Bernie Sanders’ Candor on Israel Shows American Voters Are Changing Their Tune

[Little Tich]

Source: Haaretz

Gaffes aside, Sanders’ embarrassing New York Daily News interview actually illuminates one of the underrated strengths of his campaign.

Bernie Sanders has been getting a lot of flack for his excruciating interview with the New York Daily News, in which, among other things, he made the mistake of claiming that Israel killed over 10,000 Palestinian civilians during the 2014 Gaza war, when in fact that number is closer to 1,500.

Presumably, Sanders mixed up the number of fatalities (a horrific number in itself) with the number of people who were injured — which, according to the UN, is over 11,000. Regardless, it is an embarrassing error.

But while Sanders has been slammed for his apparent lack of knowledge on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and while he’s been accused of being a foreign policy lightweight more generally, the thrust of what he had to say to the Daily News about Israel was actually pretty sensible.

During the interview, Sanders spoke about the need for Israel to withdraw from some West Bank settlements, stating, "I think withdrawal from those territories is appropriate”. He also criticized Israel for its disproportionate response to terrorist rocket attacks: “I don't think I'm alone in believing that Israel's force was more indiscriminate than it should have been.”

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/u-s-election-2016/.premium-1.713505

Note: Haaretz premium - Google title for access.

[ericson00]

1. changing their tune?

Indeed: There's been a very noticable uptrend in the last 20 years in favor of Israel



and the mainstream of all parties (Dems included, despite the extreme-left's best efforts) forever stands with Israel:

[King_David]

2. Yep

If the OP wasn't a lot of crap , which it is, Sanders wouldn't have been in such a hurry to correct the record , which he did.

[Israeli]

5. How many times are you going to post that ericson00 ????

Its not relevant to the OP.

Did you even bother to read the article in full ?

Got it already ......

Quote : hence why I could never vote for him.

he panders to anti-Semites. He's as pro-Jewish as Ted Cruz is pro-Hispanic. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134126919

Get this :

http://www.timesofisrael.com/head-of-israeli-democrats-defends-sanders-foreign-policy-is-not-his-forte/

Nor is Schenker the only Israeli Democrat who has warm feelings for Sanders. In the primaries conducted by Democrats Abroad Israel, 249 registered party members voted for him, compared to 160 who cast their ballot for Hillary Clinton.

[ericson00]

6. until the anti-Israel faction that wants to infect the Democratic Party

and the country as a whole shuts the heck up and takes their stuff back to the Green Party or Europe.

America is forever a pro-freedom, pro-Jewish, and pro-Israel country. Jewish voters and leaders have had a disproportionate role in building the Democratic Party and achieving progressive things, and thus deserve honour. Not to mention Jewish voters are the one group who has voted en masse for Democrats longer than any other group (AAs included).

[King_David]

8. +1

[Israeli]

9. Seriously .....

....you think Bernie is " anti-Israel " and " wants to infect the Democratic Party " ????

Whatever .

Hilary .....will feed you everything you want to hear ....and then some .

At least Bernie is honest .

[King_David]

12. While I think both will be terrific presidents and both will look after Israel

I think it's brave of you to chime in on our election...
Come visit us in the USA .

[King_David]

7. He should post that poll as many times as the minority post anti Zionist nonsense here on DU

It need remind people Democrats at large are pro Israel pro Jewish and Zionist supporting .... Keep on posting that poll as it makes lots of people uncomfortable .

Kol Hakavod

[King_David]

11. "Go play with yourself "

Rude
Homophobic
Hope you don't tell your combat sexy son that.

[leftynyc]

33. For the record

I ALWAYS pay attention to your posts and am thankful every single day that you post here. The gay bashing was really out of line, I'm glad that post got hidden.

[King_David]

34. Thank you .

[leftynyc]

32. I'd like to point out

that you sure didn't speak up when a pro-P poster was posting that poll - several times in each thread - to make a point (it was a stupid point but they did post it over and over and over and over and I don't remember you complaining at all).

[Little Tich]

13. Among Democrats, 23% support the Palestinians, according to the Gallup poll you posted.

Such a significant percentage means that supporting the Palestinians is a mainstream view, even though it's not the majority view. Those with the majority view have no right whatsoever to bash those with a dissenting view for not agreeing with the majority. That's what Republicans do.

