Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

NNadir

(34,654 posts)
Sun Oct 13, 2024, 08:42 AM Oct 13

Plans for "Green" Hydrogen Transition in China: An Amusing Paper Involving Doubly Wasteful Energy Storage.

We hear a lot of what I regard as fossil fuel greenwashing about hydrogen, in this space often coupled with slick marketing videos about hydrogen cars, hydrogen trucks, hydrogen trains, blah, blah, blah in China. We can look forward I guess to slick videos about hydrogen food processors, hydrogen lawn mowers, and hydrogen children's toys.

Nothing is too absurd.

I spent some time a while back pointing out that hydrogen is made, with exergy destruction, overwhelmingly made by the steam reformation of dangerous fossil fuels and thus is an important driver of the extreme global heating we are now experiencing and have little hope of addressing.

A Giant Climate Lie: When they're selling hydrogen, what they're really selling is fossil fuels.

The paper I will briefly discuss in this post, from late July of this year reports data on the source of Chinese hydrogen used in these Potemkin fossil fuel marketing videos as of now, followed by soothsaying about the future. Note that these videos are often accompanied by pictures of Chinese solar farms, all of which will be massive piles electronic waste in about 25 years, more or less "by 2050." The fossil fuel salespersons and salesbots in this space, looking to rebrand wastefully fossil fuels as "hydrogen," are also noted for their antinuclear rhetoric, such rhetoric having been spectacularly successful in demonizing the last best, hope for driving the coal, gas, and petroleum industries out of business, and arresting the acceleration of extreme global heating, nuclear energy. The same people/bots like to post criticism of the safety of batteries while ignoring the many cases of hydrogen explosions, despite the trivial position of consumer hydrogen (which is a good thing) relative to the wide distribution of batteries.

This is the paper: Assessing Transition Pathways of Hydrogen Production in China with a Probabilistic Framework Zihan Zhen, Xunmin Ou, Yu Wang, and Sheng Zhou Environmental Science & Technology 2024 58 (30), 13263-13272.

Note there is talk about a "transition" in the title. People act as if there is an "energy transition" underway, which is nonsense. Things are getting worse with respect to the use of fossil fuels, not better. Talk of an "energy transition" is all soothsaying, and far more expensive than paying a psychic 25 bucks at the Jersey shore to tell you if your girlfriend who left you for a wealthy stockbroker will come back to you. Trillions of dollars have been spent on the Potemkin "energy transition," and things are getting worse faster, not better. We are using more fossil fuels than ever before.

From the introduction to the paper:

Adoption of hydrogen is a vital strategy for China to achieve its goal of carbon neutrality by 2060. In China’s net-zero future, green hydrogen is an important option for decarbonizing energy systems (1,2) and the “hard-to-abate” sectors. (3−5) However, the prerequisite for low-carbon hydrogen application is low-carbon production, which makes the decarbonization of hydrogen production particularly important. According to different hydrogen production technologies, hydrogen can be divided into three categories: gray (fossil fuel-based) hydrogen, (6−8) blue hydrogen (gray hydrogen with carbon capture and storage), (9−11) and green hydrogen (produced from water electrolysis, (12,13) thermochemistry, (14) and biomass gasification (14,15)). The transition to low-carbon green hydrogen is costly and uncertain, and a scientific and pragmatic roadmap is urgently needed to guide the transition process.

Currently, research related to quantitative roadmaps does not adequately discuss uncertainty. In fact, during the low–carbon transition, factors such as technological evolution, policy-making, and available natural resources are considerably uncertain. (16) The probabilistic framework aims to quantify the impact of the aforementioned uncertainties through large-sample simulations, which better reflects the joint effects of high-dimensional parameter uncertainties compared to conventional sensitivity analysis. (17,18) Employing a probabilistic framework to enhance uncertainty quantification will help researchers clarify the potential range of research results and further obtain statistically reliable conclusions. Moreover, it will also hold promise for advancing scientific policy-making (17) and will facilitate informed investment decisions for stakeholders. (12)

