Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumUsing stolen water to irrigate stolen land
Published July 16, 2016
Settlers are trying to spin water shortages as a problem that affects both Palestinians and Jews in the same manner. That couldnt be further from the truth.
By Dror Etkes
The recent reports on water crisis in Palestinian areas of the West Bank were accompanied by a story of another water shortage: this time in Israeli settlements. Lets get one thing straight there has never been a water shortage in the settlements. When settlers open up the tap at home or in their garden, the amount and quality of the water is identical to that which comes out in most homes to the west of the Green Line. Yes, there were several recent instances in which the water supply was cut off temporarily in a number of settlements (generally for a few hours), during which the authorities provided settlers water from water tanks. One can safely say that not a single settler was left thirsty.
Anyone who has had the opportunity to see how the settlers work the media will not be surprised that the issue made headlines. By exaggerating the water shortage, the settlers hope to achieve two complementary goals: neutralizing criticism of outright discrimination by the the state in everything having to do with the quantity of water sold to Palestinians (which makes up only a small percentage of water in the West Bank, the rest goes to West Bank settlements and Israel), while using the cynical and empty claim that the water shortage affects both Arabs and Jews.
The second goal is put pressure on right-wing politicians to approve budgets for establishing new water infrastructure, in order to meet the demand, which will likely skyrocket in the coming years assuming the number of settlers continues to grow at the current rate (five percent per year, twice as much as the population growth in Israel).
Continued @
http://972mag.com/using-stolen-water-to-irrigate-stolen-land/120653/
Related stories
A West Bank water crisis for Palestinians only By Stephanie Westbrook | November 22, 2014
Visualizing Occupation: Distribution of Water By +972 Resources | July 2, 2012
Israel is pulling the West Bank out from under Palestinian feet By Natasha Roth | September 11, 2015
shira
(30,109 posts)As with all attacks on Israel, the truth is much more complicated and, to a great extent, precisely the opposite of what the critics claim. When one examines the relevant data, it becomes clear that, under Israeli rule, the Palestinian water supply has become larger, more technologically sophisticated, of higher quality, and much easier to access; almost entirely due to Israeli efforts.
The truth is, most of the claims made against Israel on this issue are nothing but empty propaganda. They are based on claims that are simply untrue and/or based on a lack of basic knowledge of the topography of Israel and the West Bank. The latter in particular often creates total confusion in regard to everything connected to the legal issues surrounding West Bank water sources, and especially its important underground aquifers.
To avoid such confusion, this article is largely based on statistics published by the Israeli Water Authority, and research by Professor Haim Gvirtzman, a hydrologist from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Hopefully, it will give a much more accurate picture of one of the most contentious disputes in the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
MUCH, MUCH more...
http://www.thetower.org/article/the-myth-of-the-thirsty-palestinian/]
The PA considers water and waste as weapons against Israel, not as areas of cooperation.
It comes back again and again: The canard that Israel is denying West Bank Palestinians water rights negotiated under the Oslo Accords.
Haaretz returns to the issue every once in a while with stories about water supply disruptions in the Palestinian Authority, Israeli confiscation of Palestinian water tanks in the Jordan Valley, or Palestinian Water Authority reports about disproportionate water allocations to settlements.
You have to read the fine print to discover that illegal Palestinian tapping into Israels water lines and massive Palestinian water wastage are the causes of the problem. You have to study the issue in depth to discover that it is not Israeli occupation policy but Palestinian political resistance against joint water management and cooperation that is responsible for the slow development of the Palestinian water sector. The PA considers water and waste as weapons against Israel, not as areas of cooperation with Israel.
For too long, Israel has failed to respond in detail to Palestinian accusations of Israeli water apartheid which are ubiquitous in the UN and NGO world. Only recently has the civil administration and the Israel Water Authority, along with one of Israels top hydrologists, Prof. Haim Gvirtzman, begun to fight back with properly documented counterclaims.
The newly released studies show clearly that that Israel has fulfilled all of its obligations according to the agreements it signed in 1995 with the Palestinian Authority (and in fact has exceeded them), while the Palestinians are wasting tremendous amounts of water while refusing to utilize modern water conservation or sewage treatment methods.
