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Mosby

(17,383 posts)
Sat Feb 18, 2023, 10:30 AM Feb 2023

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (Mosby) on Fri Feb 24, 2023, 02:13 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Original Post) Mosby Feb 2023 OP
A curious perspective Beastly Boy Feb 2023 #1
Is he wrong though? Mosby Feb 2023 #2
He is wrong to say the two state solution is dead, or that Beastly Boy Feb 2023 #3
As long as he is alive sabbat hunter Feb 2023 #5
Ive never heard of Israeli Feb 2023 #9
A curious choice of an article to begin with. Beastly Boy Feb 2023 #11
It's not exactly news that most Palestinians Mosby Feb 2023 #14
I don't see much practicality expressed in the article. Beastly Boy Feb 2023 #15
If the two state solution is dead sabbat hunter Feb 2023 #4
That's obviously not going to happen. Mosby Feb 2023 #6
in a one state sabbat hunter Feb 2023 #7
I have a very hard time staying positive. Mosby Feb 2023 #8
You dont have a clue Israeli Feb 2023 #12
I'm pretty familiar with the Israeli political system Mosby Feb 2023 #13
I wasnt referring to our politics Israeli Feb 2023 #17
The really sad part is sabbat hunter Feb 2023 #19
nor will you Israeli Feb 2023 #20
What has happened sabbat hunter Feb 2023 #21
It really is curious Mosby Feb 2023 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author sabbat hunter Feb 2023 #22
Dream on ...nt. Israeli Feb 2023 #10
I do not sabbat hunter Feb 2023 #16
Apologies Israeli Feb 2023 #18

Beastly Boy

(11,090 posts)
1. A curious perspective
Sat Feb 18, 2023, 11:39 AM
Feb 2023

Yisrael M. Eliashiv, the author of the article, is a Rabbi who appears to have Zionist leanings ( just for reference, there are religious Jews in Israel who are anti-Zionist), whose political affiliation is unknown. Based on these snippets of data, it is likely that he is affiliated in some way with a religious Zionist movement within Israel, a tiny segment of Israel's Jewish population. Even within this movement, there is no indication that his personal views expressed in the article represent a prevailing consensus.

Not surprising then that the data he cites in the article, while accurately quoted from the source (https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928), is hardly conclusive given the scope of the study. One general theme that is detectable throughout the study suggests that the more religious the sample of participants is, the less support they show for a two state solution. This applies to both Israelis and Palestinians, but is especially true for Israeli Arabs. So it is not surprising that a religious Jew would have a predictably particular opinion on the two state solution.

Mr. Eliashiv's views are indeed curious, but I can't help but quote Mark Twain in response to them: "I can understand perfectly how the report of my illness got about, I have even heard on good authority that I was dead... The report of my death was an exaggeration."

Mosby

(17,383 posts)
2. Is he wrong though?
Sat Feb 18, 2023, 01:14 PM
Feb 2023

I could provide a dozen more reasons why the conflict won't be resolved anytime soon. The Palestinians have no elected leaders with whom to negotiate with. Even if you expelled every Jew in the WB where do they live? The Palestinians will never agree to a demilitarized country. The Jews in Hebron will not leave the WB. I could keep going. What's necessary at this point is creative solutions, and help from Israel's neighbors (which is unlikely). The UN and SC needs to deal with this ridiculous "refugee" issue. The Palestinians need to end "pay for slay" and brainwashing children.

Beastly Boy

(11,090 posts)
3. He is wrong to say the two state solution is dead, or that
Sat Feb 18, 2023, 01:31 PM
Feb 2023

the study he is citing indicates it is dead. And while there are dozens of reasons why the conflict will not end any time soon, it is not equal to the death certificate for a two state solution.

The Sinai Peninsula was returned to Egypt under Menachem Begin, the Oslo Accord was signed by Yassir Arafat, Gaza was given to the Palestinians under Ariel Sharon. Things change fast in the Middle East.


sabbat hunter

(6,891 posts)
5. As long as he is alive
Sat Feb 18, 2023, 11:59 PM
Feb 2023

Abbas will never allow a new election. But he is 87. reportedly in poor health. He cannot live forever.

He has hallowed out all institutions of the PA, probably has stolen hundreds of millions of dollars in aid, just like Arafat did. When Abbas does die, there will be a huge power struggle in the PA controlled areas.
The UN better be ready to pour in peacemaker troops, and a lot of monetary aid. If Israel is forced to intervene to try and keep the peace in PA controlled areas, it will be a disaster IMHO.

Israeli

(4,289 posts)
9. Ive never heard of
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 02:05 PM
Feb 2023

Rabbi Yisrael M. Eliashiv ......is he American ?

