Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumMore proof of Breaking the Silence's lies
Game over for BtS as they're losing Israelis who once supported them.
Admit Deri, the head of Reservists on the Front, is pleased with a study released by Channel 10, showing that most of Breaking the Silence's claims of war crimes are baseless or invented.
Speaking with Arutz Sheva, Deri explained that the research confirms what his group has been saying for the past six months.
"The material they published affirms what we put forward. This is very serious research that was conducted by journalists who previously stated their support for Breaking the Silence, like Raviv Drucker. In the end it came out that the group does lie. In a sample of ten Breaking the Silence testimonies, the project found that two claims of beating detainees and shooting innocents were complete lies, two were exaggerated and four were impossible to verify. Only two of the ten were accurate."
Deri feels that the message is clear: "We need to exclude this organization from all forums and not invite them to speak. I am happy that this is what's happening. In 2015 they didn't receive a single soldier's contribution, and this pulls the rug out from under them. We call on combat soldiers not to turn to them. This is the last place that should be resolving ethical issues. Today most combat soldiers understand their intentions and motivations."
He acknowledges that the group will continue receiving money from abroad and working. "They receive financial support from foreign countries and organizations. They won't stop, but they won't have testimony. Most of the group's activists abandoned Israel for other countries and this says a lot. The difference between Breaking the Silence and B'Tselem is that Breaking the Silence uses combat soldiers in a cynical manner and takes advantage of them in order to advance goals that interest foreign elements. In comparison, B'Tselem works with Palestinians but hides its true intentions."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/215019
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shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 16, 2016, 09:49 PM - Edit history (4)
Harrasment and deception, cherry-picking from accounts....
Classy.
....The campaign, which includes a video entitled “Breaking the Silence hunters,” introduces three soldiers who say they were continuously pursued by the organization and encouraged to give testimonies of their service in the IDF.
In the video, the three soldiers, who served in elite units, say that following their discharge from the IDF they were contacted repeatedly by Breaking the Silence and encouraged to tell their stories of service in Operation Protective Edge. Asaf Goldshtoff, one of the soldiers, said that a representative from the group called him numerous times and was told that the organization “collects experiences from soldiers and listens to their stories.”
“What I understand today is that they take certain parts of the story and that is what they present to the public,” he said. Josh Levitan, a lone soldier from the UK, recounted a similar story, and said that a representative from the group called him eight or nine times until he finally agreed to meet with him. “They didn’t mention that they were going to record me,” Levitan says in the video. “I felt that they really took advantage of the situation, where a fighter that is going through what people went through after Operation Protective Edge, he has a need for some help.”
The video concludes with the question: “Is Breaking the Silence trying to pursue you?,” and urges soldiers who have been contacted by the organization to notify the Reservists on Duty hotline and report it. In less than 24 hours since the launch of the campaign, the hotline had received dozens of calls, Amit Deri, chairman and founder of Reservists on Duty told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday. “In the last six months, we discovered that many soldiers came to us and told us that Breaking the Silence had tried to pursue them,” Deri said.
more...
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/IDF-reservists-question-harassment-tactics-of-Breaking-the-Silence-457983#.V4rgVTIwCJs.twitter
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)
6chars
(3,967 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)They aren't anti-Zionist and they aren't advocating anything that would harm Israel or Israelis.
May I assume that you're going to continue on this track until everyone to the left of the right wing of the Zionist Union(in other words, any disagreement with the Occupation-and-perpetual settlement expansion status quo)is labeled as "anti-Israel"?
Can you just cut to the chase and tell us what, if any degree of dissent from the Likudnik version of Zionism is permissable?
By your standards, about 25% of the Knesset is anti-Israel.
shira
(30,109 posts)The real question is why do you feel it's important to accept their lies?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Do you even approve of Peace Now? They want the settlements gone too.
It doesn't make Israel a more secure country to obsess on discrediting peace groups.
Nothing would be improved if there was no public criticism or disagreement with the Israeli government on "security" issues.
shira
(30,109 posts)One of the leaders of BtS also lied about settlers poisoning wells...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4819952,00.html
I went to Breaking the Silence to try to understand what they meant. They referred me to me an alleged incident that occurred in 2004 wherein several Palestinians lodged a complaint over chicken carcasses thrown into a well.
They wrote about this on the Breaking the Silence website, and they put a short video on their Facebook page showing Shaul attributing the events to the work of hooligans. The fact that there are these hooligans who may or may not have thrown chicken carcasses into the well doesn't make Shaul's words true.
He talked about "the poisoning of the entire water supply." This never happened. He talked about the "entire village being evacuated for a period of several years. This also never happened.
When we take everything that Shaul has said, and combine them with the words of Breaking the Silence activist Avner Gavriyahu—an activist who claims that the IDF shoots at innocent Palestinians as if they are playing a videogame—the result isn't criticism, but demonization.
With this cheap propaganda, people all over the world will come to the conclusion that Israel treats the Palestinians in the same way that the Nazis treated the Jews. This isn't how to bring about the end of the occupation. This is not how to promote mutual understanding and reconciliation between Jews and Palestinians. This is how you increase hostility and hatred. This is how you push peace farther away.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It offered no actual evidence that they did.