In an exceptional study (http://besacenter.org/mideast-security- and-policy-studies/the-israelipalestinian- water-conflict-an-israeliperspective- 3-2/> published by the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies, Gvirtzman shows that large differences in per capita consumption of natural water between Jews and Arabs that existed in 1967, when the administration of Judea and Samaria was handed over from Jordan to Israel, have been reduced over the last 40 years and are now negligible.
MUCH more...
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Palestinian-lies-like-water-319582
Friday, June 17, 2016 at 12:00pm
False media reports turn burst pipe into viral meme with help of anti-Israel activists and journalists
...As I describe below, it didnt take very long for anti-Israel websites and bloggers to pounce on these stories, further spreading the lie. Within just a couple of days, thousandsperhaps even millionsof people were exposed to the nonsense via social media and reports aired on TV:
This is a classic case of how the medias coverage of Israel and the Palestinian territories often diverges into the farcical, offering ludicrous examples of shoddy reporting more akin to fiction writing than journalism.
...In a series of emailed responses it received from these agencies within less than 24 hours of the initial requests for information, UK Media Watch learned that the so-called water shutoff was only a burst pipe.
http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/06/another-anti-israel-water-libel-the-supposed-ramadan-water-cut-off/
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)would always tell me a story."
Seriously, though - you can't refute reality by posting fairy tales. We disagree sometimes on things that are open to interpretation, but in this case the facts are indisputable. This is a well researched subject, and all findings point to only one conclusion: The water shortage in the West Bank is due to Israeli restrictions only, and the settlers get much more than the local population.
shira
(30,109 posts)Remember? You can't define things the way you personally want to, nor can you create your own facts.
I'm not even sure we can agree on what an actual lie is. Because if we agreed on that, you'd have to acknowledge all the lies (incitement) against Israel and I don't believe you'd ever want to go there - knowing that the only explanation for such lies and incitement is pure unadulterated hate and bigotry.
=========
As to the OP, look at the 3rd article I cited in response (the burst pipe from June 2016). Every last nasty filthy racist BDS website loyal to Hamas made the same lying bullshit claim. Now explain to us here why they keep lying against Israel. Go on, give it a try... Explain how it's not hate incitement. Give it your best shot...
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)are all lying, and about exactly the same things to boot. Apart from them, there are more sources claiming the same thing as well; there is severe discrimination in allocation of water between Israel and the Palestinians.
I took a peek at your "evidence", and it doesn't correspond to the actual research and figures. It would be easier if your sources explained where their alternative figures come from, but I suppose it's difficult with imaginary numbers.
I'm sorry, I don't do fairy tales, but if you believe you've actually found something wrong with the links I've provided downthread, please let me know.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 16, 2016, 02:21 PM - Edit history (2)
...despite damning video evidence, so what's with this disbelief they would lie now?
As to water libel, just look at the 3rd link I provided above WRT the bogus allegation in June 2016 (last month) which turned out to be a broken pipe. The media went bonkers with that one and the lie went viral that Israel was intentionally denying water to Palestinians during Ramadan. An outright lie but this is the game being played against Israel. If you're incapable of acknowledging that particular lie just from a few weeks ago, then what's the point continuing?
And that's just the 3rd link. The first two show conclusively that the PA and Hamas lie and incite about water. But what do you expect from PA/Hamas leadership that praises, rewards, and celebrates the murder of Jews while using their own population as political pawns? The scandal is that other organizations like the UN, Amnesty, etc... all trust PA/Hamas claims, no matter how outlandish over Israeli claims. And that's without question bigoted since the PA/Hamas are openly committed to murdering Jews, Holocaust Denial, claiming Israel poisons water wells, has Zionist attack sharks and pigs who single out Palestinians, exports sex gum to Gazan males, has penis-shrinking rays it has used on Palestinian men, etc.. It's like trusting neo-Nazis over Jews in general which is absolutely disgusting.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: B'tselem, 10 Mar 2014
At present, Palestinians in the West Bank must purchase from Mekorot (Israels national water company) double the amount water specified in the accords, an amount that now equals about one third of available water in the West Bank.
In the absence of a final status arrangement, the Oslo Accords, meant to be valid only for five years, are still in place today. Yet even so, the measures set forth are only partially satisfied: while Israelis receive an unlimited water supply, Palestinians receive only about 75% of the stipulated quota. This situation is the result of several reasons, one being that under the temporary accords, Palestinians were to obtain some 118 mcm from independent drilling points, whereas in practice Palestinians yield only 73% of that amount. They fail to reach the designated amount due to technical limitations of their equipment, the particular properties of the aquifer and its water level, as well as the failure of U.S.- and German-aided attempts to drill for water in the aquifers eastern basin. As a result, Israel gets 86% of the aquifers water and the Palestinians only 14%. Even though Israels national water company Mekorot currently sells Palestinians 53 mcm of water a year twice the amount stipulated in the Oslo Accords it is a far cry from meeting demand.
