I was being abducted by ETs, I'd believe it. Wait, no I wouldn't. I'd realize it was sleep paralysis.

[NoMoreWarNow]

76. Clancy's thesis was that the abductions were sleep paralysis

and that may explain some or most or maybe even all of the stories. I just thought she was unreasonable in automatically discounting that aliens would abduct people.

I'm not sure what you are saying in your last line. Is that sarcasm?

[frogmarch]

78. No, not sarcasm.

I meant it. I do believe it’s possible that intelligent ETs exist somewhere, and because I do, if I hadn’t had an episode of sleep paralysis in which Jesus, whom I don’t believe in, appeared at my bedside, I might consider as real an episode in which aliens, whom I believe might actually exist, abduct me. Sleep paralysis hallucinations seem very real.

[AtheistCrusader]

80. The author acknowledges the 'huge hole' right off the bat, so it's not really

a 'hole' at all. Besides the book isn't really about 'abductions' at all, it's about the glaring fallibility of human perception and memory and how that plays into credulity, delusion, things like that. If you haven't figured that out, keep reading.

Saying there 'is no such thing as UFO's' probably is 'terrible science', because for something to meet that bar is pretty easy. Couple rival countries dinking around with experimental aircraft and atmospheric phenomenon can account for probably most of that. Unidentified Flying Objects from extra-terrestrial sources visiting the earth on the other hand...

[NoMoreWarNow]

81. I don't remember the author acknowledging anything like that

I think the funny part is she kind of took over in the field from John Mack, at Harvard, who actually believed there were alien abductions. Kind of a cover-up, imo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edward_Mack


Curious what you think about the Walton case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Walton

[AtheistCrusader]

82. It's in the first chapter, IIRC.

It's also one of the first thing she discusses when speaking publicly about the book. We have a 'visiting speaker' series where I work, and get CEO's, authors, artists, politicians, visiting from time to time. I enjoyed her lecture a lot, and that was one of the very first things she discussed. All of her work starts with the assumption that no aliens are visiting the earth, at least not in the manner claimed by abduction 'victims', and that the people claiming abduction aren't necessarily crazy, nor intentionally lying. (Edit: or rather I should say, she came to find that her assumption they were crazy wasn't accurate)

Walton's article is hilarious. I've never seen such widespread [citation needed] through an article. Of course, I do not believe a word of that account. I don't even find the idea of 'suppressed memories' credible, let alone 'guided hypnosis' to 'recover' them, rather than 'construct' them.

I have witnessed some pretty awful shit, and I have seen other people witness the same, and experience it to a degree, and not a single person I have ever met has been unable to recollect any of those events. Certainly experiences FAR worse than the horseshit abduction stories 'recovered' by hypnotherapists. Most of them are ridiculously benign, far less terrifying than even a criminal abduction of a human by a human for a variety of horrific purposes. I've seen people unwilling to discuss an event, unwilling to revisit or dwell on it, or even think about it, but NEVER have I met one that COULD NOT recall it.

The idea of hypnotherapy recovering these 'traumatic' 'suppressed' memories flies in the face of even the general concept of hypnosis, as widely understood by most people. Most if not all 'professionals' in the field insist you cannot compel someone to do something in a suggestive state, that they wouldn't otherwise do. If that's the case, how in the hell are they able to guide the person to 'recover' a memory their mind found so horrific it had to 'suppress' it? That makes precisely zero logical sense.

[NoMoreWarNow]

83. you seem to have left out a key word

"I've never seen such widespread through an article."
???

Also, I have no idea what you are talking about with Walton not being able to recall his experience, since was in fact, able to recall the whole thing. Without hypnosis.

Your take on this seems bizarre to me.

[AtheistCrusader]

84. I didn't leave it out.

Apparently the forum software that drives DU has a problem with square brackets. I typed I "Citation Required" in square brackets as you can see scattershot through the article, practically on every single paragraph of the account of the abduction.