The majority of religious Israelis are right wing Beastly Boy.

There are a small minority of religious left wing , you can read about them here :

https://www.972mag.com/religious-jewish-left-israel/

The best known left wing religious activists are Rabbis for Human Rights :

https://www.rhr.org.il/eng#:~:text=Rabbis%20for%20Human%20Rights%20%28RHR%29%20is%20an%20Israeli,contraventions%20of%20human%20rights%20taking%20place%20in%20







Beastly Boy

(11,090 posts)
11. A curious choice of an article to begin with.
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 02:21 PM
Feb 2023

Not sure who he is either, and just guessing that he represents the views of a tiny minority, if not just his own views. And he is overly selective in quoting the study his conclusions are based on.

Mosby

(17,383 posts)
14. It's not exactly news that most Palestinians
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 03:23 PM
Feb 2023

Don't support the western conceptualization of the 2ss.

I think the gist of this piece is that solutions to the IP conflict need to be practical and focus on changing attitudes and behavior, particularly with the Palestinians. The old idealistic solutions have failed to produce results, and have actually made the situation worse.

Beastly Boy

(11,090 posts)
15. I don't see much practicality expressed in the article.
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 04:37 PM
Feb 2023

The author fails to make his point. While his call to abandon the two state solution is categorical, the argument for it is weak. It is certainly not supported by the study he is quoting from.

For example, his conclusion that "It is clear that the overwhelming fixation of the majority of Arabs...is for the disappearance of Israel" does not hold water. He claims, citing the study, that it is based on "the facts on the ground", but in fact, it's quite the contrary: the study shows between 30 and 35% support for one non-democratic state, both among the Palestinians and the Israelis. This alone puts the author's grasp of the facts on the ground in question. And there are several similar examples that contradict the author's conclusion.

Other than calling for drastic societal changes, without enumerating them or proposing any plans to achieve them, there is nothing in the article that offers an alternative to the two state solution. The article is clear about the failure of what you call "old idealistic solutions", but it doesn't offer anything resembling new non-idealistic ones.

sabbat hunter

(6,891 posts)
4. If the two state solution is dead
Sat Feb 18, 2023, 11:52 PM
Feb 2023

then Israel needs to immediately grant Israeli citizenship to everyone living in the WB, who isn't already a citizen.

Mosby

(17,383 posts)
6. That's obviously not going to happen.
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 10:54 AM
Feb 2023

sabbat hunter

(6,891 posts)
7. in a one state
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 11:46 AM
Feb 2023

solution, what do you do with all the Palestinians that are not citizens? If they do not have equal rights to Israeli citizens, then Israel truly would be an apartheid state.

You simply cannot have a one state solution without equal rights for all.

Note: I do not believe that a one state solution is the answer. The true answer is a two state solution, with Palestine on most of the west bank with the exception of Jerusalem. The religious sites would stay status quo.

Any Israeli Jews living in the WB would be free to stay there, as citizens of Palestine, with full equal rights. Or to come back within Israel proper, with compensation for property lost.

Mosby

(17,383 posts)
8. I have a very hard time staying positive.
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 01:21 PM
Feb 2023

Because everything I see happening is making the situation worse. Both sides continue to be radicalized. The world media, Arab street and the UN are obsessed with Israel and Zionism. Antisemitism is spiking worldwide. Jewish students are being threatened at colleges here and in Europe.

The path to 2SS isn't going to come from a hail Mary attempt at a peace deal. It has to be done in stages starting with changes to Palestinian society. You mentioned that in your vision of a 2ss settlers would be given an option to stay and become citizens. I agree with that, but it can't happen because Israeli Jews have no physical safety in the WB. Recently an Israeli was in a car crash, he was taken to a hospital in Ramallah I think. Members of IJ went to the hospital, took him off life support, letting him die, and then contacted Israel for a prisoner swap. Last week an a Jewish Israeli took a wrong turn and ended up in the WB. A mob formed and attacked his vehicle, he fortunately was able to escape.

This isn't a population that's ready to accept the existence of Israel or Jewish self-determination. Quite the opposite in fact, with the full support of the Muslim world. The world just makes excuses for them all the while holding Israel responsible/accountable for pretty much everything.

Maybe democracy in Israel will fail. What then? Will that make peace more likely? Of course not. Will Israel still exist? Of course it will, and they will be ruled by a strongman just like every other country in the region.

Israeli

(4,289 posts)
12. You dont have a clue
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 02:37 PM
Feb 2023

as to whats happening here Mosby .

You are living in your american bubble that blames the Palestinians for everything
and we have done no wrong .

"and they will be ruled by a strongman just like every other country in the region."


