Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumAn Israeli Law Created to Incite
It's still not too late for the coalition's leadership to come to its senses and put a stop to the 'expulsion law.'Haaretz Editorial
Jul 18, 2016
Last week, the Knesset Constitution, Law and Justice Committee approved the main elements of the “expulsion law,” which will be brought to the plenum on Tuesday for its second and third reading.
The bill, an amendment to the Basic Law on the Knesset, is meant to enable the ouster of a sitting Knesset member by a vote of 90 out of the 120 MKs. Throughout the committee’s discussions, it was called the “suspension bill,” but before those discussions had ended, committee chairman Nissan Slomiansky admitted that there’s no choice but to call it what it really is: expulsion.
During the discussions, several changes were made in the bill. Inter alia, at least 70 MKs, including at least 10 opposition members, will have to vote to start the expulsion proceedings; in addition, such proceedings cannot be launched during an election campaign. But these changes do nothing to change the bill’s essence, which undermines the heart of the democratic system of government – the right to elect and to be elected.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.731642
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ford_Prefect
(8,198 posts)
6chars
(3,967 posts)It all started with the ban on racist and antidemocratic parties.
Ford_Prefect
(8,198 posts)and those who do not espouse the regime with sufficient patriotic fervor.
FBaggins
(27,601 posts)Most democratic legislative bodies have the power to expel a member when appropriate, and a 3/4 threshold is higher than most (particularly considering the fact that the initial start requires at least 10 opposition members).
The expelled member is replaced by the next person on their party's list, so it doesn't even impact that balance of power.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)to those who think about it. But the poster right above you says the concentration camps are the next step.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)or a question? And what does that have to do with the hyperbolic bullshit I was posting about?
shira
(30,109 posts)http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Balad-MKs-praise-Hizbullah-resistance
Balad, Hadash condemn Gulf labeling of Hezbollah as 'terror group'
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4775483,00.html
Arab MKs attend Hamas 'victory rally'
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Arab-MKs-attend-Hamas-victory-rally-372829
Zoabi: Kidnappers are not terrorists, they're fighting occupation
http://www.jpost.com/Pillar-of-Defense/Zoabi-Kidnappers-are-not-terrorists-theyre-fighting-occupation-359609
WATCH Hanin Zoabi: Israel has no right to live in security
http://972mag.com/watch-hanin-zoabi-israel-has-no-right-to-live-in-security/36847/
6chars
(3,967 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)There are rules for temporary suspensions of MPs in most democratic countries. For example, Dennis Skinner was suspended from the UK Parliament for 5 days after calling David Cameron "dodgy Dave". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_from_the_UK_parliament) But there are no laws for permanent suspensions - perhaps there are in countries like Russia or Iran, but they're not really democratic, IMHO.
FBaggins
(27,601 posts)Article I Section V of the Constitution empowers either house with the ability to expel a member on a 2/3 vote.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)FBaggins
(27,601 posts)Most these days resign before an expulsion vote is held (Packwood in '95, Ney in '06, etc.)
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 19, 2016, 01:51 AM - Edit history (1)
but do you know of any more recent expulsions that involve people who were expelled for their political views, and not personal misconduct? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_from_the_United_States_Congress) The reason I'm asking is because the Israeli law is targeting Arab MKs who hold supposedly anti-Israel views, and I'm wondering if there's any democratic country with a similar law.
FBaggins
(27,601 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 19, 2016, 10:17 AM - Edit history (1)
But that's an irrelevant distinction that you're trying to create. There is no such standard in the Constitution or the rules implemented by other legislative bodies. Also - lots of politicians in danger of removal will claim that it isn't for personal misconduct... but rather for their politics. Bill Clinton was impeached (though not removed). Do you believe that it was due to personal misconduct - or because of his politics?
The reason I'm asking is because the Israeli law is targeting Arab MKs who hold supposedly anti-Israel views
By creating a law that doesn't even require an election for their replacement? If someone is expelled, his/her immediate replacement is the next person in line from the same party (presumably with the same political views).