[ericson00]

15. being outnumbered over 2.3 : 1 is not mainstream by any serious measure

and I guarantee that once President Hillary makes up with Netanyahu for the turbulence during the Obama years (thru a valiant but failed attempt to make America more popular in the Muslim world), that number will plummet. And the ratio of Israel supporters to Palestinian supporters will increase.

Reagan beat Walter Mondale 58-40, which is almost a 3:2 ratio, or 1.5 : 1. That won him 49 states. 2.3 : 1 would easily get all 50.

[Little Tich]

16. Perhaps these 23% of Democrats should be branded as traitors and not be allowed to vote for the

Democratic party?

Or perhaps we just have to accept that the Democratic party isn't monolithic and that several views on a subject can be considered mainstream at the same time?

[ericson00]

18. quite frankly, I would like them to either change their views

or leave the party. They're no better for our party than ultra-conservatives who wanna deport 12 million Mexican immigrants for their party.

[leftynyc]

25. Mainstream?

When more than twice sympathize with the Israeli's? I would think you would understand that the view with twice as much support is actually the MAJORITY MAINSTREAM view. That's not bashing the other side, that's just reality. It's also the view of the vast majority of Americans.

[Little Tich]

26. I don't believe you.

Judging from what I see on DU, being critical of Israel is mainstream and completely in line with the values of the Democratic Party. Sometimes we just have to accept that there are differences of opinion on certain issues.

[leftynyc]

27. LOL

You think DU represents the Democratic party? If that were true, Bernie would be WAY ahead in delegates (pledged and otherwise) and the popular vote. DU doesn't represent the Democratic party as a whole nor does it, in any way, represent the American people as a whole. That you don't believe a poll that is done every single year and shows support for Israel actually INCREASING since 2008 is entirely your problem.

[Little Tich]

35. That's such a lame argument.

Your "the majority is right because the majority is right" argument doesn't impress me at all. There must be better reasons for supporting Israel than a poll showing that 53% of Democratic voters do...

[leftynyc]

41. There are

and I post them here all the time. That the majority of Democrats and Americans agree with me is something you have a problem with - we're all wrong and you don't understand why we don't know that. You say you're neutral but everyone knows that's bullshit, you only complain about sources when it defends Israel but use 972 mag as a source which is so pathetic, it's not even worth a look. You ignore that the Gazans voted in terrorists, you ignore the daily stabbings, you ignore that this all could have been avoided if the Palestinians had taken their state in 1948 and think they should be given as many do-overs as it takes to destroy Israel. I think all those positions are madness.

[Little Tich]

43. Does really all that - if it was true - justify what Israel is doing?

Israel is a democracy that doesn't act like a democracy, it has the upper hand and the ability to solve the conflict but it doesn't - why? I know that the Israeli Prime Minister is a racist Hitler apologist f**kwit, but are there no other sane politicians who could do something? It's no use blaming the Palestinians for the I/P conflict, and the way to solve the conflict is less oppression, not more. As long as there are Palestinians who are oppressed by Israel in the occupied territories and there are Palestinian refugees with no home to go to, the conflict will continue. Palestinian terrorism is fueled by the causes of the conflict and won't be eradicated until the causes are gone.

I just don't believe that making the lives of angry and poor people worse will somehow make them more peaceful.

For the record - Netanyahu is a Hitler apologist:
Netanyahu blames Jerusalem mufti for Holocaust, is accused of ‘absolving Hitler’
Times of Israel, October 21, 2015
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-accused-of-absolving-hitler-for-holocaust/

[leftynyc]

47. Oh for the love of Jesus

How many times does bibi have to explain what he meant (and apologize) for that stupid hitler thing? That was LAST SUMMER. And it doesn't change the fact the wretched mufti of Jerusalem was pals with Hitler. That's just historical fact. The Palestinians were allied with hitler - that's just historical FACT. That does't absolve hitler despite what the bed wetters want to claim.

