Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumSecular People, Gays and Arabs Don't Have Feelings in Israel
Im offended to the depths of my soul by what is done here in my name every day, but being neither religious nor right-wing, no one cares about offending my sensibilities.Gideon Levy
Jul 21, 2016
As with every other human thing in Israel, feelings, too, belong only to Jews. And, in fact, only to religious Jews. The meticulous will also add Holocaust survivors and bereaved families. Its only their feelings that one is forbidden to offend. Everyone else has no feelings, or at least they neednt be taken into account.
Theres no such thing as offending the sensibilities of secular people, leftists or just plain people, and certainly not of Arabs.
The Gay Pride Parade, for instance, is liable to offend religious sensibilities and therefore it cant be allowed to march down the main street of Beer Sheva. And in Jerusalem, populist mayor Nir Barkat will stay away from todays Pride Parade so as not to offend peoples feelings.
The Jerusalem Day flag parade through that same city seriously offends my feelings every year. It fills me with terrible shame. But the feelings of secular people, liberals or Arabs? Theres no such thing.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.732361
sinkingfeeling
(52,967 posts)offended.
shira
(30,109 posts)Just a sample of his vile support...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=123071
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)He is however critical of how Israel treats the Palestinians - perhaps you're confusing his criticism with supporting terror?
shira
(30,109 posts)Who do you think you're kidding? Here's Levy being congratulated at Mondoweiss for writing that it's Palestinians' right and duty to resist.
See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/10/resistance-duty-too/#sthash.btJwIByC.dpuf
Couldn't be more clear. It's their right to resist, even if by vile means.
And what's the reaction from the Mondoweiss author?
Does he read it the same way I read it?
Let's see...
Treason?
The means are open. Levy doesnt shut down armed resistance specifically. But that and other forms of Palestinian resistance have failed. So the means are open. Theyre also exhausted and failing.
See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/10/resistance-duty-too/#sthash.btJwIByC.dpuf
The only way to read Gideon Levy is as a terror supporter.
When Hamas and friends read that, they must read it as support.
This is nothing but incitement to terror.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:49 AM - Edit history (2)
This one is even more clear.
Palestinian terror is justified, as in it is their right to do so.
Other terrorism isn't justified.
You agree with this?
Its true that this kind of terror also hurts innocent people brutally. Its means are similar too. Palestinians attacked planes when Osama Bin Laden was still a business administration student in King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, and Palestinian suicide terrorists preceded ISIS. But all this cannot cover up the difference: ISISs goals are insane, the Palestinians goals are justified.
What would you say to a Gazan youngster hesitating whether to join the resistance? Is there any point to his life and any chance for his future if he and his colleagues bow their heads submissively before their jailers? Is there anyone, in Israel or the rest of the world, who would remember their existence without the violent resistance that is tagged as terrorism? And their brothers in the West Bank violence may not have given them any real achievements, but at least it raised their issue and put it on the agenda.
Lets be honest about it: Had the Palestinians not hijacked airplanes in the early '70s, would anyone in the world know about their disaster? Be interested in their fate? True, nothing has been solved since then, but this is despite their desperate resort to terror, not because of it.
Israel has given the Palestinians and the Arab world a fateful lesson it understands only force. Only force got Israel to return Sinai, only force led it to the Oslo talks, only by force will the Palestinian problem be solved. This force, in the case of people who have no army or air force, is terror.
The first 20 years of occupation, during which there was little terror, passed pleasantly, so it occurred to nobody to give the Palestinians even a few of their rights. Terror put these rights onto the agenda. Because of the first intifada, they reached Oslo.
The second intifada, which was more savage, brought disaster on them they lost some of the worlds sympathy and some of the sympathy toward them in Israel. But terror was and remained their only weapon. They have no other. Even if they destroy their entire shabby weapons arsenal and swear to walk in the light of Mahatma Gandhi, they have no chance of getting what is theirs without terror.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.710588
shira
(30,109 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Pointing out that Palestinian terrorism may have a cause, and that that cause is Israel's treatment of Palestinians doesn't mean a justification of terrorism. Levy is pretty clear that the cause for terrorism should be addressed, not ignored.
Perhaps you don't think that Israel's treatment of Palestinians is the direct cause of terrorism? That would go a long way towards explaining why you think that Levy is a terror supporter.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:55 AM - Edit history (1)
What happened to Little Tich from Oct. 2015? Is that a different Little Tich?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=115420
It's justification.
Gideon Levy flat-out admitted terror is justified against Israelis & not justified against Europeans.
Levy could not have made the case for terror better than any Hamasnik.
The entire article is incitement.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)but apart from that I still agree with the argument that even if the occupation is the main cause of Palestinian terrorism, it doesn't absolve the terrorist.
http://zionish.com/newtons-third-law-of-palestinian-stabbings/
shira
(30,109 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)But it's probably true that some Palestinians believe that there's no other way to stop the occupation. Mentioning it is in no way support for terrorism.
Levy is still OK.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 27, 2016, 06:14 AM - Edit history (1)
He's not merely reporting what Palestinians think and believe.
That's his argument too, no matter how much you want to deny the obvious.
shira
(30,109 posts)BDS = Support for terror, destroying the Jewish state.
100% antisemitism.
Pure filth.
You're on the wrong side of history.
Game over.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Israeli
(4,289 posts)By Natasha Roth
Published July 21, 2016
This is the same kind of hate speech that could be heard leading up to to last years Jerusalem Pride, at which Yishai Shlissel, an ultra-Orthodox man, stabbed teenager Shira Banki to death and wounded five other people. (Police have issued a restraining order barring members of Shlissels family from Jerusalem during this years parade, for fear that they may pose a threat to participants. They also arrested Shlissel himself, in prison, for conspiracy to carry out another attack.)
