Do the Palestinians Really Want a State?

[Mosby]

In all the focus on the December 23rd vote at the UN Security Council — where 14 nations supported a resolution critical of Israel, and the US broke with longstanding policy and abstained instead of vetoing the measure — the question of underlying Palestinian motives has not been addressed.

It should be. In fact, it’s the key to the whole exercise.

First, the Palestinians have rejected one offer after another for a peaceful settlement in the past nearly 70 years. Second, and more tragically, their misguided actions now make any chance of an accord even less likely.

Friday’s UN Security Council resolution is a case in point.

If the goal was to increase the chance of Palestinian statehood alongside Israel (and not in its place), the effort was an abysmal failure, despite the lopsided vote. Those diplomats who rushed to applaud the outcome — and I’ll set aside that thuggish countries like Venezuela that don’t bring a shred of good will to the table — should think twice about what they actually achieved.

https://www.algemeiner.com/2016/12/26/do-the-palestinians-really-want-a-state/

[sellitman]

1. The world has never wanted Israel to continue

It's very clear that the Palestinians want it all or nothing. There will never be a two state nation. It will be all or nothing.

Anyone thinking otherwise is delusional at best.

[Mosby]

3. Exactly

The Arabs and Palestinians are locked into a zero sum game, that's why they are celebrating UNSCR 2334 as a "win".

[geek tragedy]

8. Classic projection. The Israelis built the settlements

for the strategic purpose of establishing an apartheid state in Palestine, by making ia Palestinian state physically impossible. They were too greedy and too driven by religious extremism to stay within their own borders.

And that will have long term consequences. Bibi is the incarnation of PW Botha.

[shira]

15. So Jews taking the Kotel back is really Apartheid in disguise.

Jews living in Jerusalem, a war crime.

What a bunch of vile racist trash.

[still_one]

28. I guess the assassination of Rabin was the Palestinians fault?

Last edited Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:25 AM - Edit history (1)

Let me state right up front I believe the only viable solution is a two-state solution, but let me be clear also that extremists on both sides have being doing everything in their power to see that doesn't occur.

and for those who would like to think Israel doesn't have its extremists one only needs to look at those with the mindset of Baruch Goldstein or Meir Kahane

Ehud Barak is of the view that the 'Majority of Israelis' agree with Kerry:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/222451

regardless, the fact is Israel is divided, not unlike the divisions here in America.

Netanyahu has done tremendous damage to Israel. Not only by involving himself in U.S. politics, even going so far as to snub the President, and actively campaign in Florida for Romney, but by his continuous inflammatory rhetoric

[shira]

38. Can't admit the Palestinians don't want 2 states for 2 people?

That's the problem with Israel's harshest critics. Ignoring or always making excuses for fanatic Jew hatred.

?w=720

[still_one]

40. you didn't address one point I made, including the point regarding Netanyahu trying to involve

himself in the American election.

You put a poster up that say's "Israel needs a partner for peace".

It was Yitzhak Rabin who said "you don't make peace with friends. You make it with your enemies"

and Prime Minister Rabin NEVER made excuses for "fanatic Jew hatred" as you put it

[shira]

42. The poster you responded to says the PA wants it all, not 2 states/2 people...

That's a fact you're trying to ignore or explain away. It's the topic of the OP & it's undeniable.

You mentioned Rabin but are you familiar with where Rabin was on this topic just days before the assassination?

We view the permanent solution in the framework of State of Israel which will include most of the area of the Land of Israel as it was under the rule of the British Mandate, and alongside it a Palestinian entity which will be a home to most of the Palestinian residents living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

We would like this to be an entity which is less than a state, and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines.

And these are the main changes, not all of them, which we envision and want in the permanent solution:

A. First and foremost, united Jerusalem, which will include both Ma'ale Adumim and Givat Ze'ev -- as the capital of Israel, under Israeli sovereignty, while preserving the rights of the members of the other faiths, Christianity and Islam, to freedom of access and freedom of worship in their holy places, according to the customs of their faiths.

B. The security border of the State of Israel will be located in the Jordan Valley, in the broadest meaning of that term.

C. Changes which will include the addition of Gush Etzion, Efrat, Beitar and other communities, most of which are in the area east of what was the "Green Line," prior to the Six Day War.

D. The establishment of blocs of settlements in Judea and Samaria, like the one in Gush Katif.

This is almost identical to Netanyahu's position.