It's no use blaming the Palestinians for their own problems? Just forget that they have done nothing but try and destroy Israel since 1948? Just continual do-overs until they succeed? Are you insane? Israel tried to give them the benefit of the doubt when they left Gaza - let's go over how swimmingly that went - more rockets, more violence, elected terrorists - and your answer is to trust they would do the right thing in the West Bank. Just how many dead Israeli's would it take to prove to you that it's the Palestinians that don't want peace? The kids there are fed on hamas tv that tells them the Jews are the source of all their problems so they grow up listening to this crap every single day, others are telling them the glories of martyrdom - but it's the Israeli's fault? Sometimes a country has to be beat down into the mud and realize they have no choice but to surrender before they can be built up. It brings me no joy whatsoever that it seems the Palestinians - like Japan and Germany in WWII - obviously need to learn that horrible lesson.

[Little Tich]

56. I personally don't think that hitting the Palestinians harder will solve the conflict.

The Mufti was a nasty character who did cooperate with the Nazis, but he can't characterize all Palestinians. The Palestinians weren't Nazis. I have a real problem with Netanyahu's ideas about the Mufti, apparently he's had them for years and got them from his pseudo-historian father. It's not really possible to take back the comments he did without a really good explanation, and as long as Netanyahu is completely unable to not use the Mufti and the Holocaust in the same sentence, it's pretty clear that he still thinks the Mufti was involved.

This is actually what Netanyahu believes:

Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, "If you expel them, they'll all come here." "So what should I do with them?" he asked. He said, "Burn them."

[leftynyc]

58. And you think that

couldn't have happened? It's probably exactly what happened and I'm not sure why you think it makes hitler look any less than the repulsive swine he was. It doesn't and he wouldn't have been able to do what he did without PLENTY of help in thoughts, planning and execution. So we can't tag all Palestinians with the mufti and here you are tagging all Israeli's with bibi. That's quite the hypocritical pretzel you've made yourself into.

The Israeli's tried the carrot in pulling out of gaza. If you think they're going to make the same mistake twice, you'd be very wrong. I find it thoroughly amazing that you don't place one iota of blame on the side that has never given up violence. If you weren't claiming to be neutral, it wouldn't bother me at all, you'd just be wrong. But you do CLAIM to be neutral when it's quite obvious to anyone with a brain that you're not.

[Little Tich]

60. I'm not blaming the Israelis for Netanyahu.

Even his most stalwart supporters had probably no idea how toxic he would be to the world community and how hard he would try to start a new intifada. He's already tried to start a war with Iran a few times, but some sane Israelis were able to stop him. Just because Netanyahu is an Arab-hating Hitler apologist doesn't mean that the Israelis are.

[leftynyc]

61. That you call him

a hitler apologist tells me all I need to know. He is no such thing. He is way wiser than anyone who thinks hitler thought up his final solution and executed it without plenty of help.

[Little Tich]

62. Netanyahu is the only Israeli politician who is a Hitler apologist

- the description fits any person who tries to shift the blame for the Holocaust away from Hitler to someone else, but Netanyahu is the only Israeli I know of. Not even Meir Kahane and Avigdor Lieberman have gone so far. And now Likud has invited the Austrian Freedom party leader to Israel - this is a racist party with direct links to the Nazis and the SS: for example, its first leader was Anton Reinthaller, a former SS Brigadeführer, and a few years back it was Jörg Haider. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Reinthaller), (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Haider)
I have a problem with anyone who associated with the European far right, and it seems as if Netanyahu and the Likud are very cozy with European right-wingers, even the extreme ones.

Perhaps it's no big deal for you, but for me, this means that Netanyahu is completely unsuitable for Premiership in a democratic country.

[leftynyc]

63. Anyone who thinks

that hitler was solely responsible for the holocaust is an imbecile. Bibi didn't try and shift anything - he pointed out the truth and your talking points are ridiculous. Why keep denying that the grand mufti had VERY CLOSE ties to the nazis? The cozy pictures are so easy to find. That you're making me defend bibi - who I've said dozens of times is a complete asshole who is horrible for Israel - just shows to what lengths you're going to in order to defend the indefensible. It's pathetic and disgusting. And, I can easily point out, it isn't doing the Palestinians one bit of good - you just keep ignoring that concentrating on these petty bullshit things doesn't do anything other than make you look historically ignorant. The Palestinians STILL (right now, today) have totally corrupt leadership that also happen to be on the terrorist watch lists. Why don't you want to talk about that instead of pretending one person killed 12 million people?

