Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPentagon adopts Israeli tactic in bombing ISIS
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/26/politics/u-s-uses-israeli-tactic-isis-bombing/index.htmlIsraeli forces have widely used the so-called knock-on-the-roof operations in Gaza attacks in recent years to try to get civilians out before they are hit.
The first public revelation of the U.S. using a "knock operation" came Tuesday at a press briefing by Air Force Maj. Gen. Peter E. Gersten, deputy commander for operations and intelligence for the anti-ISIS Operation Inherent Resolve.
So much for lack of humanity in Gaza, Israel critics.
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Warpy
(113,130 posts)There's not enough time between them for people to grab anything--like their kids--and manage to escape.
shira
(30,109 posts)This fakery is par for the course for Israel hating Zombies.
Check out the smoke at about 21 seconds and no smoke at around 22 seconds in.
Maximize your screen to see it better in the top right corner.
You're not the first to fall for it, and you won't be the last either.
Warpy
(113,130 posts)This one, not so much.
shira
(30,109 posts)Explain that one.
It's fakery. But what can you expect from Islamic Jihad/Hamas TV?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)
These "knock operations" don't save civilian lives, but it's a good excuse for bombing houses and killing the civilians you know are inside.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's how Israel's ratio of civilians to combatants killed is better than any other Western country.
Hence, the US adopting Israel's strategies.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)homes may disagree with you.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's because of tactics like these.
Military experts from around the world concluded Israel exceeded standards regarding civilian safety, often putting the lives of their own civilians and soldiers in danger in order to protect Palestinians.
==============
Save your compassion abuse and concern. Try that crap with someone else.
No one supporting BDS cares about Palestinian lives.
Nor do they allow for Israel to protect its own civilians.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The widespread destruction of civilian property and the killing of civilians in or in close proximity to their homes indicate that war crimes may have been committed.
JUSTICE FOR VICTIMS OF WAR CRIMES IN GAZA CONFLICT
Amnesty International, June 2015
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2015/07/justice-victims-war-crimes-gaza-conflict/
UN Commission Finds Evidence of War Crimes by Israel, Hamas During 2014 Gaza War
Haaretz, 22.06.2015
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.662389
U.N. Report on Gaza Finds Evidence of War Crimes by Israel and by Palestinian Militants
New York Times, JUNE 22, 2015
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-report.html?_r=0
UN Gaza war crimes report may bolster Palestinians’ ICC case, experts say
Al Jazeera, June 22, 2015
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/22/un-gaza-war-crimes-report-may-bolster-icc-case.html
shira
(30,109 posts)http://unitedwithisrael.org/israels-military-accused-of-being-too-careful-to-avoid-civilian-casualties-in-gaza-war/
The Israeli army is being faulted by international military experts for setting a dangerous precedent and high standard that other armies cannot meet.
New research into the IDF’s actions during Operation Protective Edge in Gaza reveals that the army was outstandingly sensitive when it came to warning citizens of pending attacks on terror targets in their vicinity.
The Weekly Standard published a feature on the IDF’s international law unit, describing the lengths to which the IDF and its legal division went in order to avoid civilian casualties when carrying out airstrikes on confirmed terror targets.
“The IDF may, variously, gather detailed intelligence on who lives in the building; call or text those who reside in a particular building with a warning that a strike is coming; drop Arabic-language leaflets over the area warning residents; fly a drone with sophisticated surveillance cameras overhead as an extra set of eyes to make sure the civilians have vacated; drop a small charge on the roof that shakes the building as a final warning signal that a strike is coming; and employ a highly precise and carefully chosen weapon system which, IDF lawyers and commanders hoped, would destroy only the weapons cache [or other terror targets] but not surrounding rooms,” the feature explains.
“It was abundantly clear that IDF commanders had gone beyond any mandates that international law requires to avoid civilian casualties,” Willy Stern, a professor at Vanderbilt Law School, writes.
The IDF command running the campaign in Gaza was ultra-sensitive, and “although most strikes were carried out without harm to innocent bystanders, IDF field commanders nixed other approved strikes in Gaza, despite these multiple layers of precautions to prevent civilian casualties.”