As to my comment on hypnotherapy, I brought it up because Walton just COINCIDENTALLY went to a hypnotherapist for a 'confidential medical exam' before talking to the police and offered to undergo hypnosis to prove the account he was telling. Shocking. False memories/guided memory recovery is a major component of Clancy's book, if you read it.

[NoMoreWarNow]

85. square brackets are used for the HTML code here

and in any case, the phrase was gone and your sentence was confusing.

Overall, like most of these cases, there are plenty of oddities in the story. But overall, I tend to believe something unusual happened and his story was not a simple hoax.

[ti66er8pooh]

33. I've always wondered....

I've always wondered why we, as humans, automatically assume that an "invader" or "scout" from an intelligent civilization would want to be seen? I mean, assuming traveling the distance of light years is possible, and an advanced civilization has harnessed the technology to do so, why would they show up with bright flashy lights and vehicles that are made of reflective - metallic materials?

I'm sure they also possess stealth technology, probably advanced enough to be cloaking technology. Why wouldn't they utilize it? Why do we assume that they want to be seen? Why do we assume that they aren't watching us..without the ability for us to know they are here? If I traveled that far, and knew what I know about humanity on earth, I damn sure would stay hidden.

[frogmarch]

34. Ah, yes, the lights!

Good points!

I’ve always wondered why ETs who’ve mastered the ability to travel vast distances through space would need lights on their crafts (surely they wouldn’t need lights to help them navigate), and given the apparent shyness of ETs, why they’d want lights – especially blinking and/or multi-colored - that would draw attention to themselves. If the lights often reported in UFO sightings have no purpose and are merely effects of the crafts’ operation, why haven’t these smarty-pants ETs worked that bug out?

The only logical explanation I see for the lights and shiny metal on these crafts is wild ‘n’ crazy alien teenagers out on joy rides in their flashy, souped-up vehicles having a little fun with planet Earth.

[zappaman]

35. Now that makes sense!

Those alien teenagers are probably drunk on some alien jagermeister and that's why they're fucking with cattle and...well...the whole anal probe thing...

[frogmarch]

36. Yep.

[NoMoreWarNow]

40. hahahahaha!

so funny.

Not really.

[RKP5637]

57. I don't have the link now, but I have read speculation they could be a billion years or so more

advanced than us. In the big picture, we are not advanced at all, not at all, we're still trying to make it into the stone age if that. For a simple example, in the 30's about half of America didn't even have indoor plumbing. Our current technology is akin to crystal radio sets if even that advanced.

Also, I really doubt an advanced civilization would have any interest in this spinning ball of dirt at all. We have over inflated egos. Also, we use the trappings of our limited science ... if a truly advanced civilization visited this remote outpost, we likely could not even comprehend them. Much as you said, we would not even know they were here.

What is always amusing is when some think they would use some form of transportation means akin to ours ... They would likely use folded space ... and in fact, we well might be within multiple dimensions. ... and, we probably do not have in essence the vaguest idea of their technology.

The world is far more complicated than DU!

[Amonester]

65. The thing is, we assume we are a remote post, because we don't know how they do it

but, in their reality, we could be just like "next door" to their red dwarf system(s).

I saw two UFOs in my life so far: one in '74, and the other only some 18 months ago.

[RKP5637]

66. Yep!!! Quite true!!! n/t

[Amonester]

67. When I was in my teens (late sixties...) I remember seeing a movie :)

about the pilots (who later became astronauts) strugling while trying to "break the SOUND barrier" and many thought in it that it wasn't possible to go faster than that speed!

Now each time a poster comes up with 'it's impossible to travel faster than lightspeeds" in a post, it reminds me of these scenes!

[RKP5637]

68. It will happen, just a matter of time, so to say, LOL.

[Amonester]

69. It would happen if this 'agressive' species of ours would learn something from History...

But since it won't, and I mean, EVER, this poor planet is doomed, or rather, this depressing species (and too many others its casualties) will run out of time in less than a century or two.