[shira]

49. Justify? Israel has offered the Palestinians a state multiple times & the Palestinians....

....have rejected every offer. If they wanted their own state they could have had it LONG ago.

People aren't stupid. They know the history.

They know they cannot support a totalitarian racist, Palestinian leadership that is anti-human rights and regressive in every conceivable way.

They also know that if the Palestinians stopped fighting there'd be peace. OTOH, if the Jews stopped defending themselves, there'd be another genocide. Everyone knows this. Decent people can easily acknowledge this.

And anyone who's been in Israel knows it's one of the LEAST racist societies on the planet given the circumstances. Given the people have been under attack since before 1948 there. Any other country in the same situation would've nuked the Palestinians half a dozen times already in response.

It's really a no-brainer. It's just amazing that in 2016 Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the PLO find so much support from regressive Left people who should know better than to hate Jews.

[Little Tich]

57. I can't recall Israel making any viable offers, but I do recall a lot of scam offers that would've

created a Palestinian Bantustan.

The only viable offer that would have had a chance to create a Palestinian state was the one the Arab League made in 2002. It still stands, but Israel hasn't even responded. Obviously, the settlements are more important than peace.

The interesting thing is that a Palestinian state is either viable or not - there's really nothing in between. If all Israeli offers were less than needed for a viable Palestinian state, what was the point of them? It's not as if Israel can dictate the terms of a two-state solution, and meanwhile the one-state reality is becoming evermore harder to ignore.


Israel can only keep on blaming the Palestinians for not accepting a non-viable Palestinian state for a while longer, eventually the current situation will become the basis for a permanent solution. The least racist society on the planet will just have to share their country with their neighbors.

[shira]

59. Give it a rest with that BS. The Saudi Plan is hardly different than the offers....

....Israel made in 2000-01 with the Clinton Parameters or Olmert's 2008 offer.

You don't even support the Saudi Plan due to land swaps you don't believe are viable, so WTF do you think you're fooling with your crap?

[King_David]

30. Well the critics on DU of the Jewish State are not all Americans

A lot are not and of the American critics their views on Israel are nothing at all from what one hears on the Democratic Party campaigns or among my friends and family.

[Little Tich]

36. There's this minor issue with a Democratic Presidential candidate who pretty openly criticizes

Israel.

He's American, isn't he?

[King_David]

37. Link to the criticism please

[Little Tich]

38. Sanders accuses Israel of 'disproportionate' response in Gaza

Source: CNN, April 10, 2016

Washington (CNN)Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders -- the first Jewish candidate to win a presidential nominating contest -- believes Israel's response in the 2014 Gaza war was "disproportionate."

"Was Israel's response disproportionate? I think it was," he told CNN's Jake Tapper in an interview that aired Sunday on "State of the Union."

"Israel has a 100% -- and no one will fight for that principle more strongly than I will -- has the right to live in freedom, independently and in security without having to be subjected to terrorist attacks," he said. "But I think that we will not succeed to ever bring peace into that region unless we also treat the Palestinians with dignity and respect, and that is my view."

The seven-week conflict in 2014 was an Israeli response to Hamas rocket fire into southern Israel. More than 2,130 Palestinians were killed in the conflict, and it's not clear how many were civilians. At the time of the ceasefire, the United Nations estimated that more than 70% were civilians, but Israel reported a higher number of militants among the dead.

Tapper asked Sanders about an interview he gave to the New York Daily News earlier this month in which the Vermont senator said his recollection was that more than 10,000 innocent people were killed in the conflict. Sanders told Tapper that he wasn't sure what the death toll was, and when a Daily News editor clarified it to him, he accepted it.

Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/10/politics/bernie-sanders-israel-gaza/index.html

[King_David]

39. And?

"Israel has a 100% -- and no one will fight for that principle more strongly than I will -- has the right to live in freedom, independently and in security without having to be subjected to terrorist attacks," he said.

[Little Tich]

40. That was the full extent of his criticism of Israel, I guess.

There's more about Sanders' position on Israel/Palestine in a Mondoweiss article - while I think the argumentation is weak, it lists Sanders voting record on the issue:

Bernie Sanders’ record on Palestine
Source: Mondoweiss, April 8, 2016
(snip)

Bernie Sanders is clearly more progressive on the Palestinian issue than any other major candidate for the Presidency including Hillary Clinton. Still, when viewed from a Palestinian perspective, a review of his record on key issues in support of the Palestinian struggle for freedom and justice falls well short.