This makes your spin particularly difficult to defend. If anything - by setting the bar so high to expel and no leaving the seat empty or up for an election that the majority could theoretically win... this rule is significantly more democratic than any of the three legislative bodies that we've been discussing.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)all other democratic countries?
First you argue that other countries have similar laws, but when presented with evidence that they don't, you change your argument, claiming that Israel is made more democratic by the law.
Nope, this law is a travesty and should never have been passed.
shira
(30,109 posts)Supporters of Hamas and Hezbollah shouldn't be in the Knesset.
See #28 above for examples.
Those who support terrorists - whether from Balad, BDS, or Mondoweiss - are no better than white supremacists, skinheads, or KKK'ers.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)suspending MPs.
This is a big step in the wrong direction.
FBaggins
(27,601 posts)I don't think that the House of Lords has a process, but (in addition to the US above), here's a document from the House of Commons (UK Parliament)
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-information-office/g06.pdf
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)really a permanent ban. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_from_the_UK_parliament) Israel wants to ban (Arab) MKs permanently for their political views, which is a bit different.
FBaggins
(27,601 posts)You're really implying that an example of suspension means that expulsion is not possible?
The document that I provided made clear that an expulsion creates a vacancy... and gives multiple examples of expelled MPs. That isn't a suspension.
And here's an example from Canada:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/marleaumontpetit/DocumentViewer.aspx?Sec=Ch04&Seq=15&Language=E
I believe that both Canada and the UK require merely a majority vote.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The Israeli law is about expelling MKS for their political views, while the UK and US laws are about personal misconduct, so they're fundamentally different. None of the expulsions according to the Israeli law would be possible under US or UK law. Here's an article about expelled UK MPs:
Criminal MPs: the five expelled from the Commons in the past 100 years
Source: The Guardian, 12 January 2011
Only five serving MPs have been expelled from the house in the past 100 years after receiving a criminal conviction. Among them are some of the shadiest characters to have ever walked the corridors of power.
John Stonehouse, the Labour MP for Walsall South, was expelled in August 1976 after a parliamentary career that started with ambitions to be prime minister and ended with him faking his own death. In the early 1970s Stonehouse, who had previously held several ministerial posts, had severe business problems and fled to Australia on a dead constituent's passport via Miami where he left his clothes on a beach, faking his own suicide. The police caught up with him on Christmas Eve in 1975 and he was sent to Brixton prison, where he continued to serve as an MP. He eventually resigned in August, but not before he had resigned the Labour party whip, costing his party – which had up to then failed to expel him – its majority in the Commons.
Peter Baker, the Conservative MP for South Norfolk, was automatically expelled on 16 December 1954 when he was sentenced to seven years' imprisonment after forging signatures on letters purporting to guarantee debts when his companies ran into financial difficulties.
Horatio Bottomley, the independent MP for Hackney South, was a serial fraudster who was served with 66 bankruptcy writs during his life. After growing up in an orphanage in the East End of London, Bottomley had an extraordinary business career that alternated between grand-scale swindle and bankruptcy. He was also the first chairman of the Financial Times. In 1918 he founded the John Bull Victory Bond Club, a precursor to the premium bonds, and £900,000 in subscriptions duly rolled in. The club went bust and he was charged with fraud and sentenced to seven years' imprisonment. He was subsequently expelled from parliament on 1 August 1922.
Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jan/11/criminal-mps-expelled-from-commons
FBaggins
(27,601 posts)But it has been entirely yours.