Due to the inequitable distribution, Palestinians must make do with less water than Israelis. The World Health Organization and USAID both recommend a minimum of 100 liters of water per person/per day. This amount includes is not only for domestic use but includes supply to hospitals, schools, businesses, and other public institutions. Palestinian average daily consumption of water is about a third less than the recommended amount. The figures on water allocation make the discrimination between Israelis and Palestinians patently palpable:
Average water consumption in the West Bank for domestic, urban, and industrial purposes is approximately 73 liters per person/per day. In the northern West Bank average consumption is even lower. According to 2011 figures, a mere 38 liters in the Jenin area and 52 liters in the Tubas area.
Average water consumption in Israel is much higher. According to the Israeli Water Authority, average consumption is 183 liters per person/per day more than twice the corresponding consumption in the West Bank. The lack of water in certain areas of the West Bank is exacerbated by Palestinian farmers illegal tapping into pipes supplying water to Palestinian villages. This occurs primarily in Area C, where Israel is directly responsible for law enforcement.
Read more: http://www.btselem.org/water/discrimination_in_water_supply
ASSESSMENT OF RESTRICTIONS ON PALESTINIAN WATER SECTOR DEVELOPMENT
The World Bank, April 2009
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/WaterRestrictionsReport18Apr2009.pdf
The humanitarian impact of the takeover of Palestinian water springs by Israeli settlers
UNITED NATIONS Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, MarCH 2012
https://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_springs_factsheet_march_2012_english.pdf
"Troubled Waters Palestinians Denied Fair Access To Water" (Digest)
Source: Amnesty International
Read more:http://www.amnesty.eu/en/news/statements-reports/region/middle-east-gulf-states/troubled-waters--palestinians-denied-fair-access-to-water-digest-0420/#.V4oohfK6NWk
French Parliament Report Accuses Israel of Water 'Apartheid' in West Bank
Source: Haaretz, Jan 17, 2012
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/french-parliament-report-accuses-israel-of-water-apartheid-in-west-bank-1.407685
Water supply and sanitation in the Palestinian territories
Source: Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_Palestinian_territories#External_cooperation
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)She has now decided that Palestinians have no legimate grievances towards Netanyahu at all...that there is nothing but "hate incitement".
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The B'tselem lies story will need more fudging than usual, because the truth is that B'tselem doesn't lie. Anyone who believes that B'tselem lies is welcome to try to prove it.
shira
(30,109 posts)B'tselem claimed the vast majority of Palestinian deaths were civilian, not combatants - just like Hamas, the UN, and Amnesty originally claimed. Like more than 75% or 80% civilian casualties, remember?
The IDF claimed it was around 50/50 and a year later Hamas acknowledged those figures.
Hamas Admits 600-700 of Its Men Were Killed in Cast Lead
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead-1.323776
Of course, Amnesty, the UN and B'tselem never fixed their false numbers because of the propaganda value.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)of each other, the results must be false because the IDF says so?
2014 IsraelGaza conflict
Source: Wikipedia
Casualties and losses - Palestinian
(snip)
Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Palestinian
shira
(30,109 posts)Hamas acknowledged that the IDF figures were correct in that half of all casualties were combatants.
What part of the original lie of 75% civilian casualties are you pretending doesn't exist?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The Israeli numbers are bogus, and if you can find any factual investigation that refutes B'tselem or any other NGO on this issue, I would like to see it. Actually, if you've got anything that shows that B'tselem is untrustworthy, please show me...
shira
(30,109 posts)All of a sudden you don't trust Hamas? Why not? You trusted their original 75% bullshit.
Here's what the IDF based its numbers on...
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/18293
Call BS all you want. Hamas acknowledged it.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)If there was yet another impartial inquiry into civilian deaths in the 2014 Gaza war, it would report the same percentage (69-75%) again.
shira
(30,109 posts)You trust Hamas over the IDF.
Problem is Hamas agreed with the IDF a year later, so what do you say to that?