Through a detailed literature review (Table S1 summarizes the current state of relevant studies), (5,11,12,16,19−26) we found that only a few studies (1,12) have employed probabilistic frameworks, typically based on simplistic methods such as technology diffusion models. However, considering that the aforementioned methods fail to provide detailed technical characterizations and strategies for infrastructure investment and operation, energy system models remain the mainstream method in this domain. (27) It is worth noting that energy system models often entail a large number of parameters and complex model structures, which necessitate a higher demand for uncertainty analysis and are accompanied by increased challenges. (28−30) Currently, despite some attempts to incorporate probabilistic frameworks into energy system models (Table S2 summarizes the current state), (17,31−37) there have been no studies specifically focused on hydrogen production transition. It is worth noting that many researches (20,26) providing quantitative roadmaps for hydrogen low-carbon transition exhibit a notable sensitivity to cost parameters, rendering their conclusions highly questionable, (27) which further demonstrates the necessity of employing the probabilistic framework...


I added the bold. In other words, we have no idea how this really might work; we want to bet the farm though that it will work, somehow, in someway.

OK then...

Some more, later on, including the part that would be really, really, really amusing were it not so tragic:

The developed model covers almost all hydrogen production technologies. Figure 1 shows the concept of the developed hydrogen production model. For water electrolysis, we considered wind, solar, hydro, and nuclear as independently equipped power sources for hydrogen production. At the same time, energy storage (ES), such as lithium batteries, can be equipped to improve the utilization rate of electrolyzers (see S2.2.a), thereby diluting the fixed cost of electrolyzers per unit of hydrogen. In this study, three mainstream types of electrolyzers─alkaline (AE), proton exchange membrane (PEM), and solid-oxide electrolysis cell (SOEC)─were used. For fossil fuel-based hydrogen, the model considered coal gasification (CG), steam methane reforming (SMR), and industrial byproduct extraction (EXT). The model also considered biomass gasification (BG). At the same time, CCS can be applied to the above hydrogen production technology. In addition, the model includes nuclear-based thermochemical hydrogen production (THP). Finally, the model also considers direct hydrogen production using grid power, which will become possible as power systems gradually decarbonize.


I added the bold for the part that's, for a lack of a better term, "sick" since charging a battery loses energy to entropy (exergy destruction), discharging a battery loses energy to entropy, and electrolysis loses energy to entropy, and pressurizing hydrogen to store it, or worse, liquefy it, loses energy to entropy. In short, this is a proposal to waste energy, huge amounts of it, thus raising the external cost, the external cost being the one that actually matters, the cost to the environment and human health. The reason that one needs to waste energy by charging a battery to run an electrolyzers is because all electrolyzers exhibit hysteresis, a period of time during which they consume energy without producing any hydrogen, when they restart after being idle.

One sees these things, and one doesn't really want to believe they're being taken seriously.

Some figures from the paper follow.

The source of the primary energy to drive the electrolyzers, and the other approaches to hydrogen, including the fossil fuel marketing scheme CCS, carbon capture and storage, which has not worked, is not working and won't work, although it gets lots and lots and lots of marketing press is described in the first figure:




The caption:

Figure 1. Concept of the developed hydrogen production model with a probabilistic framework. The red arrow and rounded box illustrate the difference between process and technology (see S2.1). Nuclear is not considered to be equipped with ES, and only nuclear energy can be used for SOEC (see S2.1).


It would appear that unlike fossil fuel salespeople and salesbots here and elsewhere working to rebrand fossil fuels as "hydrogen," the Chinese have no insane hostility to the world's last, best hope of ending fossil fuel dependency, nuclear energy. Indeed they note that one electrolyzer technology, SOEC, solid oxide electrolytic cells, will not work at all with variable energy and only nuclear energy will work.

The caption refers to the supplemental data for the paper, which is free to access and can be found here: Environmental Science & Technology 2024 58 (30), 13263-13272 supplemental data.