“There is no symmetry in international law,” states Lt. Col. Robert Noyfield, the Dabla [Hebrew acronym for international law division] attorney in charge of targeting. “We do it out of moral obligation; we do it for ourselves. We are a democratic country that abides by the rule of law. By doing so, of course, we also hope to avoid criticism from the international community. How can we be faulted when abiding by the law?”
Experts: IDF Sympathies Set Dangerous Precedent
The IDF has actually been criticized for its over-sensitivity. Stern, in the article, quotes Wolff Heintschel von Heinegg, a distinguished expert on military law at European University Viadrina in Frankfurt, as saying that the IDF takes “many more precautions than are required…it is setting an unreasonable precedent for other democratic countries of the world who may also be fighting in asymmetric wars against brutal non-state actors who abuse these laws.”
Michael Schmitt, director of the Stockton Center for the Study for International Law at the US Naval War College, agrees that the IDF is creating a dangerous precedent that could harm the West in its fight against terrorism.
“The IDF’s warnings certainly go beyond what the law requires, but they also sometimes go beyond what would be operational good sense elsewhere,” he warned. “People are going to start thinking that the United States and other Western democracies should follow the same examples in different types of conflict. That’s a real risk,” said Schmitt.
[font color = "red"]Stern then quotes a report from the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), who reviewed Israel’s conduct in the fighting last summer. The report noted that “contrary to accusations of widespread unlawful military conduct, we observed that Israel systemically applied established rules of conduct that adhered to or exceeded the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) in a virtually unprecedented effort to avoid inflicting civilian casualties, even when doing so would have been lawfully permitted, and to satisfy the concerns of critics. However, it is the conclusion of this Task Force that Israel’s military restraint unintentionally empowered Hamas to distort both the law and facts for their own purposes to the ultimate detriment of civilians’ safety, for which Hamas bears sole responsibility.”
6chars
(3,967 posts)But if they did not do these warnings there would also be criticism. Lesson: ignore the critics.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The article from United With Israel failed to convince me. No Kool-Aid for me today.
shira
(30,109 posts)That's a joke, but maybe that's really your idea of human rights. If so, that's pathetic.
As for Amnesty Int'l, they chose anti-semitism as the one hatred they won't devote any time or resources into. They denied Hamas human shielding & use of child combatants in their wars vs. Israel despite video evidence proving it. Nothing about how Hamas oppresses women & gays or exploits children digging tunnels at slave wages. Amnesty has sponsored events headlining holocaust deniers & supporters of Hamas & al-Qaeda.
Not to mention Amnesty lies about Israeli organ harvesting (killing Palestinians for their organs) and accusing Israel of planting knives on Palestinian terrorists.
Remember though - we've had this conversation before. There's absolutely no amount of evidence anyone can bring for you to condemn Amnesty, since you believe they're perfect. Kinda like Catholics who believe all Priests are perfect and can never be child molesters.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)country but Israel.
It's not possible for the occupier to change any names or the status quo. Until the occupation is ended, the Western Wall Plaza will still officially be al-Buraq Plaza and the Temple mount will be al-Haram al-Sharif. Hopefully, the French peace initiative will get some traction, and a solution to the I/P conflict can be found. UNESCO made the right call.
The bigger issue is about what sources we trust, and I don't think that propaganda in the form of hasbara can be compared with the professional fact gathering and analysis of neutral NGOs and the UN. It doesn't make sense that Amnesty is a veritable viper's nest of anti-Semites.
We're very far from each other when it comes to what we accept as reliable sources.
shira
(30,109 posts)....to the Temple Mount area. This isn't about Israel/Palestine, but Jews/Muslims. Jews have zero connection to what they consider (the past 3500 years) the holiest area on earth.
In their latest resolution, UNESCO accused Israel of planting "fake graves" in E.Jerusalem.
These graves were desecrated and tombstones used to pave roads by Jordan between 1948-67.
Supporting UNESCO's decision is to support a form of racism.