The Israeli law is about expelling MKS for their political views
You don't get to attribute a motive and then clam that it makes all the difference. It certainly doesn't excuse your blatantly-false claims that other democracies don't have similar rules.
while the UK and US laws are about personal misconduct,
None of the three that we've been discussing (UK/US/Canada) restrict expulsions to criminal acts or personal misconduct. Nor can you honestly claim that those who have been suspended in the past (and would thus be possible targets for expulsion) were punished for their political views. For instance, incitement to terrorism is against the law in Israel.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: Middle East Eye, 7 February 2016
"In a meeting with heads of the coalition parties, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu agreed on formulating a bill that would enable the Knesset (parliament) to suspend a member over inappropriate conduct," a statement read.
Such a suspension would need the approval of 90 out of the parliament's 120 members.
Netanyahu's declaration came after three Palestinian Israeli lawmakers visited relatives of Palestinians killed after attacking Israelis, drawing harsh condemnation from most of the political establishment.
Basel Ghattas, Jamal Zahalka and Hanin Zoabi of the Balad party attended a meeting initiated by a Palestinian committee seeking to retrieve the bodies of attackers killed by Israeli security forces.
Read more: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/netanyahu-wants-law-suspend-mps-after-visit-attackers-families-2056937220
Of course, this is all baloney, as Jewish politicians do the same thing - for example, Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked met with the mother of a Jewish terrorist, but nobody is calling for her removal. (http://972mag.com/jewish-politicians-meet-with-terrorist-families-too/116779/) And then we have MK Bezalel Smotric who think that there's no such thing as Jewish terrorists. (http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.691124) No laws are created to suspend him.
The Arab MKs visited the families of terrorists who were subjected to collective punishment, they didn't support terrorism in any way. What they did was morally right, and if Israel subjected the families of Jewish terrorists to the same unfair treatment, it would be justified to support those families too.
If incitement to terrorism is indeed against the law, why are Ayelet Shaked and Bezalel Smotric still in the Knesset and not in prison?
shira
(30,109 posts)Meanwhile, the Arab MK's who visited terrorist families' homes actually support that terror.
We had this conversation before, or did you forget?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134124672
It's amazing how Shaked's death penalty for Jewish terrorists equates to support of Jewish terrorism in your mind.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Your claim that Shaked is hard on Jewish terrorism seems illogical when the goal of her visit was to show support for a Jewish terrorist. I'm not really sure how or when Shaked called for death penalty for Jewish terrorists, but her actions show that she supports Jewish terrorists.
OTOH, I think that the Balad MKs did the right thing to visit the families of dead terrorists, simply because I believe in civil rights and stuff. Democratic states don't do collective punishment, and that should include Israel. The bodies of dead terrorists are not a security risk, and withholding their release to prevent burial is a form of collective punishment.
shira
(30,109 posts)The link in #28 shows conclusively they're supporters of terror, every bit as much as articles from Mondoweiss prove they support terror as well. Why are you pretending these Balad MK's aren't terror supporters of Hamas & Hezbollah as post #28 shows?
As to Shaked, here's an answer from the comments to that article cited:
1. “Netanyahu wants to kick Arab MKs out of the Knesset for meeting with families of Palestinian terrorists”.
That is not true. The Arab Mks are accused of supporting and glorying terrorism against Israel and Israeli citizens. That is what is at issue. That is a crime in Israel and many other countries. The police is looking into the matter and if convicted, these terrorists in Israeli Knesset must be thrown out of the Knesset.
2. “According to American liberal Jewish newspaper The Forward, Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked met recently with the mother of an Israeli American minor suspect in the murder of three Palestinians last year”.
• Minister Shaked does not support and glorify terrorism against anyone and condemns any and all acts of terrorism.
• Minister Shaked met with the mother of a “suspect”, not a terrorist. The Minister found it necessary to reassure Israeli public and the mother of the minor that her underage son is NOT being tortured by Israeli Authorities as was being widely reported. That is a democratic, moral and responsible thing to do!
• The American Embassy also requested to meet and have met with the minor!
• Neither the mother of the suspect nor the American Embassy are Elected Members of the Knesset/Israeli Congress. None supports and glory terrorism like the Arab MKs are doing and have done!
....