Tables S9, S10, and S11 offer soothsaying about various "scenarios" - "scenario" being the IEA terms for soothsaying based on a number of "if" statements, usually involving super optimistic statements about so called "renewable energy" despite the fact that the already trillion dollar expenditures on this lipstick on the fossil fuel pig has done effectively nothing to address extreme global heating, since under the expenditures the rate of extreme global heating is accelerating, not decelerating despite these expenditures.

Only the values from the entry for 2020 are likely to be based on actual data beyond soothsaying. For convenience, I'll produce them here from table S9:



BG refers to biogas reforming, CG, to coal reforming, SMR, steam methane reforming, natural gas reforming, and EXT refers to industrial byproducts, presumably oil refining. Based on the data for 2020, which is probably the most accurate, in "percent talk" that advocates of so called "renewable energy" like to use to obscure its uselessness, 98.88% of the hydrogen used to power those Chinese devices in the ads posted here was generated by the use of dangerous fossil fuels, accompanied by exergy destruction. Solar energy produced 0.3%, hydro, 0.8%.

Are the ads misleading? Um, um, um...

Note that in figure 1, a nuclear source of hydrogen is shown that does not involve the waste associated with electrolysis, which in my view will always be a wasteful nonstarter. This is "THP," "thermochemical hydrogen production" via a thermal water splitting cycle, of which my favorite is the "SI cycle," which is amenable to process intensification in which electricity becomes a side product of a nuclear power plant. A recent publication by Chinese scientists working on this hydrogen cycle is here: Bo Ling, Zhihua Wang, Jinxu Zhang, Yong He, Yanqun Zhu, Kefa Cen, Comprehensive comparative analysis of open-loop and closed-loop iodine-sulfur thermochemical cycle for hydrogen production, International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, Volume 48, Issue 40, 2023, Pages 14941-14953

Figure 2 also shows this state of affairs, that hydrogen production in China is overwhelmingly dominated by fossil fuels now, soothsaying aside:



Figure 2. Hydrogen production transition pathways of baseline cases under the three strategies (S1–S3). Different colors represent different hydrogen production processes. The ordinate is the amount of hydrogen produced by each process.


Another figure with happy talk about electrolyzers:



Figure 5. Electrolyzer-related indicator performance. (a) Proportion of hydrogen production based on different electrolyzers from 2030 to 2060. Utilization rate and available capacity of different electrolyzers (b) AE, (c) PEM, and (d) SOEC. The dashed line under the right ordinate shows the distribution of utilization rate of electrolyzers in different years. The violin chart under the left ordinate shows the distribution of available electrolyzer capacity. The color intensity represents the average level of utilization rate. Distribution of energy source structures of (e) AE and (f) PEM. Proportion distributions of hydrogen produced through ES to total hydrogen (through non-ES and ES) based on (g) wind and (h) solar power. The distributions on the left and right represent AE and PEM, respectively.


In the conclusion, the operative sentences are these:

The increase of transition ambitions greatly increases the uncertainty of green hydrogen production. Higher transition ambitions lead to higher system costs and cost uncertainty, which drives hydrogen production to shift from resource-driven to capital-driven. Moreover, the cumulative emissions of the delayed strategy may reach 1.75 Gt, which is 3 times that of the radical strategy. The uncertainty of the emission pathways of the orderly transition strategy may reach twice that of the other strategies.


According to the soothsaying, in 2060, hydrogen production will be adding between between 0.6 to 1.75 billion tons of carbon dioxide to the planetary atmosphere. That's just optimism though; on this path things will get far worse. The distance between 2060 and now the same as the distance between 2024 and 1988. If you were alive in 1988, did you think the world would be like the one in which you live now?

Just asking...

Personally, I have no use for soothsaying; it's not data. The data is in. The atmosphere is undergoing a rapid collapse.