I figured you'd yawn at the UN human rights commission having more oppressive, rights abusing, Jew hating regimes on its council (S.Arabia, UAE, Cuba, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Russia, China) than free nations. They vote against the Jews constantly in order to shield themselves.
Your idea of human rights and anti-racism, correct?
You support that?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I couldn't find the actual resolution online, so it's all secondary sources and few actual details. Do you have more info?
I personally think it's wrong to disturb graves in any way, and using Jewish tombstones to pave roads has a certain connotation. But I'm not sure what's going on in this case, so I'll withhold judgement until I know more.
Response to Little Tich (Reply #22)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The Custodian of the Holy Sites of Jerusalem shouldn't destroy Jewish graves on the Mount of Olives.
shira
(30,109 posts)This is where you acknowledge UNESCO really is racist...
14. Calls on Israel, the Occupying Power, to stop violations against the Waqf properties east and
south of Al-Aqsa Mosque/Al-Haram Al-Sharif, such as the recent confiscations of parts of AlYoussefeyah
cemetery and Al-Sawanah area by banning Muslims from burying their dead in
some spaces and by planting Jewish fake graves in other spaces of the Muslim cemeteries,
in addition to the dramatic change of the status and distinctive character of the Umayyad
Palaces, in particular the violation of the continued conversion of many Islamic and
Byzantine remains into the so-called Jewish ritual baths or into Jewish prayer places;
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I've seen.
I suppose it's got something to do with Israel trying to change the status quo on the Temple Mount and the ensuing Palestinian protests and violence.
I still don't really know enough about the "planting Jewish fake graves in other spaces of the Muslim cemeteries" to have a valid opinion, but hopefully we'll know more about it soon.
shira
(30,109 posts)Israel trying to change the status quo on the Temple Mount?
Where's your evidence of this? There are some nuts out there on the Mount stirring up trouble, but that's not the Israeli government. In fact, Israel is doing more to prevent nuts from doing their thing. And there is no such thing as Jews planting fake graves in E.Jerusalem. The reason you haven't heard of it is because it's BS.
============
But once again, like clockwork, you're defending bigotry and hatred against Jews.
UNESCO's resolution is anti-Jewish, not anti-Israel. What UNESCO is doing is trying to deny Jews have indigenous rights to their homeland while maintaining that only Palestinians are indigenous.
It's unreal the lengths & the pretzel twisting you go through to defend anti-Jewish bigotry.
shira
(30,109 posts)You should stop trying to defend Hamas from their war crimes:
shira
(30,109 posts)....it's about time someone breaks the silence by Amnesty and the UN.
Don't you think?
Why are they denying clear Hamas war crimes? Why are they defenders of Hamas?
Is that your idea of human rights?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It's clearly fired from a civilian area, fortunately it didn't seem to cause any casualties, and Israel didn't respond. It's clearly in breach of international humanitarian law to launch attacks from civilian areas. Had Israel bombed the area and caused civilian casualties it would have been a war crime of course, as Israel is obligated to protect civilians from harm. Besides, as the rocket crew is using the "fire and run like hell tactic" there's no military advantage for the IDF to attack, as the only possible casualties would be civilians.
However, Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on Earth, and by definition, all military actions by Hamas or the IDF are done in close proximity to civilians and civilian infrastructure. Any action that results in civilian casualties is potentially a war crime. Hopefully, the ICC will investigate this matter thoroughly, and if war crimes were committed, the guilty will have to answer for their crimes.
The other two clips are without context, and it's reasonable to believe that the UN, HRW and Amnesty International has taken the context into consideration when they say that there's no evidence of the intentional use of human shields.
shira
(30,109 posts)....and hiding out in bunkers under hospitals. And storing missiles & firing from UN school buildings and yards.
Amnesty lied, right?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)To stir the pot, I'll also provide some examples of the use of human shields in Gaza:
Wikipedia: Human Shield
(snip)
The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008-2009 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family claimed that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israel
Response to Little Tich (Reply #37)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)opinion and I disagree.