As to the Palestinians not wanting peace, Rabin's daughter said he was about to call off Oslo because he could no longer trust Arafat & his fanatic Jew hatred...

In fact, Rabin may have been close to calling-off the Oslo process, according his daughter Dalia. Three years ago, she told Yediot Aharonot (October 1, 2010) that “many people who were close to father told me that on the eve of the murder he considered stopping the Oslo process because of the terror that was running rampant in the streets, and because he felt that Yasser Arafat was not delivering on his promises.”

“Father after all wasn’t a blind man running forward without thought. I don’t rule out the possibility that he was considering a U-turn, doing a reverse on our side. After all he was someone for whom the national security of the state was sacrosanct and above all,” former deputy defense minister Dalia Rabin said.

In his book The Long Short Way (Yediot Aharonot Press, Hebrew, 2008), current Defense Minister Moshe “Bogie” Ya’alon wrote that a few weeks before the assassination, Rabin told Ya’alon (who was then chief of IDF Military Intelligence) that after the next election, “he (Rabin) was going to ‘set things straight’ with the Oslo process, because Arafat could no longer be trusted.”

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Yitzhak-Rabin-was-close-to-stopping-the-Oslo-process-329064

Be realistic, admit the Palestinians do not want 2 states for 2 people. They want this war to go on until they get everything.

Given that reality, what should Israel be expected to do?

[still_one]

43. Yes I am aware, and for security reasons, I never thought returning to the 1967 lines was a viable

option. That, along with the fact that Jews were not even allowed into Jerusalem pre-1967, and its religious sites were desecrated, during the Jordon annexation.

However, in the end the parties need to be brought back to the negotiating tables

[shira]

44. Negotiating with an enemy who won't call off the war is futile...

Hamas and the PLO want to keep killing Jews. They want to continue praising & rewarding murderers for their terror. How does Israel meet that half way? Only kill Jews on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays? Come on, what a waste of time.

The PA just doesn't want 2 states for 2 people. They will never recognize Israel as the homeland of the Jews. They want it all & they're very clear about this. Neither Rabin or anyone representing Meretz today could cut a deal with the Palestinians. No offer will ever be good enough. Olmert's offer from 2008 being proof of that.

I posted this article this morning...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134134735

What do you think?

[geek tragedy]

2. Nothing is ever Israel's fault nt

[Ford_Prefect]

4. Never is, was, or will be...Imagine that. The Right Wing is the only wing that matters

according to Bibi and the settlement builder's squad. No one is truly a patriot that doesn't support endless settlement expansion and attacking Iran, and that goes for the US Congress too!

I have friends who emigrated there years ago with their parents who now say they wish they could leave as it is not safe to publicly express ideas at odds with Likud policy. This is not the Israel their parents dreamed of nor the one they were promised.

[aranthus]

5. Please.

Any objective observer could tell that pro-Israelis are far more likely to place blame on Israel than your side is to ever blame the Palestinians. The one sideness is just too obvious.

[sellitman]

6. Bravo

It's so obvious. The Palestinian propaganda machine sure had found a home here in the left. It's sad.

[geek tragedy]

7. Palestinians have been a hot mess for decades.

They are also relatively powerless.

And they bear zero culpability for Israel's abominable settlement project.

[aranthus]

9. Thanks for proving my point. n/t

[shira]

11. Rejecting every 2 state offer & non-stop terror attacks? No problem....

Palestinians can never be blamed for anything. Ever.

I view such a position as outright support for the Hamas platform.

[geek tragedy]

21. the Palestinians are to blame for their own behavior, which has been reckless and violent far too

often. And they find themselves suffering the consequences of this dysfunction, being governed by the corrupt and venal in one location and the corrupt and fanatical in another.

But, they are not responsible for Israel's decision to unilaterally implement the one-state solution via settlement construction.

It is very rare to see pro-Israel advocates actually accept the idea that Israel should be held accountable for its own misfeasance and malfeasance.

[shira]

22. Their behavior towards Israel precedes the settlements. Ever think about that?

Also, indigenous Jews building on their ancestral land isn't anywhere near as bad as terror attacks against the Jewish population that Palestinian leaders incite, praise, and reward (with American tax dollars). It's atrocious that people equate the two or argue that Jews in Jerusalem is worse than Hamas/PLO sending kids out to blow up, stab, or run-over Jews. Talk about a broken moral compass.

[shira]

12. Do you believe the Western Wall is occupied territory & should be Jew Free?

No games, just a simple Yes or No.