In an interview with the London-based Al-Hayat daily last Monday, however, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad detailed the heavy price his group had paid during the war.
"They say that it was the people who were harmed in the last war," said Hamad. "Are we not part of the people nation? On the first day of the war, Israel attacked the police command and killed 250 martyrs, from Hamas and other factions."
"This was in addition to the 200-300 members of the Al-Qassam Brigade (Hamas' military wing) and 150 security personnel," Hamad added. "The rest of the fatalities were from among the civilian population."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead-1.323776
Gee, Hamas' figure of 700 is pretty damned close to the IDF figure of 709. What a coincidence! Must be a Zionist conspiracy!
Your denial is ridiculous.
shira
(30,109 posts)Why do you trust Hamas over the IDF?
Do tell, please.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)As these statistics are correlated and compiled from several sources, including interviews, it would be pretty obvious if there were attempts to fudge the evidence.
As these NGOs are using the same methods to estimate casualties in other conflicts too, it would be reasonable to believe that they give more or less correct estimates. It's unlikely that every human rights NGO is using flawed methods in Gaza and in all other conflicts in the world. OTOH, the Israeli estimate is opaque and doesn't explain what methods and evidence that were used, which means they're impossible to verify. For me, impossible to verify equals bogus.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 21, 2016, 07:58 PM - Edit history (1)
Who are their goons in the field? Are they allowed to criticize Hamas? Come on...
Even interviews of Gazan civilians have to conform to Hamas standards. There's no such thing as freedom of speech and dissent in Gaza. The psychopaths in charge don't like when folks stray from the Hamas Kool-Aid, so those being interviewed know to say the "right" things against Israel. You know that...
My evidence is better than yours because Hamas confirmed IDF figures when there was no reason to do so. What's funny is you believe Hamas when it suits you...
In addition, there are plenty of examples where NGO's claimed civilian casualties even when those killed were actual combatants. How many examples do you need to acknowledge the NGO's were wrong about the percentage of civilians killed? One example? Five?
Let's not pretend NGO's like Amnesty, B'tselem, HRW, etc... don't lie. They've done so repeatedly WRT Hamas human shielding. I've shown you indisputable video evidence of it. There's even evidence Hamas forced civilians to remain in homes as human shields. I don't know why you'd deny that these NGO's are essentially pro-Hamas. Of course there's nothing wrong about being pro-Hamas, right?
shira
(30,109 posts)It's a shame because B'tselem can be a very good organization committed to making Israel better. It's a shame they're politically compromised supporters of Palestinian extremism.
A little background on B'tselem....
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/b_tselem/
On January 8, 2016, Israeli investigative news program Uvda featured an expose showing BTselem employee Nasser Nawaja and Ezra Nawi, a radical activist from the NGO Taayush, discussing informing the Palestinian Authority security services about a Palestinian man who allegedly intended to sell land to Jews in the West Bank. The sale of Palestinian land to Israelis is punishable by death under Palestinian law, and according to Nawi, suspects are tortured and then killed.
In 2014, journalist Tuvia Tenenbom published a book, Catch the Jew, in which he recounts a conversation with BTselem researcher Atef Abu a-Rub, who accused Germany of giving money to the Jews and then referred to the Holocaust as a lie.
Former CEO Jessica Montell has said: I think the word apartheid is useful for mobilizing people because of its emotional power. In some cases, the situation in the West Bank is worse than apartheid in South Africa.
In April 2010, staff member and NGO activist Lizi Sagie resigned after the organization came under pressure for statements made on her personal blog, including: The IDF Memorial Day is a pornographic circus of glorifying grief and silencing voices, Israel is committing Humanitys worst atrocities Israel is proving its devotion to Nazi values Israel exploits the Holocaust to reap international benefits.
That's pure hate.
I'm assuming that since they "criticize" Israel, then they can do no wrong in your opinion and all the above aren't big deals?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)that you would consider legitimate at all(other than possibly Kadima, an extinct party whose differences with Likud are too trivial to matter).
You're trying to anathemize EVERY dissident group in Israel or in solidarity with the Palestinian people. Every single one. There is none you aren't obsessed with discrediting.
What good does anathemizing dissent to? How is it ever wise to make a cynical, militaristic demagogue like Netanyahu essentially exempt from any critique? Has anything good come anywhere in world history, at any time, from people saying to a leader "we'll just follow you wherever you lead, no questions asked"?