But do think that it would be worthwhile for the ICC to investigate what happened in Gaza? After all, both sides are accusing the other of causing a lot of civilian casualties. War crimes have probably been committed, regardless of which side is responsible...
shira
(30,109 posts)....according to Wikipedia and the Red Cross definition.
Amnesty totally denied it, proving what a farce they are:
Now honestly, do you believe Amnesty?
Here's the ICRC definition of human shielding:
State practice establishes this rule as a norm of customary international law applicable in both international and non-international armed conflicts.
International and non-international armed conflicts
In the context of international armed conflicts, this rule is set forth in the Third Geneva Convention (with respect to prisoners of war), the Fourth Geneva Convention (with respect to protected civilians) and Additional Protocol I (with respect to civilians in general).[1] Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts.[2]
...The prohibition of using human shields in the Geneva Conventions, Additional Protocol I and the Statute of the International Criminal Court are couched in terms of using the presence (or movements) of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points or areas (or military forces) immune from military operations.[18]
...It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons hors de combat with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives.
There's no question Hamas does that and Amnesty is defending Hamas to the hilt.
Now be honest, what's your explanation here?
No bullshit, okay?
Response to Little Tich (Reply #8)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Amnesty, 25 July 2014
(snip)
Amnesty International is monitoring and investigating such reports, but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks. In previous conflicts Amnesty International has documented that Palestinian armed groups have stored munitions in and fired indiscriminate rockets from residential areas in the Gaza Strip in violation of international humanitarian law. Reports have also emerged during the current conflict of Hamas urging residents to ignore Israeli warnings to evacuate. However, these calls may have been motivated by a desire to minimize panic and displacement, in any case, such statements are not the same as directing specific civilians to remain in their homes as “human shields” for fighters, munitions, or military equipment. Under international humanitarian law even if “human shields” are being used Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.
Source: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/israelgaza-conflict-questions-and-answers/
Wikipedia: Human Shield
During the 2014 Gaza War
(snip)
Hamas Arabic-speaking spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri called up Gaza civilians on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV July 8, 2014 to stay put in areas under fire by Israel, prompting accusations from Israel and others — the European Union, for example — that Hamas was calling on people to volunteer as "in effect human shields". For Amnesty International, however, Hamas' call may have been "motivated by a desire to avoid further panic" among civilians, considering both the lack of shelters in Gaza and the fact that some civilians who heeded the IDF's warnings had been casualties of Israeli attacks. According to Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas is using human shields and rejoices in the effectiveness of the tactic, believing it as a necessary and valid means of resistance.
The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay accused Hamas militants of violating international humanitarian law by "locating rockets within schools and hospitals, or even launching these rockets from densely populated areas."[63] The US Deputy National Security Adviser and the European Union condemned Hamas for using human shields. Several news outlets reported on rockets being placed near their hotels, including France24, Australia’s Channel Nine, and Russia Today. Several journalists who alleged Hamas use of human shields and rocket locations close to civilian infrastructure reported being threatened by Hamas, including Janis Mackey Frayer of Canada's CTV, who reported seeing a Hamas gunman dressed in a woman's headscarf with a "tip of a gun poked out from under cloak.”
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
Response to Little Tich (Reply #14)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Here's Hamas admitting it:
Here are Journalists reporting it (at great risk to themselves):
Hamas leaders hiding under a Hospital.
Rockets fired from hospitals.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113472763
Or the UN reporting Hamas stored rockets in UN schools, firing from UN schools, with children there...
http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2015/04/27/confirmed-un-admits-palestinians-stored-rockets-in-unrwa-schools-and-highly-likely-used-school-premises-to-launch-attacks/
And last, here's Hamas ordering its civilians to die and to ignore Israeli notices to evacuate...
King_David
(14,851 posts)Shows you , when it's not Jews involved it's considered "humanitarian "
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)
no_hypocrisy
(48,778 posts)They would prevent civilians from leaving the building.
King_David
(14,851 posts)no_hypocrisy
(48,778 posts)My point: the strategy fails to take the modus operandi of ISIS/Hamas into consideration when it assumes that a warning bomb would save lives.