Have a nice Sunday.
2 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Plans for "Green" Hydrogen Transition in China: An Amusing Paper Involving Doubly Wasteful Energy Storage. (Original Post) NNadir Oct 13 OP
About a year ago a video was posted on DU about nuclear waste. It discussed that the nuclear in2herbs Oct 13 #1
I am probably the wrong person with whom to discuss this, because I don't think of used nuclear fuel as "waste" but... NNadir Oct 13 #2

in2herbs

(3,119 posts)
1. About a year ago a video was posted on DU about nuclear waste. It discussed that the nuclear
Sun Oct 13, 2024, 12:11 PM
Oct 13

generating stations built in the 60s were adapted to turn the nuclear waste into pellets, which in turn, shortened their nuclear activity to about 100 years instead of thousands of years. The pellets could also be used in other applications while "disintegrating." I am against nuclear energy because of the length of time the waste remains active, but the video opened the possibility to changing my mind.

Do you know anything about this? And, if you do, could you comment?

Thanks

NNadir

(34,654 posts)
2. I am probably the wrong person with whom to discuss this, because I don't think of used nuclear fuel as "waste" but...
Sun Oct 13, 2024, 05:01 PM
Oct 13

...I have long argued that all of the components of used nuclear fuel are extremely valuable, in particular the once through uranium which in general makes up the bulk of the mass. This is because once through uranium contains the isotope 236U which does not occur naturally and is the precursor to 237Np, itself the precursor to 238Pu, the plutonium isotope that powers spacecraft but also has the property of making plutonium unusable for nuclear weapons.

The chief transuranium actinides found in used nuclear fuel are plutonium, neptunium, americium, and curium. All of these have critical masses and therefore all are useful as nuclear fuel, particularly if they are allowed to accumulate in large amounts, which they must do if we are to save the world since nuclear energy is the last best hope of the human race.

It would take a very long time to list all of the potential uses for fission products; if one is inclined, one can leaf through my journal here, where I have discussed many of them.

The fear of used nuclear fuel is not commensurate with the actual risk, which is extremely low, almost to the point of vanishing. It's a media creation.

However, let's cut to the chase about energy "waste." The difference between used nuclear fuel, often characterized out of ignorance as to what is involved, as "nuclear waste," and fossil fuel waste is that the latter kills people - and is killing the planet with extreme global heating - and used nuclear fuel has accumulated a 70 year record of being stored, largely on site, without killing anyone.

The death toll from fossil fuel waste in the form of air pollution, fossil fuel waste, is about 7 million people a year, and to show this, I keep handy a reference and excerpt with my commentary from one of the most important medical journals in the world, Lancet.

It is here:

Global burden of 87 risk factors in 204 countries and territories, 1990–2019: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2019 (Lancet Volume 396, Issue 10258, 17–23 October 2020, Pages 1223-1249). This study is a huge undertaking and the list of authors from around the world is rather long. These studies are always open sourced; and I invite people who want to carry on about Fukushima to open it and search the word "radiation." It appears once. Radon, a side product brought to the surface by fracking while we all wait for the grand so called "renewable energy" nirvana that did not come, is not here and won't come, appears however: Household radon, from the decay of natural uranium, which has been cycling through the environment ever since oxygen appeared in the Earth's atmosphere.

Here is what it says about air pollution deaths in the 2019 Global Burden of Disease Survey, if one is too busy to open it oneself because one is too busy carrying on about Fukushima:

