Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumMondoweiss: Are comparisons of South African apartheid and Israel useful?
source: Mondoweiss, by Jon Soske and Sean Jacobs
The South African Nobel laureate J.M. Coetzee has a habit of speaking in rhetoricals. The effect, however, is that he makes his point quite clearly. This was the case recently at the Palestine Festival of Literature, which travels through Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. Speaking on the festivals last day, Coetzee noticed that naturally people ask me what I see of South Africa in the present situation in Palestine.
At first, Coetzee suggested that using the word apartheid to describe the occupation is not a productive step (it diverts one into an inflamed semantic wrangle which cuts short the opportunities of analysis). Coetzee then offered a definition of South African apartheid: Apartheid was a system of enforced segregation based on race or ethnicity, put in place by an exclusive, self defined group in order to consolidate colonial conquest particular to cement its hold on the land and natural resources. He continued, In Jerusalem and the West Bank we see a system of
and proceeded to read the same definition, ending to applause: Draw your own conclusions.
Although comparisons between Israel and South Africa stretch back to the early 1960s, the past decade has seen a growing recognition that Israels policies should be characterized as apartheid. The term apartheid (Afrikaans for separation or apartness) gained currency among Afrikaner racial theorists in the 1930s and became the basis of government policy with the election of the Nationalist Party in 1948, which coincides with the founding of Israel. Subsequent global campaigns and UN conventions declared apartheid a crime, and extended its meaning to contexts beyond southern Africa.
More recently, two separate debates have developed regarding the idea of Israeli apartheid. The first is a dispute about legal definitions: do Israeli actions in the occupied territories (or, in some formulations, the Israeli states policy toward the Palestinian population, including refugees and Palestinian Israelis) amount to apartheid under the relevant international treaties? When the official statements of the boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) campaign use the term, they are not making a direct analogy with the South African regime. They are arguing that Israeli policies should be condemned as the crime of apartheid under international law. The significance of this discussion is that the prohibition against apartheid is absolute under international law. In other words, a legal finding of apartheid would obligate the international community to end any aid that perpetuated the crime.
Read more: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/06/comparisons-african-apartheid/
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Apartheid Israel: The Politics of an Analogy - Paperback November 24, 2015
Source: Amazon
Contributors include Andy Clarno, Bill Freund, Mahmood Mamdani, Heidi Grunebaum, Shireen Hassim, Sean Jacobs, Robin D. G. Kelley, Arianna Lissoni, Achille Mbembe, Marissa Moorman, Jon Soske, T.J. Tallie, Salim Vally.
Read more: https://www.amazon.com/Apartheid-Israel-Politics-Sean-Jacobs/dp/1608465187
note: Yes, it's Mondoweiss (again) - however the subject of the OP is interesting...
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: Haymarket Books
In Apartheid Israel: The Politics of an Analogy, twenty scholars of Africa and its diaspora reflect on the similarities and differences between apartheid-era South Africa and contemporary Israel, with an eye to strengthening and broadening todays movement for justice in Palestine.
Contributors include Teresa Barnes, Andy Clarno, Bill Freund, Kelly Gillespie, Ran Greenstein, Heidi Grunebaum, Shireen Hassim, M Neelika Jayawardane, Robin D. G. Kelley, Melissa Levin, Arianna Lissoni, Mahmood Mamdani, Achille Mbembe, Marissa J. Moorman, Suren Pillay, Ishtiyaq Shukri, T. J. Tallie, and Salim Vally.
About the author
Jon Soske is an assistant professor of modern African history at McGill University and the co-editor of One Hundred Years of the ANC: Debating Liberation Histories Today
Sean Jacobs is an assistant professor of international affairs at the New School in New York City and the founder of the popular website Africa Is a Country.
Achille Mbembe is a research professor in history and politics at the University of the Witwatersrand, in Johannesburg, South Africa. He is also co-convenor of the Johannesburg Workshop in Theory and Criticism (JWTC) and a visiting professor at Duke University's Department of Romance Studies.
Reviews
"The occupation of Palestine is the biggest moral scandal of our times, one of the most dehumanizing ordeals of the century we have just entered, and the biggest act of cowardice of the last half-century. And since all they are willing to offer is a fight to the finish, since what they are willing to do is to go all the waycarnage, destruction, incremental exterminationthe time has come for global isolation."
Achille Mbembe, from the foreword
Read more: http://www.haymarketbooks.org/pb/Apartheid-Israel
Edit: Edit: A slighty different version than the paperback book can be found here:
Apartheid Israel: The Politics of an Analogy Ebook
https://africaisacountry.atavist.com/apartheidanalogy
shira
(30,109 posts)......as people within the W.Bank.