As to Shaked and this pretend "illogic" that she is hard on Jewish terror, Shaked actually admitted she wanted the death penalty for Jewish terrorists...
http://www.timesofisrael.com/justice-minister-backs-death-penalty-for-terrorists-who-killed-palestinian-baby/
As opposed to the Balad MK goons you're defending who support Hamas & Hezbollah ...
How wrong can you possibly be?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)rather, it seems as if she's cornered by journalists who confront her with her own statements.
Has she actually called for the death penalty for Jewish terrorists on her own accord at any time?
And no, I don't understand how visiting a mother of a Jewish terrorist to assure her that the terrorist won't be treated like a Palestinian means that she's tough on Jewish terrorism. It actually seems as if she's supporting the terrorist.
I feel as if I'm repeating myself, but the Balad MKs did the right thing. Israel agreed to release the bodies of the dead terrorists after the meeting. If they hadn't met with the families, the bodies wouldn't have been released so quickly. A civilized country doesn't prevent dead criminals from being buried.
shira
(30,109 posts)There's no question Balad MK's support terrorists as well as terrorist families.
Why the pretense, repeating Balad MK's did the right thing? Why pretend these Arab MK's are not supporters of terror?
How absurd. She doesn't hesitate in agreeing that the death penalty is appropriate for Jewish terrorists. She even says Jewish terrorism is WORSE than Palestinian terror. WTF are you reading?
Why? Even if she did, you'd deny or explain it away like you're doing now.
Reassuring the mother of a suspect that her minor child isn't being tortured is "support" for terror in your view. Meanwhile, you deny Balad MK's support terror when they (a) admit support for Hezbollah & Hamas and (b) observed a moment of silence for the terrorist "martyr". I mean seriously, WTF? Unreal.
These ridiculous explanations of yours and denial reminds me of true believing fanatical religious extremists. No amount of facts or logic can penetrate such a mind.
6chars
(3,967 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)And how does this relate to the Israeli suspension law?
shira
(30,109 posts)Using regulations that previously had been used only against Palestinians, the Israeli government has banned the Kach and Kahane Chai political parties.
The Israeli Cabinet, which voted unanimously on the measure during its weekly session Sunday, outlawed the two groups, declaring them terrorist organizations.
The way it relates today is that there are Arab parties in the Knesset (Balad) that support terrorism against Israeli innocents.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)
Israeli
(4,289 posts)By Michael Schaeffer Omer-Man
Published July 20, 2016
On the face of it, there is nothing wrong with the “Expulsion Law” passed by Israel’s Knesset early Wednesday morning. Lots of other parliaments have mechanisms for expelling elected representatives. In the U.S. Congress, all you need is a two-thirds majority vote determining that a member is guilty of “disorderly behavior.”
What is wrong with Israel’s new law is that it targets one particular parliamentarian and her party — who just happen to be elected representatives of Israel’s Palestinian citizens.
(snip)
The only Israeli parties that have consistently voted against excluding Arab parties from the Knesset are left-wing Zionist party Meretz and the Arab parties themselves, who together control a mere 18 seats (three short of being able to block an expulsion vote).
History has shown us that when it comes time to win a few votes, almost all Jewish Israeli political parties are willing to turn on the Arabs. Doing so has become a populist ritual of sorts.
In the entirety of its 227-year history, the United States Senate has expelled only 15 senators from elected office. Fourteen of them were expelled for disloyalty during the Civil War. Arab elected representatives in Israel today, on the other hand, are not at risk of expulsion because they are taking sides in a civil war; they are in the political crosshairs for engaging in civil discourse — for daring to challenge a political system that makes them, Palestinians, second-class citizens at best.
In the words of MK Yousef Jabareen, when it comes to Palestinian members of Knesset, the new law “will make the right to be elected conditional on ‘good behavior’.”
Continued @
http://972mag.com/new-israeli-law-seeks-to-expel-misbehaved-arab-parliamentarians/120752/