It doesn't even prove that the assertion of the water-poisoning in the Palestinian village didn't occur.
It doesn't offer a link to the study that the official organ of the right-wing settlers movement(that's what "Israel National News" is-a mouthpiece for a group of people whose whole lives are based entirely on getting the Israeli government to try hold land that isn't part of Israel by any means necessary)claims proves BtS' dishonesty.
It doesn't prove dishonesty simply to state that an organization lied.
And what difference does it make if the BtS spokesman speaks in English? It's not an expression of hostility against Israel as a country to speak about the IDF in a language other than Hebrew.
BtS is not seeking the destruction of Israel. Nothing it advocates would harm Israeli Jews OR anyone in the Diaspora. And Israeli security is not enhanced by the suppression of dissenting voices and pro-human rights organizations.
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)A substantial number of Breaking the Silence testimonies are not true or are distorted
The report shattered the most powerful card BTS has: Its credibility. Two myths regarding Breaking the Silence were ‘busted’ in an indisputable manner:
The first myth Breaking the Silence likes to propagate is that “none of our testimonies have ever been refuted”. For over a decade since being founded, BTS has declined to disclose its sources. However, HaMakor reporters were given unprecedented access to the “Holy Grail”, BTS’s testimony sources. What the investigative team found deserves to be noted by anyone taking an interest in the moral state of the IDF – the report explicitly stated that Breaking the Silence publishes inaccurate and false testimonies. Out of ten random testimonies cross-examined by the reporters, two testimonies were found to be not true at all. Two testimonies were only partially true, missing substantive details or had exaggerated or misleading titles. A further four testimonies could not be verified, even after the reporters received access to the testimonies’ sources. Only two out of the ten testimonies were validated as true and not misleading.
The second myth that Breaking the Silences attempts to sell is that Breaking the Silence testimonies are cross-referenced with two sources. The reporters found that in several testimonies there is no evidence of two sources. Even Raviv Drucker, the journalist who established HaMakor and is known for his left wing leanings, could not hide his disappointment at the poor level of investigation in BTS’s work. In response, Breaking the Silence’s CEO Yuli Novak responded that “we are not an investigative body and we do not claim to be one”. This is quite disturbing, as Breaking the Silence testimonies were widely used in the work of official international investigative bodies such as the UN Independent Commission of Inquiry on the 2014 Gaza Conflict (which released the so called ”Schabas” report on Gaza). Testimonies provided by Breaking the Silence appeared 32 times in the UN report’s footnotes.
much more...
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/breaking-the-silences-myths-busted/
shira
(30,109 posts)Rumors and gossip are meant for tabloids, not for real journalism. In order for Breaking the Silence to be considered a reliable news source, the founder should not be setting a standard of presenting rumors as “testimonials.” A few weeks ago, BTS founder Yehuda Shaul falsely claimed that settlers in the West Bank had poisoned a well in the South Hebron Hills. Channel 10 program “HaMakor” investigated this matter and discovered that there were no eyewitnesses who actually saw a well being poisoned.
The story was based on settlers who were near a well that had a dead chicken inside of it. Perhaps not the tastiest of sights, this almost comical image is no basis for accusing settlers of poisoning anyone or claiming that they messed with the water. This poisoned well rumor spurred quite a commotion and the false story was later debunked entirely in a full report. For another example of poor reporting regarding water in the West Bank, BTS can check out CAMERA’s article on the West Bank’s water supply and maybe the founder can learn how to report more accurately on such a story next time.
5. BTS needs to take note: selective coverage is not truthful coverage
In his testimony, Avner Gvaryahu explained that a soldier in his unit was allegedly upset that he missed his shot at an unarmed Palestinian. The HaMakor reporters investigated this incident and this soldier that Gvaryahu refers to, was finally given a chance to speak. The soldier revealed a critical detail: this “unarmed” Palestinian was armed and in fact had just thrown two grenades at the unit. After nearly being killed by two grenades, this soldier was in fact a bit concerned when he failed to stop the terrorist and protect his fellow soldiers. In the future, BTS should verify such critical details of a story.
7. BTS needs to clarify why they think the human right of self-defense is forbidden
In his third testimony, Gvaryahu claimed there was allegedly permissive and inappropriate use of live fire in residential areas. Fellow soldiers who served with Gvaryahu explained that they were permitted to fire at anyone who emerged from a narrow passage.
However, the soldiers added a critical detail Gvaryahu failed to mention: they were only permitted to shoot in an area if already shot upon from that same area. When soldiers are shot at, soldiers are permitted to fire back in self-defense. However, the IDF follows strict procedure when any soldier fires and if a soldier shoots out of line, severe punishments follow.