Does that ever end up anywhere but seeing your army die of hypothermia in the Russian winter?
shira
(30,109 posts)What makes you believe anything productive will come from lies and hate incitement?
Why do you support organizations that purposely lie and deliberately vilify Israel? Cut the lies and incitement out, stick to legit criticism and these NGO's are more likely to sway Israeli opinion.
Peace will not naturally result from all this hatred and vitriol. Only more division, hatred, and bloodshed...
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)There are some hateful people on that side of the conflict(as there are an equal number of hateful people on the Israeli side), but to imply that "hatred" is the cause implies that Palestinians have no reason to feel anger towards the Israeli government...that it's all a big deal over nothing.
You know better than that.
There have been real injustices done to these people.
shira
(30,109 posts)Why do you support an organization that lies and incites hatred, pretending that because they "criticize" Israel they must be fabulous?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)what they've revealed.
B'tselem doesn't incite hatred. Nor do they advocate anything that would harm Israel or Israelis.
For that matter, nothing in the status quo on security is GOOD for Israel and Israelis.
What you are trying to do is obvious, shira:
You want everyone to the left of Kadima(and probably to the left of the right-wing of Kadima at that) to be labeled "anti-Israel".
Never mind that anathemizing everyone you want anathemized would leave Netanyahu completely unaccountable, since no group you approve of disagrees with him on any major issues and Kadima will never be popular as a party again.
Undoubtedly, you want Zionist Union, Meretz, and Peace Now anathemized as well.
shira
(30,109 posts)It doesn't get more clear than that as they claimed 70-80% civilian casualties based on Hamas figures. They trusted Hamas over the IDF until Hamas ultimately acknowledged a year later that IDF figures were correct (around 50%). And they never corrected their figures.
What's with this preference to the lies and incitement of anti-Israel racists and bigots?
Israeli
(4,289 posts)Amira Hass
Jun 22, 2016
Israeli spokespeople have three answers ready to pull out when they respond to questions on the water shortage in West Bank Palestinian towns which stands out starkly compared to the hydrological smugness of the settlements: 1) The Palestinian water system is old, so it suffers from water loss; 2) the Palestinians steal water from each other, and from the Israelis; and 3) in general, Israel has in its great generosity doubled the amount of water it supplies to the Palestinians, compared to what was called for in the Oslo Accords.
Supplies, the spokespeople will write in their responses. They will never say Israel sells the Palestinians 64 million cubic meters of water a year instead of the 31 million cubic meters agreed to in the Oslo Accords. Accords that were signed in 1994, and that were supposed to come to an end in 1999. They will not say that Israel sells the Palestinians water that it first stole from them.
Bravo for the demagogy. Bravo for the one-eighth portion of truth in the answer. Water is the only issue in which Israel (still) finds it difficult to defend its discriminatory, oppressive and destructive policy with pretexts of security and God. That is why it must blur and distort this basic fact: Israel controls the water sources. And being in control, it imposes a quota on the amount of water the Palestinians are allowed to produce and consume. On average, the Palestinians consume 73 liters per person per day. Below the recommended minimum. Israelis consume a daily 180 liters on average, and there are those who say even more. And here, unlike there, you will not find thousands who consume 20 liters a day. In the summer.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.726350
shira
(30,109 posts)A complete nutball.
Amira Hass stating Palestinians have a right to throw rocks (even at random Jews)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=38238
In this thread, she justifies rock throwing (which is incitement) even though rocks had just killed a baby. Amira also says she can't stand living among Jews:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=52491
Hass defending Hamas' rejection of a ceasefire...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=71356
Amira Hass defending Leftwing organizations that support the executions of Palestinians who sell land to Jews:
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.696592
Invoking the Protocols of the Elders of Zion:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113417963#post443
Israeli
(4,289 posts)Published on Jul 14, 2016
Since the beginning of June, Israel has cut water supply to Palestinian communities in the West Bank. Many homes do not have running water. Industry, vegetation and livestock in the area are in a state of collapse due to the situation. We went out to ask Israeli citizens what would they do if they had a limited supply of water?
See also :
http://972mag.com/watch-what-israelis-think-about-of-cutting-the-water-supply-to-palestinians/120654/
Related :
West Bank water crisis for Palestinians only
Palestinians in East Jerusalem go 10 months without water
WATCH: Palestinian village suffers from ongoing water shortage