Genocide? The Land is ours? Data.

[elias7]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Lithos (a host of the Israel/Palestine group).

Change in Palestinian region population from 1880 through 1947 and from 1947 through the present day. I am unable to upload the graphs I have made, so no visuals, but readable nonetheless. I think it would be helpful to stop using the term genocide which is triggering for Jews and not meeting any definition that I can find for true genocide. 20,000 people, in my opinion, this 20,000 too many, and although does represent 2.5% of the population, which is huge, is not genocide all numbers. Nor, is there genocide or intent which is the main point. Through the years, there is clearly no support in the data for the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or group with the aim of destroying that nation or group of people, unless we are defining the attempt to eliminate Hamas as genocidal.

Of significance, the first set shows a large increase in Arab population starting with the British mandate as land started becoming more developed between 1918 and 1947, which does raise the question as to how many Arabs are truly "indigenous to the area" and the repeated claims of "the land is ours". It would seem that both the Jewish and Arab population grew by 500,000 during this period of time, and I would submit that both groups of immigrants have the same claim of presence on the land.

My data is not formatting well as you can see.

------------ Jewish pop-----Arab pop
1890 ----- 43,000 ----- 432,000
1914 ----- 94,000 ----- 525,000
1922 ----- 84,000 ----- 589,000
1931 ----- 175,000 ---- 760,000
1947 ----- 630,000 -- 1,181,000


The second group shows a paradoxical case of reverse genocide that Israel has committed since 1967 as shown by the markedly increasing population of Arabs in the Palestinian region. I would note that the growth between 1947 and 1967 when Gaza and the West Bank were administered to by Egypt and Jordan respectively has a lower slope than the rapid growth since Israel has overseen these lands. Note that these numbers include 2 million Palestinians living peacefully and non-genocidally in Israel and 670,000 jews living less peacefully in the West Bank.

--------Jewish Pop ---------- Arab pop
1947 -------630,000 ------ 1,181,000
1967 ----- 2,385,100 ----- 1,583,600
2005 ----- 5,563,800 ----- 3,943,000
2023 ----- 7,851,000 ----- 6,043,200

[David__77]

1. "Demographic threat"

From Wikipedia:

In the 1950s, Shoham Melamad found that the high fertility rate of Arabs was viewed as a demographic threat to the Jewish nation.[15] Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, however, stated that Arabs in Israel should be treated equally to any other Israeli citizens and be allowed to have children just like any other citizen.[16] A 1967 Maariv editorial suggested that Jews should be encouraged to have large families, while Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and in Israel should be encouraged to adopt birth control measures. Schnitzer also advocated for the adoption of an open policy encouraging Arabs to emigrate from Israel.[17]

In 2003, Benjamin Netanyahu opined that if the percentage of Arab citizens of Israel rises above its current level of about 20 percent, Israel would not be able to retain a Jewish demographic majority, the basis of Israel's self-definition as a "Jewish democratic state". Netanyahu's comments were criticized as racist by Arab Knesset members and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel.[18][19] In May 2009, Michael Oren wrote an article in Commentary in which he discussed the "Arab Demographic Threat" as one of "Seven Existential Threats" facing Israel.[20] In 2005, Shimon Peres told US officials that Israel had "lost" land in the Negev "to the Bedouin" and would need to take steps to "relieve" the "demographic threat". In 2010, Netanyahu warned in a government meeting that a Negev "without a Jewish majority" would pose "a palpable threat".[21] In February 2014, then Israeli finance minister Yair Lapid said failure to establish a Palestinian state would leave Israel facing a demographic threat that could undermine its Jewish and democratic nature.[22]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_threat

[Beastly Boy]

3. Presumably, this designation would apply equally to Israel as it would,

Last edited Fri Dec 22, 2023, 02:48 PM - Edit history (1)

if not more so, to the three Arab countries that actually kicked the Palestinians out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_exodus_from_Kuwait_(1990%E2%80%9391)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

[dutch777]

2. Interesting history. Thank you. I keep wondering if looking more forward than backward would not be better.

Historical perspective is valuable. It lets us know where peoples and the basis of current issues came from. And I am no expert on the mid east. But looking at it as land without borders for a moment intrigues me. Seems there is a ALOT of raw land. I know, all desert and rocks and not enough water and lots that is inhospitable, today. The Israelis have done a remarkable job of taking some very marginal lands and making them more productive and hospitable. And I wonder if we could ignore borders in a thought exercise, look at all the land, understand how good our agricultural and other technologies are that could make more of it hospitable and see if in the region-- Israel, Lebanon, Gaza, Egypt, Jordan and maybe Syria-- could not support a different distribution of land use and peoples ( and yes, borders) that protects Israel and provides for a free and sustainable Palestinian homeland. And maybe a more peaceful future. Maybe we can never let go of history and move on, but in this situation I don't see how continuing an endlessly more violent cycle of violence and hatred shows any hope. I think in this age we can do better as a human race.

[elias7]

4. Agreed about looking forward; Israel is not going anywhere, but...

I think people are getting indoctrinated by terms like genocide and ethnic cleansing which are so thoroughly not appropriate for the situation. I think Palestinians claiming over and over that it is "their land" is so inaccurate. I do not think it is appreciated how arable the land has become under Jewish control.

In looking forward is an interesting concept, as I do not see any Arab country in this area with a stable government, so why would we expect anything different. We can hope and help, but they just need to stop taking that Israel is going somewhere. They would be happy to work together, but will slam very hard back whenever attacked, as we see over and over. It is about survival, not public opinion. And if the US stop sending money, I do not think that will change much.

[Lithos]

5. Locking

Not based on a recent news or op-ed.

Lithos