[RKP5637]

70. I've often told people, and I've been very serious, only intergalactic intervention

will probably save earth. Enough people with power/$$$$$ just can't seem to wrap their minds around WTF is going on. Too many live in their own selfish greedy little circles rather than looking at the big picture. If not a cosmic event, earth will probably be wiped out by a virus or some insane weaponry of war. Perhaps a subset will remain, those with a scientific orientation might well escape/survive. ... but I think the masses are doomed unless the current paradigm is drastically changed.

PS: I was the eternal optimist until some years ago, about 2000, when I got out of my ivy tower and realized how truly F'ed up and uneducated some people are.

[Amonester]

71. I have big doubts any of these 'visitors' will ever intervene.

Some of them seem to have already spotted how much 'nuclear' their 'intervention' would be 'welcomed' by the PTB... I mean, the 1% of pure greedy and ignorant, power-grabbing corrupt a-holes themselves.

I am pretty sure they've already scratched doing that on their priorities lists...

[RKP5637]

72. Probably right! In the big scheme of things, why worry about a spinning ball of dirt with

a bunch of savages running around.

[BobbyBoring]

58. I saw one in 1973 so I believe.

I wasn't alone either and the 2 other guys with me remember it like it was yesterday. We were on top of a barn and suddenly noticed this light off in the distance. It would change colors from white to red. It would hover for a while and then shoot across the horizon at an unbelievable speed and then stop and hover again. It kept doing this for hours until it just vanished. There are no aircraft that can move at the speed this thing was going now, much less in 1973.

[frogmarch]

61. I can understand

anyone seeing something like that being perplexed and thinking it could be an alien craft. Years ago when I lived rural Wyoming I used to sit on the front porch and watch mysterious lights in the sky dance around, as if playing tag with one another, at a distance that I guessed to be about five miles from my house. Night after night for several weeks one summer I watched the lights - sometimes there were two, sometimes as many as six or seven. I wondered what they were....UFOs? They moved in every direction, and sometimes they hovered. When I learned there was an old uranium mine about that distance from my house, I realized the mystery was probably solved. Even in an inert state, and at room temperature, finely sliced uranium or thinly divided uranium powder can spontaneously combust and glow. That’s what I think my UFOs were – pyrophoric uranium particles.

I’ve seen stars appear to move around. Certain atmospheric conditions can cause this illusion.

I have no idea what the strange light you saw could have been.

[zappaman]

73. James Fox to Announce $100,000 UFO Reward for Proof of an ET Spacecraft

I'm sure this will be collected quickly!

Filmmaker James Fox will make this announcement as part of the promotion for his upcoming movie The 701, inspired by the Air Force's two-decade UFO study, Project Blue Book.

The massive study into 12,618 UFO sightings, which ended in 1969, was able to explain away all but 701 of these sightings.

Fox, who previously directed Out of the Blue (2002) and I Know What I Saw (2009), will reveal the $100K challenge at the 22nd International UFO Congress (IUFOC), which begins Feb. 27, in Fountain Hills, Ariz.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alejandro-rojas/international-ufo-congress_b_2736460.html

[frogmarch]

74. The “best proof”

can be a photo, video or film footage of a supposed alien craft, or debris from an alien craft crash site.

I’d demand an alien - well, unless I was promoting a movie about them, like James Fox is. Then I'd accept the "best proof" too.

[NoMoreWarNow]

77. if we assume the govt is covering up evidence of aliens in the name of national security

you can imagine how hard it would be to present an actual ET as proof.

[frogmarch]

79. I don't think the government is

covering up evidence of aliens, but if they are, if I ever found one, I'd document it and blab it far and wide before the G-men could do a thing about it. Bet I'm not alone, either.

