The Mythopoetic Movement

[Bonobo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men%27s_movement

I find myself very much in agreement with the basic tenets listed here.

------------------------
Foundations

The leaders of the mythopoetic men's movement believed that modernization had led to the feminization of men. Mythopoets believed that the rise of the urban industrial society "trapped men into straitjackets of rationality, thus blunting the powerful emotional communion and collective spiritual transcendence that they believe men in tribal societies typically enjoyed" (p. 20 Messner). Most importantly, the movement sought to restore the "deep masculine" to men who had lost it in their more modern lifestyles.

Other causes for the loss of the "deep masculine" include:
Men no longer being comrades who celebrated their masculinity together. Rather, they had become competitors within their workplaces.

Men spending more time in their houses with women than they did with men (in non-competitive terms outside of work). Excessive interaction with women generally kept men from realizing their internal masculinity.

Feminism bringing attention to the 'feminine voice.' Through this, the mythopoetic men felt that their voices had been muted (though Bly and others are careful in not blaming feminism for this).

The separation of men from their fathers kept them from being truly initiated into manhood, and was a source of emotional damage.

Men were suffering further emotional damage due to feminist accusations about sexism. Men should celebrate their differences from women, rather than feeling guilty about them.

Men being discouraged from expressing their emotions. Male inexpressivity is an epidemic and does not correspond to their "deep masculine" natures.

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. Mostly agree.

I don't know if it's nature or socialization, but my comfort level with "powerful emotional communion and collective spiritual transcendence" is not terribly high.

I do know that working in the boatshop with other guys is a refreshing and fulfilling activity. I also know that I'm grateful for having had the opportunity to live with and spend time with my dad. It was enriching even though it wasn't always fun and pleasant.

And you were absolutely right in the other thread about reclaiming language and embracing our differences.

[HuskiesHowls]

2. I agree with this fully.

Myths are not fairy tales. They are stories coming from the collective unconscious of the psyche, couched in imagery that is sometimes arcane and easily misunderstood. They can, if the imagery is understood, lead to learning about who we are, and how we got there. Reading and understanding myths can also help us find out why we're as screwed up as we are at times.

Robert A. Johnson's book He, for example, uses the Parisfal (also known as The Fisher King) myth to explain the trials and tribulations of becoming a psychologically healthier man. In my own case, it helped me to understand a relationship that went badly many years ago. I now understand the dynamics of that relationship, and how it has affected me to this day. And no, I didn't read the book once and have a big light come on, I read it many times over many years and have slowly come to see how my life is reflected in that book.

I recall some incidents that occurred between my Dad and I earlier in my life. I had often wondered how they affected me, and although knowing the underlying cause of these, I did not know how they affected him. Of course, I never thought about such things while he was still alive, and we could have talked them over. After reading several other myths, I know now how stressful a time it was for him, and how screwed up it left me. I eventually understood what the dynamics of things were, and that has helped me go forward.

As a catalyst for men to understand themselves, it can lead to a better society. When men, and women, become more aware of why they do what they do, they start to understand how society as a whole is affected. When that becomes clearer, human rights become more important. And to me, that is the aim of the mythopoetic movement.

[Bonobo]

3. Great post.

And yes, Jung, Campbell and many others understood well that myths are stories that reveal patterns of humanity that run across the multi-cultural spectrum. They reveal ourselves to ourselves. They allow us to see the obscured nature of ourselves.

Men have always had their own groups, undergoing initiation into manhood and joining the circle of elders is an important part, I think, of what is needed for a successful and healthy and continuing culture. Elder men share their wisdom and experience and mentoring.

I think the division between men can be seen in the lack of the above and, in a more micro way, by the lack of communal activity among men, the lack of sharing, caring and touching. It all speaks to a broken society that has become one of nuclear families and individuals rather than the collective.

[HuskiesHowls]

4. It seems that all of life forms groups, of one kind or another.

Usually, it is for the mutual benefit of the group. However, when young men form groups, without proper supervision and leadership, they become corrupted. These groups are not so much for mutual benefit, as much as they are for acceptance. We know them as "Gangs". Without proper grounding in what it means to be a man, how to live as a contributing part of society and how to accept the burdens and share the joys of being a man, destructiveness follows. Unfortunately, one man alone is not sufficient to teach even a small group of boys about what it means to be a man. It takes a diversity of personalities, abilities, and styles to teach even one boy or young man about manhood.