The argument is a load of shit and nothing but Jew-baiting incitement; presumably one race/ethnicity (Jews) is committing apartheid against another race/ethnicity (Arab Palestinians).
Tell that to Israeli Arabs within the W.Bank or Palestinian citizens of Israel in E.Jerusalem, or those with permanent residency status whoare of the same race/ethnicity. I'm sure they'd be surprised to hear they're part of the problem whenever they're in the W.Bank (either as soldiers, visitors, workers, college students, or residents within settlements).
So within the W.Bank, Israel treats Israeli Arab citizens and Palestinians with permanent residency status one way and NON-citizens another way. Being that there is no such thing as Apartheid based on citizenship, this charge is complete bullshit.
The aim of those who slander & incite hate against Israel and Jews is destruction, not peace.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)wasn't discriminatory as there were black freedmen, which would mean that slavery had nothing to do with ethnicity - the slaves were Non-citizens.
Logically, there should be only one legal system for all civilians in the occupied territories, just like everywhere else. The principle that everyone is equal before the law is important.
shira
(30,109 posts)...who are treated differently than citizens but no one likens them to slaves. Every country on the planet treats non-citizens differently than their own. There is no such thing as Apartheid against non-citizens. The situation in the W.Bank is called Occupation, not Apartheid. Heck, almost all Palestinians in the W.Bank are under the authority of the PA where they can vote & have equally shitty rights. That's technically not an Occupation and it's definitely not Apartheid either. The world signed on at Oslo to give the PA its authority over almost all Palestinians in the W.Bank.
Fail.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)military jurisdiction for Palestinians and civilian jurisdiction for everyone else.
An illegal immigrant killing someone in New York goes in front of the same judge in the same court as if he were legally American.
You fail - and we haven't even begun discussing the arguments in the OP yet...
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:45 PM - Edit history (2)
And once again, the PA governs nearly all Palestinians in the W.Bank. They have their own system of government, their own courts, media, schools, etc. The people there vote when there's an election. Same as Gaza.
So what are we talking about here? Maybe 2-3% of all Palestinians within the W.Bank and Gaza who are under occupation and suffering under "apartheid"?
Tell me honestly - is there Israeli Apartheid going on in Gaza too? If not, why not?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)because in the old days, blacks were not South African citizens, they were citizens of their respective homelands.
And in any occupied territories, all civilians are under the local jurisdiction of the occupied country.
There can't be two legal systems - it's against international law.
shira
(30,109 posts)So what are we talking about here? Maybe 2-3% of all Palestinians within the W.Bank and Gaza who are under occupation and suffering under "apartheid" due to living among Israelis?
Tell me honestly - is there Israeli Apartheid going on in Gaza too? If not, why not?
ETA: The bold print above.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)and technically, all PA decisions are pending IDF approval. If the IDF wants, they can disband the PA anytime. The Palestinians have no more rights than any other civilian population under occupation, which means that they have no civil rights whatsoever. In most wars, this is just a temporary measure, but Israel has continued the occupation for almost 50 years.
I'm not sure where you get your numbers from, but there are currently around 600 000 Israeli Jewish settlers living among the local Palestinian population in the occupied territories - that's quite a crowd...
shira
(30,109 posts)...over its anti-Israel policies & actions. No control over PA leaders like Abbas, no control over their media, their schools, and other gov't institutions. Israel can't stop the PA from declaring statehood at the UN. Your allegation is absurd.
To prove how absurd it is, the PA cannot apply for statehood at the UN or get it approved and recognized as such without being in effective control of their territory. If Israel has control, the PA has no case for declaring statehood.
As to 3-5% of the Palestinian population in area C, that's a fact. Check out demographics in area C vs. that of areas A, B and Gaza. The settler population has nothing to do with this. The point is that only 3-5% of Palestinians within Gaza and the W.Bank live under your alleged "apartheid" scenario & they live in area C. I brought this up in another post I just wrote to you, letting you know this is your best argument for Apartheid - even if it is only 3-5%. I then showed how that's not Apartheid either.
Response to Little Tich (Reply #11)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: Wikipedia
Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kathryn_Steinle
I'm not really sure where you're going with this...
King_David
(14,851 posts)Will not read that bigoted vanity site.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: allAfrica
The South African Nobel laureate J.M. Coetzee has a habit of speaking in rhetoricals. The effect, however, is that he makes his point quite clearly. This was the case recently at the Palestine Festival of Literature, which travels through Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. Speaking on the festival's last day, Coetzee noticed that "naturally people ask me what I see of South Africa in the present situation in Palestine."
