Should a High School Graduate

[Riftaxe]

be required to show minimal proficiency in reading, writing and science on at least a 6th grade level before graduating?

What is the minimum education do you think should be required of a high school graduate these days?

[TreasonousBastard]

1. I'll just say that when I went to City College...

we were required to take remedial math if we had not taken advanced algebra in high school.

Twenty years later I ran into a woman from the old neighborhood at a party and she told me she taught remedial math at City College.

"Wow! Interesting coincidence. So you teach advanced algebra?"

"No. Multiplication and division."

That night is when I decided we are doomed.

[Riftaxe]

2. What brought this OP to mind

Was an old post on this subforum where a middle school science teacher was bragging about how well he did with functionally illiterate students.

That post and it's warm reception here has bugged me for a long time.

[longship]

4. I taught high school math in CA for three years.

It was right at the adoption of NCLB. The pass/fail rate in my 9th grade algebra classes was 26/74. That's correct. And My classes were amongst the highest for 9th grade. It was a required class for every freshman student. What I found out very quickly is that it is very difficult to teach academic algebra to students who do not know how to multiply two numbers, let alone divide.

Furthermore, when a student flunked the first semester algebra, they would be enrolled in second semester algebra regardless of their grade. This was a fucking disaster for those students who managed to do well. I pleaded with the school administrators to change the policy. I spoke to the school board at public meetings. It took two years for them to change the policy.

Meanwhile, my complaints about putting students into an academic algebra curriculum with no arithmetic abilities went unheard. Because of NCLB, all students were required to take academic algebra in 9th grade and geometry in 10th grade so that they could do well in the mandatory graduation exams during 11th grade.

So they shoveled them into the meat grinder. And only about a quarter of freshman algebra students ever passed the course. Do I have to relate the experiences from the classes of the repeaters? Hopeless first time; now you have a class room full of them. There's no way you are going to get 25% through the curriculum.

We called NCLB, Blame the Teacher. I could not take the incompetence. I resigned.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. All incoming freshmen had to take algebra? My HS...

split us into three groups with the "A" students getting algebra, the "B" students getting something called "business math" and the "C" group getting "general math". All of us taking algebra were run through some initial testing to make sure we actually had arithmetic, including fractions, decimals, and roots, in grade school.

I imagine that would be considered discriminatory now.

[SheilaT]

6. One huge problem is the semester system itself.

And secondarily are cases, as you've mentioned, of kids flunking the first semester of a math class and being automatically enrolled in the second semester.

If I were Dictator of North America, and radically re-do the school year. I'd divide it up into six week segments. There would be a lot of segments that would be self contained or would not have any particular pre-requisites, such as literature segments, or
English grammar segments, or certain science segments. Others, such as math or foreign languages, would require that you successfully complete the earlier segments. So if, for instance, you're enrolled in beginning Algebra and you fail that first six weeks, you repeat it. No need to fail an entire semester, and you do the repeat immediately. Or at least before you can go on in algebra.

Think about how much less wasted time there would be. Think about not being stuck for an entire semester -- or worse yet, an entire year -- in a class you just don't understand.

I really wish I were Dictator of North America.

[Journeyman]

10. That's a good idea, Sheila. . .

I like that: Not having students stuck in a class they don't understand for an entire year. It might also hold the teacher a bit more accountable as well, since their success (or lack of it) would be evident every month and a half. Might make everyone buckle down a bit more.

[daleanime]

16. I'd vote for you...

[SheilaT]

17. Where were you when I actually ran for office?

I really did. Kansas State House ten years ago. I lost, alas, have relocated to another state and doubt I'll ever run for office again.

I honestly don't know why someone hasn't already completely re-thought the semester system at the high school level. I can't imagine re-doing it at the college level, but in high school it seems to me that it would be highly feasible and could work. However, I have never taught school at any level, so there may be some very important things I'm overlooking.