Read more: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/04/bernie-sanders-record-on-palestine/

[leftynyc]

42. mondoweiss?

Funny how you only have problems with sources when they're pro-I. You have zero problem with any piece of crap source as long as it confirms your very obvious biases. No American President is going to turn against Israel. So he thinks they were too rough on the Palestinians during the Gaza war? So what? Big deal. That changes absolutely nothing. And really? mondoweiss? Go ahead and tell me again how neutral you are.

[Little Tich]

44. I have no real problem with Mondoweiss - their articles are often factually correct.

I just don't post from there as I mostly post news, not opinion pieces. Am I biased - I sure hope not, because what's the point of having a point of view if it's not morally sound? When it comes to sources, I actually don't know of any pro-Israel website that doesn't fudge the facts, but if you know of one, please let me know...

[leftynyc]

45. Uh - no

They're not factually correct when they apply the most nefarious motives only to one side of the equation. And your last sentence of your post proves my point. Only pro-P sites are morally sound? And you call yourself neutral? That's pathetic.

[oberliner]

46. You should

It is a vile hate-filled blog run by a truly awful individual.

[King_David]

3. Not worth the effort I spent googling it ...

The article is crap and definitely not worth paying Haaretz premium for.

[Little Tich]

14. That's too bad, because the OP reflects my own view to a significant degree.

Don't you want to know why some people have a different view than you?

[King_David]

22. Of course, your view is very important to me

I'm surprised it reflects your view because usually I value your views here very much so.

[Little Tich]

24. We're all learning here.

If you find yourself agreeing with some things I say and not with others, that means that you're using your critical thinking skills.

[bemildred]

4. Well, it is different.

Clearly nobody much gives a crap about Bernie's religion, I don't think it's even come up. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

But he is a populist so he is not playing to the usual audience, like Turmp. So it's hard to say it doesn't matter too.

But I think mostly it's Obama in the White House, being Jewish doesn't quite rise to the necessary level of outrage.

[oberliner]

17. “As you know, the Zionist Jews – and I don’t mean to offend anybody – they run the Federal Reserve

– they run the Federal Reserve, they run Wall Street, they run every campaign,” Mr. Prince said.

Mr. Sanders frowned, held up his hand, and began shaking his head. “Brother, brother, brother,” he said.

But, Mr. Prince went on: “What is your affiliation to your Jewish community? That’s all I’m asking.”

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/04/09/at-harlems-apollo-bernie-sanders-slams-the-clintons-on-poverty-and-race/

[ericson00]

19. how did Bernie not react more to that kind of hatred?

hence why some call him certain names (names that mentioning get you hidden around here.)

[bemildred]

20. Yeah, all right, nothing is changed.

It's just totally sabotaged his campaign, the hatred.

[oberliner]

21. You wrote that Bernie's religion has never come up

It very much has. Spend a little time on YouTube and Twitter and Facebook on you'll encounter more of the same.

[bemildred]

28. Yeah, you got me, enjoy. nt

[oberliner]

29. There is nothing enjoyable about it

It's actually quite alarming. It seems to me that an undercurrent of anti-semitism could be one of the factors that prevents Bernie from getting the nomination.

I daresay that might even have played some role in how poorly he did in the South.

[bemildred]

31. I wouldn't think it is much fun. nt

[King_David]

23. That's disappointing

[azurnoir]

50. actually Hillary's campaign tested the waters on implying Sanders was a bad Jew or something

for not supporting Israel enough

http://americablog.com/2016/02/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-fake-jew.html

[bemildred]

51. The old dog whistles just don't work like they used to.

Trump is finding that out too.

[azurnoir]

54. nope they don't

[oberliner]

52. Nothing in that link matches what you are claiming

Nowhere does Hillary's campaign "test the waters" on implying Sanders was "a bad Jew".

[azurnoir]

53. Title-Hillary Clinton’s campaign promises not to call Bernie Sanders a fake Jew

link-http://americablog.com/2016/02/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-fake-jew.html

[King_David]

55. That article is a bunch of crap though...

[geek tragedy]

48. We'll see how his candor plays in New York next Tuesday. nt