The top five risks for attributable deaths for females were high SBP (5·25 million [95% UI 4·49–6·00] deaths, or 20·3% [17·5–22·9] of all female deaths in 2019), dietary risks (3·48 million [2·78–4·37] deaths, or 13·5% [10·8–16·7] of all female deaths in 2019), high FPG (3·09 million [2·40–3·98] deaths, or 11·9% [9·4–15·3] of all female deaths in 2019), air pollution (2·92 million [2·53–3·33] deaths or 11·3% [10·0–12·6] of all female deaths in 2019), and high BMI (2·54 million [1·68–3·56] deaths or 9·8% [6·5–13·7] of all female deaths in 2019). For males, the top five risks differed slightly. In 2019, the leading Level 2 risk factor for attributable deaths globally in males was tobacco (smoked, second-hand, and chewing), which accounted for 6·56 million (95% UI 6·02–7·10) deaths (21·4% [20·5–22·3] of all male deaths in 2019), followed by high SBP, which accounted for 5·60 million (4·90–6·29) deaths (18·2% [16·2–20·1] of all male deaths in 2019). The third largest Level 2 risk factor for attributable deaths among males in 2019 was dietary risks (4·47 million [3·65–5·45] deaths, or 14·6% [12·0–17·6] of all male deaths in 2019) followed by air pollution (ambient particulate matter and ambient ozone pollution, accounting for 3·75 million [3·31–4·24] deaths (12·2% [11·0–13·4] of all male deaths in 2019), and then high FPG (3·14 million [2·70–4·34] deaths, or 11·1% [8·9–14·1] of all male deaths in 2019).



If one runs the numbers, this works out to about 19,000 people killed per day, roughly by air pollution, or 800 people per hour.

I invite, often, people concerned about so called "nuclear waste" to show that in the 70 year history of the storage of used nuclear fuel, that it has killed as many people as will die today from air pollution, indeed as many people as will die from air pollution in the next 10 hours, 8,000 people. For evidence of this case, I will only accept references from the primary scientific literature as opposed to junk websites.

Note that if someone were to die from used nuclear fuel storage, the "but her emails" and "Joe Biden's old" media would go into a major festival of ignorance pushing, whereas they don't remark at all on the deaths of fossil fuel, or if they do, it's in obscure settings.

They miss the point, a truism: Nuclear energy need not be without risk to be vastly superior to everything else. It only needs to better than everything else, which it is.

I have very little tolerance for this "thousands of years" nonsense, often stated as "millions of years" or even "billions of years." The world has always been radioactive and always will be, but it can be shown that in a continuous fuel recycling program, after about 1000 years of the utilization of clean nuclear energy that the overall radioactivity of the planet will be reduced because of the relative short half life of most fission products and the elimination of some of the uranium driving the uranium decay chain.

I made reference to this in an earlier post, with references, here: 828 Underground Nuclear Tests, Plutonium Migration in Nevada, Dunning, Kruger, Strawmen, and Tunnels It's a long post, with many scientific references, but if you look, it's there.

The relevant excerpt:

The following figure shows the very different case obtained if one separates the uranium, plutonium and minor actinides (neptunium, americium and curium) and fissions them, whereupon the reduction of radioactivity to a level that is actually below that of the original uranium in a little over 300 years:



The caption:

Fig. 4. – Radiotoxicity (log-scale, unit: Sv/tSM) of 1 t of heavy metal (SM) from a pressurized water reactor (initial enrichment 4.2% U-235, burn-up 50 GWd/t) with regard to ingestion as a function of time (log-scale, unit: years) after discharge. Left-hand frame: contribution of fission products (FP), plutonium (Pu) and minor actinides (MA) to radiotoxicity. Right-hand frame: Modification of radiotoxicity due to separation of U, Pu or U, Pu, MA. The reference value is the radiotoxicity of the amount of natural uranium that was used to produce 1 t of nuclear fuel. Source: [17].


(Hartwig Freiesleben, The European Physical Journal Conferences · June 2013)

Source 17, in German, is this one: Reduzierung der Radiotoxizität abgebrannter Kernbrennstoffe durch Abtrennung und Transmutation von Actiniden: Partitioning. Reducing spent nuclear fuel radiotoxicity by actinide separation and transmutation: partitioning.


All of the components of used nuclear fuel are valuable and are essential to the survival of the planet and the ecosystems not already destroyed by fossil fuel waste. Some of those components, like the interesting metal technetium, and of course, neptunium, plutonium, americium and curium, can be obtained no where else.

I hope this helps you to keep an open mind.
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»Plans for "Green" Hydroge...