It would require more record keeping, that's for sure. And scheduling classes would be more difficult, especially things that must be taught in sequence, such as math, foreign languages, and some sciences. You'd need to offer the beginning of those things more than once a year, so that a student who didn't flunk the very first sequence in algebra didn't have to wait an entire year to start again. Same with the foreign languages. I do think the sciences could be looked at and after the very first six week intro in biology, chemistry, or physics, the rest could perhaps be taught as topics in those sciences. Again, I've never taught them and so I may well be wrong here.

[Riftaxe]

11. That is just hell on the students

Pointless as all hell.

[Smarmie Doofus]

3. It's a good question but the reality is more nuanced.

In general.... yes. Higher level proficiency, in fact.

But there are different KINDS of diplomas... representing different realities. And some students will NEVER score above 6 th grade in Reading and math.

One wouldn't want to deny a HS diploma to a student w. Down Syndrome who went to HS, worked hard, attended regularly, thru grade 12 . ( To age 21 in most cases.)

In NYS, kids like this are awarded "IEP Diplomas". These are in fact HS diplomas but incorporate the term ( IEP) in the language on the document. An employer or post-HS ed admissions officer will understand that the iep diploma does not carry as much educational "weight" as a community ( sometimes called a "local&quot diploma. Other states may have a different arrangement.

In NYS also, some gen ed kids get "local diplomas" and some "Regents diplomas". Regents diploma kids took and passed certain NYS tests that have earned them the weightier. "Regents Diploma".

Also... it's a little simplistic to think in terms of a single "reading " level or a single "writing" level. Reading is many things: Vocabulary, Comprehension, Decoding, etc. My son is graduating this year from an LD school in NJ and his reading levels ( plural )are all over the place ; i.e above Grsde 6 in some reading domains , below in others.

This is a common and familiar pattern w. dyslexic kids. It is important to recognize that this has to do w. the nature of the handicapping condition; not the efficacy of the teacher or of the school. ( He's graduating with what NJ calls a "local".... not "iep"... diploma. Even though my son has an iep.)

How do you feel about it?

[mbperrin]

8. Good answer. Well said.

I've been teaching for three decades now, and the only study I'd be interested in has never been done.

I want a longitudinal study that follows millions of kids from birth to death and then figure out what courses they took that contributed to their happiness, if any.

Until then, any decisions on what to teach are purely arbitrary and just some anecdotal opinion of the writers of curricula.

So long as GRADING is the most important factor in education, as it is with NCLB, bad decisions will be made, because grades are of interest whatever the moment you graduate and get a real job.

[Riftaxe]

12. Special ED is a different thing entirely

from what I am thinking. I was not familiar with how NY Handled things but i do like it a lot.

On the rest I do not think it is simplistic for an 18 year old not challenged student to be able to read 2 syllable words, add/subract (these days multiply and divide are beyond 6th grade). And know that the earth is at the very least a set of systems.


Given that a 6th grade is semi-literate, can add/subtract, and has simple knowledge of systems....would you graduate that student from high school?

[Smarmie Doofus]

15. It depends. Actually, I'm not going to answer your question directly...

Last edited Thu May 8, 2014, 11:28 AM - Edit history (1)

.... since I'll never be in a position to make such a decision ( And how f-ed up is that?) but as a parent I will opine. Hopefully more meaningfully. I'm dealing w. a real life situation that is not very dissimilar to what you describe here:

>>>>Given that a 6th grade is semi-literate, can add/subtract, and has simple knowledge of systems....would you graduate that student from high school? >>>>>

As a *parent* I would desire , hope , and expect that the HS diploma be awarded, that the school NOT tell him that he's going to college ( or that he NEEDS to go to college) and I would investigate post-HS vocational training. Keeping him in HS 'til he reads at "grade level" is nuts. It will never happen.