Its not easy to be a man. There are a lot of burdens put on men, that neither men nor women understand. Although a lot of men's groups are put down as "just going out in the woods and beating drums", there is a lot of hard mental work going on that can lead to a better life for all. Some people know and understand this. Unfortunately, not enough. Through men's groups like this one, with open and frank discussion, maybe more people-both women and men-will learn more about themselves.

One thing that women need to understand is that the Oedipus complex is real. All men have to deal with it, and if they don't, bad things happen. Its tricky to deal with, and how it is dealt with can affect a man for the rest of his life. If its dealt with badly, it can lead to a love-hate relationship with all women forever. If not dealt with, it is possible it would lead to violence against women.

There are no easy answers.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. Our society is notably lacking these sorts of initiation rituals, which can be integral to deeper

development.

Some of us still managed to find them anyway, though.

[TreasonousBastard]

6. I'm not sure this esteemed male bonding was all it was cracked up to be...

but I am certainly sure that while we have been doing a good job of bringing women into the fold and helping them reach their potential, we have forgotten to come up with positive changes for men in this new world.

The hunt, physical battles, the need for strength in work... all this is passing us by as our work becomes more cerebral and passive. Even war is a pushbutton game where, except for a few units, physical strength and endurance mean little any more.

So, as the old assumptions for a young boy's future fade away, what new plans do we have for him? Simply calling it feminization won't do-- whatever changes are made must be positive ones.

[Bonobo]

7. One thing at least seems clear to me.

When a boy was initiated and then became an adult, joining in the membership of the elder males, there has always been some sort of challenge to overcome. Through this challenge, the young man (boy) was forced to confront his fears and overcome them. Such challenges would reinforce the importance of learning the basic skills and ethics that would enable them to be successful adults and to gain the confidence needed to navigate the similar challenges facing them in the future.
In joining the "men's group", their connections, their dependence and the loyalty to the larger society would be reinforced in a tacit or explicit contract. The new promoted man would then be controlled to some degree by this new membership --and without such a thing, the male energy can be instead diverted in ways that are less healthy to the man himself and the society as a whole.

I think society needs to replace this kind of ritual entry into adulthood through some forms of ritual if we are to better channel male energy.

"Ritual has three specific characteristics. First, it occurs in a unique social space, set apart from everyday life. Second, communication operates through symbols and emotions rather than relying primarily on words or rational thought. In ritual, individuals learn by doing and utilize nonverbal communication. Third, ritual confirms and transforms people's worldviews, identities, and relationships with others."
http://www.beyondintractability.org/node/630

[Warren DeMontague]

8. I think we should have a scary initiation ritual for young men to join THIS group.

Hmmmm... like "run the grovelbot gauntlet"



Or maybe "Night of the spurious alerts"

[galileoreloaded]

9. completely disagree

in fraternity is where a man always had and always will find the idealized bond of emotional support and unconditional "love" that they require as unique emotional beings. its the only place they will ever escape conditional and transactional relationships, and thank GOD they are racing back onto the male radar screen as our cultural pendulum begins it slow arc back towards relational equity for men and women.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. That's an overly simplistic view of relationships- and people- I think.

I think you've managed to squeeze several silly presuppositions into that two sentence post.

[galileoreloaded]

11. maybe. but both the men and women i have coached

seem to fully engage the message when they are feeling their most vulnerable and emotionally bankrupt by our ill culture.

and for men specifically, i don't see a bunch of support or even a smidge of respect for the male experience over at HOF (which to me is a petrie dish of anti-male, anti equalist views infecting society to support an explicitly stated feminine imperative with no room for men except as draft horses).

maybe we see the map on the ground differently.

and to be clear before the MRA crap starts, sorry. I'm an equalist through and through. noone should be the farm animal or pet of another.

