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question everything

(48,812 posts)
Sat Apr 17, 2021, 11:47 AM Apr 2021

New Investors Discover Tax Pitfalls of Robinhood and Other Trading Apps

(snip)

With 2020 tax bills coming due, a wave of new retail traders are waking up to the fact that it can be difficult, and often impossible, to make tax-minimizing moves on new brokerage platforms such as Robinhood, Webull, SoFi, Uphold and Public.com. Some don’t allow trading within tax-favored retirement accounts such as IRAs. Traders can also find it hard to track their “wash sales” that reduce tax benefits if they buy a stock within 30 days of selling the same stock at a loss. Most vexing for investors like Mr. Leong is that despite the new platforms’ sophisticated technology they don’t make it easy to deploy a tax-wise technique known as “specific-lot identification.” Investors use it to lower their taxes, sometimes significantly, by choosing which shares to sell if they have lots bought at different prices and aren’t selling all of them.

Here’s why this issue matters. Tax laws allow investors with taxable accounts to use the losses they incur when they sell a stock that’s dropped to offset the taxes on gains from the sales of stocks that have climbed. The losses can also offset up to $3,000 of other income, such as wages, each year. Unused losses carry forward for use against future gains and other income. The option of selling specific lots is readily available at traditional brokerage firms. But Webull, SoFi, Public and Uphold don’t allow it, and Robinhood makes it difficult. This fact shocks professional money managers.

(snip)

Smart use of specific-lot identification can minimize current tax bills. Say that a trader holds Tesla shares bought at $400, $650 and $850 apiece since mid-September, 2020. If this person decided to sell some of the winners at a recent price of $675, the taxable gain would be either $275 or $25 per share, depending on which shares were sold. That’s a big difference—and it’s even bigger if some $850 shares were sold, bringing a loss of $175 per share that could offset taxable gains.

(snip)

On Robinhood’s webpage about tax lots, the firm doesn’t tell customers they have the option of selling specific lots. Instead, it says sales will be on a first-in-first-out basis, known as FIFO, in which oldest shares are sold first. While FIFO could lower tax rates if the oldest shares have been held longer than a year, it might not. In the Tesla example above, FIFO would give the trader conceivably the worst outcome—a short-term gain of $275 per share, taxed at the rates for ordinary income like wages. In the fine print of trade confirmations sent to customers after they’ve sold shares, Robinhood does offer the option of specifying lots. But the process is complicated.

(snip)

Other new platforms don’t allow specific-lot ID at all. Both Webull and Public mandate FIFO for sales, while Uphold sells the most expensive shares available (called highest-in-first-out, or HIFO), and SoFi orders lots so that losers are typically sold before winners.

More..

https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-investors-discover-tax-pitfalls-of-robinhood-and-other-trading-apps-11618565406 (subscription)

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progree

(11,463 posts)
1. "Some don't allow trading within tax-favored retirement accounts such as IRA"
Sat Apr 17, 2021, 12:36 PM
Apr 2021

Incredible!!!!!!!! The thing I like most about IRAs besides the long-term tax benefits, is that one can reallocate between stocks and bonds without having to pay capital gains taxes. There's no tax penalty to buying or selling WITHIN an IRA.

progree

(11,463 posts)
3. I don't find specific lot identification easy even with the big-name brokerages (Vanguard, Fidelity,
Sat Apr 17, 2021, 01:02 PM
Apr 2021

Schwab) to name the three that I have accounts with. There's stuff about having to specify in writing in advance and all that, and if you ever sold some of a particular fund's assets and accepted the default average cost method, then you can't do the specific share identification thing on that fund in the future and all that. I haven't read the rules lately, but nothing I've seen has made it look like they've made it easier.

Nothing like what it should be -- check a little box for specific share identification -- and it pops up a window showing the various lots and the prices they were bought for with checkboxes next to each one that you can click to indicate you want to sell which lots -- no, nothing like that. Dunno why not, but they say life sucks and then you die.

Just a fair warning to anyone who thinks, "gee, I'm going to sell some shares today and use specific identification", nope, its going to take a lot longer and careful attention to all the rules. Unless you've done it before and got it all figured out, and have the "in advance, in writing thing" included in your time frame.

So far I haven't tried to use it -- basically I do my reallocations within IRAs so that capital gains aren't a factor. And I have a buffer intermediate bond fund in a regular account for when I need more money for my checking account, or, conversely, to invest surplus money from my checking account (so yes, selling from that bond fund will incur some capital gains, but it's minor compared to selling shares from a long-held equity fund).

question everything

(48,812 posts)
4. I used it in the 90s, before everything was automated
Sat Apr 17, 2021, 01:14 PM
Apr 2021

Last edited Sat Apr 17, 2021, 03:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I kept an account at Safeco for a family member but it was under my name. It started with several initial deposits and the rest was reinvested dividends and capital gains.

I used a spreadsheet (of course) where I would detail the date, the amount of investment and the share price.

This account was taxable to me, so I calculated how much of my taxable income and associated tax came from that account and sold shares to be reimbursed. And yes, I specified the shares to be sold to minimize the capital gain.

When I finally closed the account and redeemed all the shares, I used the same spreadsheet to calculate my taxable capital gain.

If I made any mistake, I've never heard about it..


progree

(11,463 posts)
5. That's good to hear -- I also have a spreadsheet with all the lots and what I paid for them
Sat Apr 17, 2021, 01:28 PM
Apr 2021

and whether the fund is a "virgin" or not -- if a "virgin", meaning I've never sold any shares from the fund -- then I can supposedly specify whatever share method (specific identification, LIFO, most expensive first, whatever). If it's something I've sold shares from before using some method, then it is a "non-virgin" and I have to stick to the method I've been using before on it.

(this just for stuff in my regular taxable accounts -- don't have to do this crap with IRA accounts).

It's just when I read the rules about the advanced stuff in writing and on and on that cause me to dread ever having to do the specific share identification process. But if the incentive is strong enough, and if I have enough time in advance before needing to make the sale, then I'll try to do that.

I also am still mad as hell at Schwab who changed their method of average cost accounting -- without telling us, they in effect broke our accounts into two parts - one part with pre-2012 shares, and the other part with 2012-and-after shares -- and they sold the pre-2012 shares first (which are the lowest-priced ones generally and in my case, leading to higher capital gains). I wrote them a long long email about that after I investigated all their arcane rules and rule changes and on and on.

So I'm having PTSD on the whole issue.

On edit - for stuff in regular accounts, I've turned off automatic reinvesting of dividends and other distributions, to make the cost-basis accounting easier. Periodically, when I have more cash in the account than I want (because of the distributions), then I make a decision on which fund(s) to invest that cash in.

Edited to add - yes, they've automated the figuring of cost basis beginning in 2012 for mutual funds -- and some other different years for other assets -- but I believe in TRUST BUT VERIFY so I still maintain my spreadsheets. And it turned out that the "TRUST" part was broken by Schwab as described above. Also, for shares bought pre-2012, they don't have cost basis info for that, so I had to supply that to them. It's now included in their cost-basis accounting, but they include a footnote on the statements that in essence say that the cost basis (of the pre-2012 shares) was supplied by client. Sigh.

Midnight Writer

(22,974 posts)
6. OMG! Investors are having to pay taxes on their profits? The horror!
Sat Apr 17, 2021, 01:58 PM
Apr 2021

The guy who hauls my garbage pays taxes on his meager income, why shouldn't "investors"?

I don't understand why investment income is more precious than wage income for people who bust their asses and get their hands dirty.

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