In the face of this incitement, Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat declared in an interview with Yedioth Ahronoth that he would not be attending Thursdays march because he doesnt want to harm the ultra-Orthodox and religious-Zionist public. Barkat could have kept silent on his reasons for not attending the march. Instead, he chose to validate the same homophobic sentiments that the march exists to stand up to.
Source: http://972mag.com/homophobia-rears-its-ugly-head-in-pride-month-in-israel/120745/
Israeli
(4,289 posts)Sima Kadmon
Published: 23.07
The shock in the secular world caused by Rabbi Yigal Levinstein's statements was so strong that even the chairman of Bayit Yehudi, Education Minister Naftali Bennett, had to condemn him. And after him, as always, the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. Basically, if you want to know what Netanyahu thinks about a specific topic, all you have to do is wait to hear Bennett's opinion, and then start the countdown to the PM's response. But there's no doubt that there are days when even the most committed atheist prays to God that Hell really exists, just so Levinstein and his ilk can goafter living to a ripe old age, of courseto their rightful place.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4832210,00.html
Few in the religious sector honestly and openly express their faith. Most of them belong to the school of pretending innocence and eye-rolling, while it's disseminated via yeshivas like Ateret Hacohanim and others like it to the pre-army preparatory yeshivas (mechinot) and from there to the junior command ranks in the army, and within a short time, also to the senior command. Rulings, instructions and statements of people of that sector that shock us every time anew, like we haven't heard such things regularly. Worldviews that are likely to one day decide that it's permissible and even required to violate the Sabbath to save a Givati brigade commander, but it's utterly forbidden to save a Golani brigade commander on the Sabbath because he isn't Jewish.
It's forbidden for women to enlist, and if, God forbid, they enlist, it's forbidden to be around them, certainly not when they're commanders. Because the presence of a female commander around male soldiers requires them to focus their gaze on her, which violates the prohibition on looking.
Travelers on a full cart don't really believe that travelers on empty carts have values, faith or morals. The biggest insult that a secular person could say to a religious one is, "Believe me that the respect that I have for you is exactly like the respect that you have for me."
Well, we understand. We're the messiah's donkey, destined to do the dirty work, not out of stupidity, but out of patience. But even patience has an end. And even though Rabbi Levinstein says behind closed doors that it's possible to help people change their tendencies, it's doubtful it it's possible to help people to be rehabilitated from the darkness of their religious faith.
Israeli
(4,289 posts)First there was the Gays are Perverts speech by Rabbi Yigal Levenstein, one of the leading educators of the younger generation of Orthodox Zionism. This was followed by the disturbingly unenlightened ideas expressed by Col. Eyal Karim, who is designated to become the next chief rabbi of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). Then came Orthodox former commander retired Maj. Gen. Gershon HaCohens defense of Orthodox Zionist Brig. Gen. Ofek Buchris upon being accused of rape. All of this should compel Orthodox Zionism to engage in some serious soul-searching.
Even when taken individually, each incident is so unacceptable that its very roots should come under investigation. When these events follow one another in a period of weeks, they expose the powerful forces at work to change the very essence of Orthodox Zionism as we once knew it.
At the center of each of these incidents are some of the most senior and influential figures in Orthodox Zionism, the very people charged with educating the next generation. For that reason alone, what happened cannot be considered a series of stand-alone incidents. They represent a line of thought and action that must prompt a much more comprehensive debate than simply focusing on incitement against gays and lesbians.
HaBayit HaYehudi Chairman and Minister of Education Naftali Bennett did have the courage to renounce Rabbi Levensteins pervert speech, even if it meant coming out against a popular figure who plays a dominant role in his own religious Zionist electorate. On the other hand, he did not go far enough. For example, he did not demand that Rabbi Levenstein be removed from his position as head of the pre-military yeshiva in Eli. The reason for this is simple. While Bennett realizes that Levensteins remarks are destructive and ignorant, and that they are tearing Orthodox Zionism apart from the inside, he is also aware that Levensteins followers have enormous public and electoral strength as evidenced by the hundreds of rabbis who signed a letter in support of Levenstein. Bennett focused on Rabbi Levensteins boorish remarks about gay people, but he ignored the fact that Levenstein also said that reform Jews are ''part of Christianity.'' Obviously this would have been one battle too many for him. At the same time, Bennett also ignored the underlying principle behind Rabbi Levensteins comprehensive ideology, which advocates the superiority of Jewish law and religion over national institutions, chief among them the IDF.
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/07/orthodox-zionist-eyal-karim-gays-speech-ofek-buchris.html#ixzz4FgD4vOfT
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The paragraphs excerpted completely contradict themselves.
1. The Pride Parade occurs. No one prevents it from happening for fear of offending people's feelings. Most religious people don't take part.
2. The Jerusalem Day Parade occurs. No one prevents it from happening for fear of offending people's feelings. Most secular people don't take part .
Neither event is canceled because it fills Gideon or anyone else "with terrible shame".
shira
(30,109 posts)Israeli
(4,289 posts)..........that our Gideon offends you both so much .
He doesn't compromise shira .....
shira
(30,109 posts)He's a vile, pathetic POS and it's no wonder the past Zionist potzers from all of Israel can barely fill a small room.
Israeli
(4,289 posts).......
shira
(30,109 posts)Nothing but a justification for Palestinian terror.
Pure incitement.
6chars
(3,967 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 26, 2016, 10:25 AM - Edit history (1)
"the resort of those who have no choice" - what about all the other people in the world who are able to find a choice other than terror? there are plenty of choices. By saying there is no choice, Gideon Levy is just encouraging the Palestinians by implying terrorism is the RIGHT choice. horrible.
shira
(30,109 posts)...than to stab, run over, & blow up innocents. That's what everyone in the world does, right?