[Warren DeMontague]

12. I also don't actually think "the culture" is "ill"

I think there are fucked up attitudes, and certainly no small truckloads of stupidity on this planet, but what else is new? Despite much hand wringing about decline and decay and the inevitable falling of the sky, truth is things are better, getting better, looking better. Okay, atmospheric CO2 levels, not so much. But in terms of human, relational progress? Violence is down worldwide. Certainly the US is experiencing income disparity and the like, but globally the past few decades have seen the unprecedented emergence of a planetary middle class. Hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

Socially, attitudes in this country are way better than they used to be. A whole generation has come of age that feel LGBT equality is a natural progression of fairness and human rights. 100 years ago lynchings were commonplace.

Things are getting better.

Still, we hear an awful lot of words like "our ill culture". Interestingly enough, a lot of folks over in the group you mention, are fond of exactly that same sort of hyperbole.

Going back to your prior post- do you feel that all m/f relationships are inherently 'transactional'? That's a fairly bleak outlook.

As for the male experience, I agree with the OP- I think there are some elements of initiation ritual or culturally encouraged personal development which are missing from the Leave it to beaver 1950s nuclear family school-college-job cookie cutter mold. But the fact is, in the past not very many generations, the human race has undergone MASSIVE change and dislocation in terms of how we work, how we live, etc. It is a testament to our innate flexibility that we have adapted and changed as well as we have. Of course our institutions or cultural practices haven't caught up.

But as I alluded to upthread, I think there ARE those sorts of experiences for those who go look for them, or make them themselves. And that will continue, and grow.

[galileoreloaded]

13. ALL relationships are transactional.

and the fact that you don't think so speaks 100% to both your personal integrity but also a desire that relationships SHOULDN'T be. that is both a very moral, yet idealized view. i prefer to deal with things as they are, and adapt, vs. what they should be. that's a pikers bet that misandric feminists' play to their own destruction.

my (quite established) view.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Apparently you believe that there is an idealized sort of fraternal relationship that is not.

"Transactional" is a label, and while certainly one can engage in all sorts counting-angels-on-a-pin exercises trying to discern peoples' "real" motivations for all manner of things; like how much our behavior is clockwork, and how much orange, that sort of thing- I tend to view those exercises as sort of a waste of time. YMMV, of course.

I think unconditional (or relatively) altruistic love can and does exist, and deconstructing transactional, societal, or even evolutionary motivations "behind" it doesn't make it any less "real" IMHO.

In other words, are you a parent?

[galileoreloaded]

15. yes i am. and i have had to teach my son

as i had to learn, that myself (to some degree) and his mother, like my own mother, can never love him unconditionally. his aunts, grandparents, uncles and sisters though can.

but then he, like myself trends toward what most call "alpha" (i prefer sigma, alpha traits but deeply introverted) status and thats important.

when you are always pushing boundaries, you have to accept that one day that little (or big) boy just may not come back home and spouses and parents must learn to detach early. its just how evolution made us. imho.

dont count what isnt, and can never be. my view.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. I think you'e looking at some things through a particular lens that I don't have much use for.

But that's okay, that's why you're inside your head--- and not mine. Right?

[galileoreloaded]

17. maybe. it usually take me an hour of coaching to break the male ego.....

to accept a new worldview but this is the internet after all, and that's in person.. where the evidence is undeniable.

Eric Berne is always a great read and most men really grasp him quick. makes the transition easier.

with respect,

GR

[Warren DeMontague]

18. I'll stick with Korzybski, Wilson, Garcia and Hunter.

But thanks.

[galileoreloaded]

19. Understood. It's a bitter pill. Nt

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Mmmmm, I'm not sure it is.

Either one.

[HuskiesHowls]

21. I agree with you completely

Fraternity, brotherhood, whatever you want to call it, is necessary for men. Men need a sacred space, where they can be men, and talk as men. A space where we can talk about the things that we know of, things that are bothering us, about women in our lives, without a feminine viewpoint added. Men and women experience things differently, have different viewpoints, different priorities and that is why it is important that WE have space to unwind, to let down our hair.

Having been there, done that, have the books, I can say that it is a great cathartic moment in time when you can share the hurts that you have been hiding, and know that you're understood. You are free to share the anger, the pain you've known in your life, and know that others have felt the same way. To be able to actually show your emotions and not hear "Grown men don't cry" or "Don't worry, it'll be alright" is a great feeling.