[razee]

86. The Anchorage Incident - John Callahan Testimony

If anyone is interested this is an excerpt from a new movie coming out soon.

Published on Mar 3, 2013
For 6 years, Mr. Callahan was the Division Chief of the Accidents and Investigations Branch of the FAA in Washington, DC. In his testimony he tells about a 1986 Japanese Airlines 747 flight that was followed by a UFO for 31 minutes over the Alaskan skies. Mr. Callahan was able to secure video tape and audio evidence of the event.

&feature=em-uploademail

[frogmarch]

87. Interesting! Thanks for posting it.

It's a fascinating case. However, no one in the other two airplanes, the ones that approached the Japan Airlines flight to look for the object, saw it (although by then the JAL pilot and crew reported that they had lost sight of it). No one else saw it either, except on radar.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Air_Lines_flight_1628_incident

After a three month investigation, the FAA formally released their results at a press conference held on March 5, 1987. Here Paul Steucke retracted earlier FAA suggestions that their controllers confirmed a UFO,[12] and ascribed it to a "split radar image" which appeared with unfortunate timing. He clarified that "the FAA [did] not have enough material to confirm that something was there", and though they were "accepting the descriptions by the crew" they were "unable to support what they saw".[11] The McGrath incident was revealed here amongst the ample set of documents supplied to the journalists.

The sighting received special attention from the media,[16] as a supposed instance of the tracking of UFOs on both ground[12] and airborne radar, while being observed by experienced airline pilots, with subsequent confirmation by an FAA Division Chief.

Yesterday I was reading about WWII pilots who flew the Hump (over the Himalayas to China) and learned that Barry Goldwater had been a Hump pilot. I googled him and found in a Wiki article about him that he was interested in UFOs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_goldwater

Goldwater was one of the more prominent American politicians to openly show an interest in UFOs.

On March 28, 1975, Goldwater wrote to Shlomo Arnon: "The subject of UFOs has interested me for some long time. About ten or twelve years ago I made an effort to find out what was in the building at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base where the information has been stored that has been collected by the Air Force, and I was understandably denied this request. It is still classified above Top Secret."[77] Goldwater further wrote that there were rumors the evidence would be released, and that he was "just as anxious to see this material as you are, and I hope we will not have to wait much longer."[77]

The April 25, 1988, issue of The New Yorker carried an interview where Goldwater said he repeatedly asked his friend, Gen. Curtis LeMay, if there was any truth to the rumors that UFO evidence was stored in a secret room at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and if he (Goldwater) might have access to the room. According to Goldwater, an angry LeMay gave him "holy hell" and said, "Not only can't you get into it but don't you ever mention it to me again."[78]

In a 1988 interview on Larry King's radio show, Goldwater was asked if he thought the U.S. Government was withholding UFO evidence; he replied "Yes, I do." He added: “I certainly believe in aliens in space. They may not look like us, but I have very strong feelings that they have advanced beyond our mental capabilities....I think some highly secret government UFO investigations are going on that we don't know about – and probably never will unless the Air Force discloses them.[79]

I wonder if Goldwater saw a UFO when he was a pilot and that was why he was interested in them.

[shrug] I am far from convinced that ETs are visiting Earth, but the topic of UFOs still intrigues me. Alien crafts, if they exist, are material objects, so I’ve never understood why the topic of UFOs would be placed in the same category with ghosts and other supernatural stuff.

[razee]

88. Back in the 80's I saw this one

Along with the whole neighborhood in the Westchester NY area. It was huge and was moving slowly. Low rumbling vibration as it passed over. The thing was much larger than any man made craft that I'm aware of. I even chased it with my car for about a mile until I lost it. I also saw the hoax hang glider pilots that were trying to discredit the whole thing. They were not even close to the real thing. I have no idea what it was.

[frogmarch]

89. Cool! I'd love to see

something like that.

I wonder what it was. Interesting that it made a low rumbling noise. Hang gliders don't, as far as I know.