Is the Kotel a settlement?

[shira]

14. So no Jews belong at the Kotel. Okay. As for Palestinian blame...

....it's telling you don't believe rejecting every 2 state offer for the past century in addition to continued terror attacks is at all blameworthy. I get it because like yourself, they don't believe the Jewish state has any right to exist in peace.

[shira]

17. The fault lies with the Palestinians. That's the OP, which you're trying to deflect from.

You can't find even one reason to blame the Palestinians since your goal is the same as theirs; meaning, the destruction of Israel which is more important than them having their own state.

[sabbat hunter]

18. Why should

the old city belong to Palestine?

[shira]

20. What are you talking about, Martial Law in Jerusalem? It's the capital of Israel.

Last edited Thu Dec 29, 2016, 03:31 PM - Edit history (1)

What kind of revisionist, low-level info., fake news sources are you using today?

BTW, having permanent residency status is something all liberal democracies offer - just like Israel. IOW, it's not Apartheid or Martial Law.

[sabbat hunter]

23. So you would be fine with

Israel controlling the old city, not giving it to a Palestine, as long as everyone living in it gets Israeli citizenship?

That is a great idea. Everyone living in the old city should be offered Israeli citizenship.

[sabbat hunter]

29. They already have a capital

at Ramallah. That is where the seat of their government is at.

[shira]

36. So Arafat should've accepted the Clinton Parameters. A shame he didn't...

He accepted after the offer was off the table.

I don't know why you act as if you prefer 2 states when it's crystal clear you want one, just like the greater Israel folk. The difference is you prefer an Arab majority after full RoR and with the fanatics of Hamas/PLO in charge.

[sabbat hunter]

45. Jerusalem has never

been a capital of Palestine, or even a major city (other than for religion) in the Arab world. with the partition after WW2, it wasn't going to be the capital of Palestine. It was only after Israel was established that the PA leadership decided that they wanted Jerusalem to be their capital.

[leftynyc]

25. Of course not

A state would mean they would have to actually give up terrorism and govern. I've seen ZERO proof they have the desire to do either of those things.

[HoneyBadger]

26. Of course they do

On their terms. Compromise is not an option yet.

[Snackshack]

27. ...

"First, the Palestinians have rejected one offer after another for a peaceful settlement in the past nearly 70 years."

True, but disingenuous.

One example.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/08/opinion/fictions-about-the-failure-at-camp-david.html

[shira]

30. That NYT article is disingenuous b/c Israel agreed to the Clinton Parameters....

...which was a better offer than Camp David. Not only Ehud Barak but the Israeli cabinet agreed to it.

Arafat rejected both offers. Then regretted it later but after they were off the table...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jun/22/israel

Couldn't have been such a bad offer if Arafat embraced it afterwards.

[Snackshack]

31. You are certainly...

Entitled to your opinion.

Hope you are having a nice evening. 🙂

[Snackshack]

34. True.

The continued expansion of settlements have ensured a two state solution will never be achieved. Isreal says that it has extended "generous" offers to the Palestinians in order to reach a peace yet they continue with the settlement expansion knowing fully the detrimental effect of the action on any peace accord. Netanyahu himself said a two state agreement will never happen during his campaign. So it is pretty clear where Isreal stands on the issue in both actions and word.

[shira]

37. The Palestinians have been offered a viable state but they reject 2 states 2 people.

That's the problem.

Seriously, look into the Clinton Parameters offer.

[shira]

41. I don't care for revisionist history. Clinton/Ross say Israel accepted...

....and Arafat rejected the Parameters. News reports state the same thing. There are no sources out there stating Arafat accepted the Parameters & Israel didn't.

This article shows Arafat only accepted after the offer was pulled...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jun/22/israel

You can pretend the terms are unacceptable but Arafat didn't think they were in 2002.

The fact is you reject any offer of 2 states for 2 people because you're against the existence of Israel altogether. You want to deny the right of self-determination and sovereignty to Jews, meaning you advocate the destruction of Israel, which is after all the BDS platform you support.

[shira]

47. You "forgot" the next line & the fact Arafat had already started Intifada II....

...which goes to show he was an enemy of peace.

Nice try with the revisionist history.

[shira]

35. The Clinton Parameters was not a Bantustan offer. Try again.

Meanwhile, there's no evidence whatsoever the Palestinians want 2 states for 2 people. They'd rather see Israel destroyed, like the BDS movement.