At first, Coetzee suggested that using the word apartheid to describe the occupation is not a productive step ("it diverts one into an inflamed semantic wrangle which cuts short the opportunities of analysis" . Coetzee then offered a definition of South African apartheid: "Apartheid was a system of enforced segregation based on race or ethnicity, put in place by an exclusive, self defined group in order to consolidate colonial conquest particular to cement its hold on the land and natural resources." He continued, "In Jerusalem and the West Bank we see a system of ... " and proceeded to read the same definition, ending to applause: "Draw your own conclusions."
Although comparisons between Israel and South Africa stretch back to the early 1960s, the past decade has seen a growing recognition that Israel's policies should be characterised as apartheid. The term apartheid (Afrikaans for separation or apartness) gained currency among Afrikaner racial theorists in the 1930s and became the basis of government policy with the election of the Nationalist Party in 1948, which coincides with the founding of Israel. Subsequent global campaigns and UN conventions declared apartheid a crime, and extended its meaning to contexts beyond southern Africa.
More recently, two separate debates have developed regarding the idea of Israeli apartheid. The first is a dispute about legal definitions: Do Israeli actions in the occupied territories (or, in some formulations, the Israeli state's policy toward the Palestinian population, including refugees and Palestinian Israelis) amount to apartheid under the relevant international treaties? When the official statements of the boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) campaign use the term, they are not making a direct analogy with the South African regime. They are arguing that Israeli policies should be condemned as the crime of apartheid under international law. The significance of this discussion is that the prohibition against apartheid is absolute under international law. In other words, a legal finding of apartheid would obligate the international community to end any aid that perpetuated the crime.
Read more: http://allafrica.com/stories/201606150776.html
Same shit, different package...
shira
(30,109 posts)In fact, I never see anyone in the anti-Israel camp fully engaging in any arguments about I/P.
They're liars who incite hate and know they can't justify their bullshit. They don't even try to defend their bigoted views as they just move on to another libel once they're exposed.
Fozzledick
(3,890 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)History proves there are more than enough Jew haters or would-be Jew haters to incite.
Mondoweiss is aiming for the degenerates & those who can be easily duped.
Fortunately, people don't like being lied to & they resent that. Show how the defamers of Israel lie (which is pretty easy) and it's game over for those cretins.
shira
(30,109 posts)You know that's a damned lie, but that's all BDS is about.
The Mondoweiss position is that Israel (not just the territories) is Apartheid. Note that Mondoweiss is a very BIG, BIG part of the BDS movement. But they lie and incite....
Why don't you feel any shame sharing articles that are deceptive & serve no purpose other than to incite baseless hatred? Anyone who has to deliberately lie and slander a nation of people - over and over again - wants destruction & war, not peace.
You're on the wrong side of history. Thousands of years show that enemies of the Jews are on the wrong side of history & this situation is no different.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It describes some of the legal discrimination against Israeli Arabs and points out that Israeli Arabs have at the same basic civil rights. The OP doesn't follow through with a conclusion whether it's actually Apartheid or not:
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If I thought that the OP was inciting baseless hatred, I wouldn't have posted it. It does explain the grounds for the Apartheid analogy, and the reason why there's a lot of criticism of Israel. If it can be proven that Israeli Arabs and Palestinians living in the occupied territories aren't discriminated against in any way, then the Apartheid analogy is bogus. However, as there are numerous laws discriminating against Israeli Arabs, and the Palestinians in the occupied territories have no civil rights whatsoever, it could be difficult to prove that there's no discrimination going on...
shira
(30,109 posts)In response to Israeli Arabs possessing civil rights (cited as refutation of the claim Israel is Apartheid) he says that's a deceptive claim. That's in the first 3 lines of the 2nd paragraph you quoted. What's deceptive? That proves there's no Apartheid within Israel. But the authors don't agree with that. They've written at least one book on the subject. Find where they state clearly there is NO APARTHEID within Israel, or just concede the argument.
The authors blew it when they gave a definition of Apartheid...
1. It's not based on race & ethnicity. Rights are based SOLELY on citizenship & you know that. In fact, you don't even attempt to refute that because it's so flipping obvious.
2. What's this exclusive self defined group consolidating colonial conquest? Jews? No, it's Israel with a 20% Arab population. The same ethnicity as Palestinians in the W.Bank. Jews also aren't colonists. They're indigenous to Israel, Judea, Samaria, Gaza..