I don't really think that special ed is a different thing entirely. I think there are a lot of kids in this situation. Whether they've been diagnosed w. a disability or not. And increasingly the gov't has taken the position that effectively there IS NO SUCH THING as disability, at least in ed policy terms. Hence Sp Ed kids must do common core curriculum ( e.g. algebra for 16 y.o. Down Syndome kids) no matter how irrelevant that is to their *actual* educational needs. Also most Sp Ed kids are now mixed in w. gen ed kids for most classes . Another not very bright, govt-imposed ideation. Given the fact that most sp ed kids can be taught more effectively in a separate setting. And their presence in the gen ed classroom makes the gen ed teacher's task impossible

If a kid is reading at 6th grade level(s), I would NOT ( *necessarily*; every case is different.) keep him/her in school until he can. Not everyone should go to college. Not everyone NEEDS to go to college. Unfortunately, no one tells these kids that. And, indeed, there are colleges that will enroll just about anyone who is willing and/or able to pay the tuition.

Believe me, their unsolicited mailings are strewn all over this place.

[mbperrin]

18. Don't know what state you're in. In Texas, multiplication begins in 3rd grade.

Here's the standards for elementary math in Texas:

http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/rules/tac/chapter111/ch111a.html

The earth as a system begins in 1st grade:

http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/rules/tac/chapter112/ch112a.html

And creating two syllable words is a first grade activity as well:

http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/rules/tac/chapter110/ch110a.html

Maybe your state is just an abysmal mess for educating children?

[SheilaT]

7. There should be a minimal proficiency before graduation.

Anything else can be a completion diploma.

It's genuinely scary how many students graduate high school and head off to college with sub-college level skills. Something approaching 50% of all students entering college need remedial coursework in English and math. That should not be happening. A high school diploma and acceptance into college should be meaningful.

[mbperrin]

9. Well, of course, there should be some assurance that college instructors know anything about

teaching, since in all cases with which I am familiar, all they need is a content diploma - English, Electrical Engineering, whatever. Most go with their version of their favorite professor, which may or may not be good instruction.

I've always been puzzled at the strenuous requirements put on K-12 licensing while recent graduates are just turned loose with students in college. Success rates might increase with actual teaching expertise. I know that I had some professors with great content knowledge and absolutely no way for anyone but the most dedicated of their students to receive any benefit from it.

[Riftaxe]

13. In the last 15 years

The big money in universities is remedial education. At no level do i think that is a good thing.

I was fortunate enough to be too old before the bullshit of education degrees, my first degree out of the dugout, the prof who could teach the rest of them both knowledge and experience that the rest of the department envied, only had a 2 year degree and 23 years experience of working with electricity and electronics. That man would not be employable in an education setting these days.

Hell my worst experience in secondary education was screwing up and taking a course with the guy who wrote the text book (poorly). However that first guy with just 2 years of education taught me more then the rest of them combined in an engineering discipline.

[Sancho]

14. There have been complaints about the level of learning since Plato...

and there is no "6th grade level" that can be defined, or a least there is not one that everyone would agree on.

If you actually teach in today's schools, you'll see all kinds of kids speaking all kinds of languages with a wide variety of skills. Even though US public schools have always had the goal of creating a literate and numerate population, that has sometimes included teaching classics, latin, and logic. Handwriting is rapidly going away in today's world, while information searching is becoming a critical skill. There are a wide variety of sciences, languages, and fine arts in some schools. Home economics and shop used to be required, along with PE and geography. Many subjects that are required change over the years, along with the exact content taught under the same title. My mother's algebra class from the 1940's would look very different from today's technology driven version. I even used a slide rule in college science courses!!

A HS diploma is functionally a "certificate of participation" that shows completion of a certain number of years of school and finishing a given number of required classes. It is NOT an assurance of any particular skill level. Hopefully, the student learned enough to have a basis to continue learning either in the workplace or in higher education. About half the battle is simply learning to be a good student.

If you wanted to turn schools into a guaranteed skill level, you'd have to have absolute agreement on exactly what skills and knowledge everyone should be required to learn. That is virtually impossible.

[mbperrin]

19. Well said.

Thank you.