Thats a giveaway ........just like your sig was that has ceased to exist





Mosby

(17,383 posts)
13. I'm pretty familiar with the Israeli political system
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 03:03 PM
Feb 2023

Last edited Sun Feb 19, 2023, 03:52 PM - Edit history (1)

As you know. I don't find it a particularly effective form of governance. The system allows minority groups like the russians and religious to gain control of the process and exert undo influence on the countries politics. There is too much crossover between the legislative branch and the executive. If the judicial reforms Bibi is proposing passes, he and his coalition will have control of all three branches of government. The next step will involve extending the length of the PM term, right out of putins playbook.






Israeli

(4,289 posts)
17. I wasnt referring to our politics
Mon Feb 20, 2023, 03:12 AM
Feb 2023

but to this :

https://www.972mag.com/radicalization-israeli-elites/

Influential sectors of the Israeli public are in a state of panic — and for good reason. The dominant narrative among virtually all Israelis who do not support Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is that a coup is underway. Justice Minister Yariv Levin’s plans for judicial overhaul, which will give unchecked power to the government at the expense of the Supreme Court, do indeed represent a drastic change in the Israeli regime. People who see Israel as a liberal democracy (very often by omitting millions of Palestinians) say the country is on the verge of becoming a dictatorship. The general feeling is that Israel as we know it is on the brink of collapse.

Some are calling this moment the end of democracy. Others, more precisely, describe it as a deterioration into fascism. Most of the hundreds of thousands of protesters taking to the streets are focusing on Levin’s reforms, while left-wing Israelis and the Palestinians cannot but point to the intensification of the occupation’s violence under National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir, and the escalating oppression toward Palestinian citizens. Irrespective of precise political orientation, there is a general sense of emergency.

This collective panic is widespread but is especially potent among the upper classes – both upper-middle-class supporters of Yair Lapid’s Yesh Atid party, and the millionaires and billionaires who sit atop Israel’s finance and tech sectors. In the past few weeks, since Netanyahu and Levin announced their plans for judicial overhaul, substantial portions of Israeli and foreign capital have gone into defensive mode: venture capitalists are contemplating withdrawing funds from Israeli businesses, wealthy Israelis are gradually moving their money abroad, and young, privileged professionals who do not possess an EU passport are scrambling for one.


(snip)

Now, however, Netanyahu’s messianic coalition partners are catching up with him, and he is no longer in full control of the situation. The business elites see this, and they are worried. The prime minister cannot be seen as a responsible moderate when his top ministers are avowed racists such as Ben Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich. Yet he also has no political alternative: the divide between pro- and anti-Netanyahu factions in the Knesset is so broad that Netanyahu has only one possible coalition, and his partners expect action. They demand a complete legal overhaul in order to see through their grand plans for this country: entrenching apartheid, advancing annexation, and expelling Palestinian representatives from the Knesset. And they won’t budge.

sabbat hunter

(6,891 posts)
19. The really sad part is
Tue Feb 21, 2023, 06:38 PM
Feb 2023

I don't see 4 members of Bibi's Likud party turning on him to abandon the coalition. Nor do I see it easy to pull Shas and/or UTJ away from the current coalition to bring down Bibi.

There has to be a way to break the current coalition, get new elections called, and a new anti-Bibi stable coalition to be formed. Labor Party is down to 4 mandates. Meretz has completely collapsed with zero mandates.

What happened to the left/center-left in Israel?

Israeli

(4,289 posts)
20. nor will you
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 07:49 AM
Feb 2023

the Likud , Shas and UTJ all support the settler movement .
To be honest most Israelis do .....thats democracy nu ?
























sabbat hunter

(6,891 posts)
21. What has happened
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 01:59 PM
Feb 2023

to the center-left/left in Israel? Disillusioned? no longer around?

Mosby

(17,383 posts)
23. It really is curious
Fri Feb 24, 2023, 02:39 PM
Feb 2023

Some of the left moved to Lapid and Gantz parties, but that still doesn't account for it AFAIK.

Response to Israeli (Reply #20)

Israeli

(4,289 posts)
10. Dream on ...nt.
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 02:10 PM
Feb 2023

sabbat hunter

(6,891 posts)
16. I do not
Sun Feb 19, 2023, 08:26 PM
Feb 2023

for one second want a 1 state solution. It is not a good thing IMHO.

Israeli

(4,289 posts)
18. Apologies
Mon Feb 20, 2023, 03:38 AM
Feb 2023

I did not think for one moment that you did .

My comment was just that it will never happen because their plan is
to annex all of the land they see as given to them by god and remove all
non believers in their god .

Read up on Smotrich and Orit Strock and the Otzma Yehudit party.

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