3. The last part is the best because Israel is not trying to cement its hold on the land & natural resources. They've recognized Palestinian aspirations for their own land and have offered to hand over all that territory to the PA several times for their own state - free of Occupation and Settlements. Free of alleged "apartheid". It's the Palestinians who feel their situation now is preferable to having their own state free of Occupation, settlements, "apartheid". The PA & Hamas perpetuates the situation, not Israel. No other oppressed people on the planet would keep saying "NO" to their own state or "NO" to ending oppression against them. You know that.
This Apartheid slander is nothing but lies and incitement.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:04 AM - Edit history (2)
amounts to Apartheid.
It merely presents argument for and against the analogy. I think your interpretation is too fanciful.
shira
(30,109 posts)To get this moving, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about Soske and Jacobs.
Here's what you avoided regarding the definition of Apartheid. I'd appreciate some honesty:
...The authors blew it when they gave a definition of Apartheid...Apartheid was a system of enforced segregation based on race or ethnicity, put in place by an exclusive, self defined group in order to consolidate colonial conquest particular to cement its hold on the land and natural resources.
1. It's not based on race & ethnicity. Rights are based SOLELY on citizenship & you know that. In fact, you don't even attempt to refute that because it's so flipping obvious.
2. What's this exclusive self defined group consolidating colonial conquest? Jews? No, it's Israel with a 20% Arab population. The same ethnicity as Palestinians in the W.Bank. Palestinian Israelis are part of that "self-defined group". Jews also aren't colonists. They're indigenous to Israel, Judea, Samaria, Gaza..
3. The last part is the best because Israel is not trying to cement its hold on the land & natural resources. They've recognized Palestinian aspirations for their own land and have offered to hand over all that territory to the PA several times for their own state - free of Occupation and Settlements. Free of alleged "apartheid". It's the Palestinians (and you too) who feel their situation right now (as awful as you portray it) is preferable to having their own state free of Occupation, settlements, "apartheid". The PA & Hamas (as well as their western fanbase) perpetuates the situation, not Israel. They would keep saying no to every Israeli offer going back to 2000-01 through 2008. No other oppressed people on the planet would keep saying "NO" to their own state or "NO" to ending oppression against them. You know that. It's you and them who prefer "apartheid" to the PA accepting any of Israel's offers that would have granted them their own state w/o Occupation and Settlements.
This Apartheid slander is nothing but lies and incitement.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The OP is trying to frame the the arguments for and against the Apartheid analogy, not to provide a definite conclusion. The definition of Apartheid is only an example, the OP doesn't really bother that much with presenting a definition of Apartheid.
Frankly, I don't have a good description of what Apartheid is either - the UN definition is too dependent on Apartheid South Africa to be of any real use. I would define Apartheid loosely as one group of civilians lacking civil rights while another group has them. I don't see ethnicity as a necessary factor, it's the lack of civil rights when others have them that's the main issue.
I hope you understand that I'm not impressed when you make up your own version of the arguments in the OP and then refute them.
shira
(30,109 posts)...then you have nothing to prove there's Apartheid in Israel.
Frankly, I don't have a good description of what Apartheid is either - the UN definition is too dependent on Apartheid South Africa to be of any real use. I would define Apartheid loosely as one group of civilians lacking civil rights while another group has them. I don't see ethnicity as a necessary factor, it's the lack of civil rights when others have them that's the main issue.
I hope you understand that I'm not impressed when you make up your own version of the arguments in the OP and then refute them.
Little Tich doesn't get to define Apartheid.
Or what constitutes Antisemitism for that matter.
BTW, that's why neither you or the BDS ass-hats are taken seriously by the Western world.
QED.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)simply state that only one very strict (and secret?) definition is the only one allowed.
It seems as if according to you, there's no discrimination whatsoever in the occupied territories or in Israel. But then again, it seems as if according to your definition, slavery in the antebellum South or Apartheid in South Africa wasn't Apartheid either.
Your definition of Apartheid (or rather what it's not) prevents you from discussing both pros and cons of the Apartheid analogy arguments in the OP. I'm beginning to lose interest.
shira
(30,109 posts)You know that.
As to discrimination and slavery.....yes there is discrimination in Israel & within the territories but there's discrimination everywhere on this planet. Discrimination is not Apartheid. You know that too.
I have no idea why you bring up slavery b/c that's not happening either.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:05 PM - Edit history (1)
The only people who defend his rants as not being antisemitic are Jew hating antisemites like the FreeGaza movement or Alison Weir. Now you...