In short, according to the HaMakor investigation, BTS needs to verify their witness testimonies and brush up on their facts.
more...
http://www.cameraoncampus.org/blog/10-tips-for-breaking-the-silence/#.V5yP1ZMrLR2
shira
(30,109 posts)In the first anonymous testimony, a soldier claimed that when his unit responded to a suspected price tag attack in the West Bank, the IDF trackers declined to follow footprints and other signs pointing to a nearby settlement. However, according to the police report, the IDF trackers involved and even the Palestinian victims of the “price tag” attack, the IDF trackers did find the culprit in the settlement. BtS hadn’t attempted to corroborate the soldier’s testimony with anyone else involved in the incident.
Another testimony (starting at 56:30) involved a soldier’s description of the unit commander’s general instructions that after they shoot an enemy they should put their gun “between the teeth of the terrorist and shoot.” Other soldiers from the same unit interviewed by “Hamakor” had no recollection of the event. When the journalists reached the original soldier, he said he no longer remembered the incident that way.
A third soldier (starting at 57:30) claimed that an IDF officer was fined a mere 100 shekels for killing a Palestinian child. Goren and Rom determined that the false story was debunked a decade ago and was based on nothing more than army gossip.
As previously mentioned, the veracity or lack thereof could not be determined in cases in which BtS refused to reveal the soldiers’ identities to the reporters. About these unverified stories, “Hamakor” noted that BtS had previously claimed (as quoted above) that the group would only publish “serious” allegations verified by two witnesses. When the journalists asked Yuli Novak, executive director of BtS, about this claim, she clarified that the organization doesn’t insist on “two eyewitnesses” to an incident, and will publish if it has “two sources.” The “Hamakor” presenters pointed out that this practice is not compatible with accepted journalistic standards.
https://ukmediawatch.org/2016/07/18/breaking-the-silence-gets-failing-grade-in-channel-10s-fact-check/comment-page-1/
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: Breaking the Silence, July 25, 2016
(snip)
The cases referred to by ‘Hamakor’ as those with parts which turned out to be “untrue” were incidents in which the findings of investigations (conducted either by police or intra-military) produced additional information, that was sometimes conflicting from the information known to the soldier who testified.
In order to provide the public with as complete a picture of the incident described in the testimony as possible, we added a note below these testimonies on our website describing the details that were discovered after the fact.
One of the testimonies referred to as incorrect by ‘Hamakor’ describes a ‘price-tag’ attack in which some 60 olive trees belonging to Palestinians were uprooted allegedly by settlers in the South Hebron Hills. In it, the testifier said that the IDF tracker dispatched to the area claimed it was impossible to know where the perpetrators came from. A police report written that day confirmed that the tracks spotted in the area led nowhere. We verified and published these details.
Only in the complete investigation file - which was written after the testimony was already verified and published - it turned out that the trackers later succeeded in detecting the tracks of the party that uprooted the trees, moreover, using them to lead the forces to a specific structure in the Havat Maon settlement outpost. Again - these details were only revealed at a later time, and were not known to the testifier.
It should be noted that this case too - like the vast majority of investigation files opened over cases of alleged settler violence – was ultimately closed on grounds of insufficient evidence. No arrests were made; no one was put on trial.
In effect, the description of the events told by the soldier (in accordance to what he experienced, and which we verified and published), is not nearly as bleak as the reality in which a serious crime is left unsolved or unpunished simply due to the ineffectiveness of the police in the handling of such cases.
The second example brought forth by ‘Hamakor’ regarded an incident from the Second Intifada in which a Palestinian child was killed in Nablus as a result of gunfire directed by an IDF officer at stone throwers. The soldier testifies as to the lenient rules of engagement dictated to the forces and the fact that the punishment for the officer for killing a child was a monetary fine of 100 Shekels. These details were known to the soldier who gave the testimony, as well as to other soldiers in the unit, as told by the officer himself who fired the shots and was punished, and who served at that time as a deputy company commander.
In this case as well, reality was later found to be even worse than what was described in the testimony we published. There is no dispute over the fact that a Palestinian child was killed by imprecise gunfire and that the officer was fined as a result of his conduct during the operation. But in retrospect, it turns out that the soldiers were unaware at the time that the officer was not punished for killing the child - but rather for "negligence in carrying out the mission." In response to the killing of the child, the officer was only told that he ought to have pointed his fire at the child’s legs, and avoided killing him.
Read more: http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/inside/hamakorqa/
shira
(30,109 posts)The Leftwing support they once had in Israel is now gone.
There is a positive side, however, as BtS can rest assured knowing they can always depend on the support of Jew haters worldwide.
BtS serves as a great example & model of what the entire BDS movement is all about.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Never mind that no humane, progressive pro-Occupation, pro-settlement position exists. No one on the left and no one who WANTS peace defends either.
BTW, don't ever imply that opposition to the Occupation and the settlements equals hatred of Jews. Neither of those things does anything to make Jewish people safe, in Israel or anywhere else.
Israel doesn't NEED the Occupation and the settlements. What it needs is to actually work out a peace agreement both sides can live with.
Without that, no amount of settlements or IDF divisions in the West Bank are going to to any good.
shira
(30,109 posts)The real question is why do you support groups that deliberately lie and incite hate against the Jewish state?
It's impossible to support such hate and incitement and then claim to want peace, 2 states, etc.