You're the only one with a unique definition of antisemitism. So unique that practically anything goes when ripping into Jews.
I'll remind you again that the EUMC working definition of antisemitism has been accepted by all Western liberal democracies. The only nations opposing them are facist or totalitarian oppressive countries with the worst human rights records against their people. It turns out Jews are people, with human rights. That's why the EUMC definition is accepted as authoritative by the nations that matter.
You can't even agree that when the PA or Hamas incites hate and calls for murdering Jews (not to mention praising the killers and paying them or their families) is antisemitism. It says more about you that you can't call THAT kind of neo-naziism antisemitism. The nazis did that. They called for the mass killing of Jews. They acted on it, just like Hamas & the PA do. They incited genocidal hatred just like the PA and Hamas does daily.
You must think highly of yourself. So highly in fact that only you know how to properly define Anti-Semitism & now Apartheid.
Do you see now why I believe these positions of yours - and those of BDS - are hateful? Definitions and meanings of words are twisted and mangled to such an extent (colonialism included) that they constitute lies. People who deliberately lie on purpose over and over again vs. an ethnicity or race are considered to be bigots who incite hatred with their intentional lies & slander. There is no other reason for the lies other than hatred.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:54 AM - Edit history (4)
In areas A and B the PA is in control.
We both know there's ZERO apartheid in Gaza. I don't think anyone claims that either.
The PA gov't is recognized by the world - especially in the UN - as a separate state, not as a bantustan.
Meaning that unlike bantustans, the PA government & territories is recognized as legitimate by the world.
The PA is responsible for law and order, runs government institutions, the media, schools...
No apartheid.
You have no case.
Now in area C, that's where there are both settlers (consisting of both Israeli Jews and Arabs) and Palestinians.
Two rules for 2 people, right? Okay, that's your best argument.
But, that situation only applies to 3-5% of all Palestinians in Gaza & the W.Bank.
Still, that's apartheid right? Even if it's 3-5%....?
Wrong. The PA agreed to that situation at Oslo. So did the EU, the USA, and the UN.
Why would the UN, EU, USA, and the PA agree to a situation of Apartheid? Well, it's not Apartheid - that's why.
The Oslo accords are still recognized as legitimate to this day, otherwise Oslo would be unrecognized & viewed as pro-Apartheid.
QED.
Now please stop with the lies about Apartheid. You have no case.
Israeli
(4,289 posts)Well in a way Little Tich............it led to this :
http://tv.social.org.il/en/first-truth-commission-in-israel
A "Truth Commission", inspired by the Truth and Reconciliation commissions held in South Africa to end apartheid, was held in Beersheba Recently (12/10/2014). In the event, Palestinians and Jews presented testimony from 1948 to a committee that included representatives from the two nations. First Truth Commission in Israel The main idea of the truth commission is to uncover the truth about injustices, in this case - the Nakba in the belief that taking responsibility is a necessary . basis for reconciliation and peace. The event was organized by Zochrot.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Israeli
(4,289 posts)Sure .....http://zochrot.org/en/keyword/45328
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Little Tich
(6,171 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)The only reason for that article is due to hatred of the Jewish people.
There is no other logical reason.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: Haaretz, Jun 05, 2016
The Jerusalem Day flag march in the Muslim Quarter of the Old City took off in relative calm on Sunday evening, following earlier concerns of friction between Jewish revelers and local Arab residents.
No altercations were reported, and a few Muslim-owned shops on Hagai Street, a main thoroughfare in the Old City, remained opened.
However, a few participants were heard shouting chants such as "the Temple will be built, the [Al-Aqsa] mosque will be burned," and "Mohammed is dead."
Participants in the flag march arrived at the march's starting point early evening on Sunday, a few hours after attempts to reroute the marchers away from the Old City's Muslim Quarter in a bid to lower tensions failed.
Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.723230
A reliable news source like Haaretz reports that the march was relatively calm. I'll go with Haaretz on this. Whether Mondoweiss or Avi Mayer is right when it comes to the translation of the Hebrew in the Mondoweiss clip is something I can't say. However, the marchers are all a bunch of racists, similar to PEGIDA in Germany. But Germany doesn't fund racist demonstrations like Israel does:
Netanyahu's Office a Big Funder of Controversial Jerusalem Day Flag March
Source: Haaretz, Jun 05, 2016
Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.723196
shira
(30,109 posts)Why don't you ask her to confirm either way?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It's no biggie for me - I'm alright with the Haaretz coverage...
Israeli
(4,289 posts)I agree with Avi Mayer regarding the translation shira ....there are a few mistakes .