What is your opinion on stay at home parents?

[Warren DeMontague]

Full disclosure: I've done both.. Worked and been the one to stay home. With babies and toddlers, in a situation with no extended family nearby, it is VERY hard I think to make it work, either on one income or with both working full time and juggling day care, etc.

Just curious how the Ann Romney flap sounds to you guys. I can say that I think that social policy in this country could go a long way towards mitigating some but not all of the difficulties many families face, a livable min. Wage, SPHC system and more sane parental leave policies like they have in Germany or France.

I also think that society has come a long way towards flexibility on familial roles and responsibilities.. As a SAHD there were times, even in my progressive corner of the country, when it was seen as "weird" but I think thats less so even than it was 10 yrs ago. Also, the economy has led to a lot of people doing whatever hey need to to make things work, sometimes meaning dads who would have made "mr. Mom" jokes now are themselves at home.

[Warren DeMontague]

1. I think that lots of people- of both genders- who don't have kids, simply don't get it.

I think there are widespread misconceptions about what the job- and yes, it is a job- of taking care of kids, particularly little ones, entails.

For one, it's not all just chauffeuring little skip or muffy to soccer or ballet. And you can't outsource the job, for instance, of caring for your one year old to your 4 year old.

Here's a stellar example: My wife, when our youngest was still a baby, became 'friends' with a woman in our neighborhood. I put friends in quotes because friendship, to this person, apparently meant being continuously available as a sounding board and dumping ground for emotional whingeing and self-pity. I'm sure we all know people like this woman; endlessly self-absorbed, in love with the sound of her own voice.. combative when challenged on even the most trivial point, to degrees of absurdity. A real piece of work.

Well, anyway, she used to like to comandeer my wife for long walks at which time she would vent, vent, vent and vent some more. One time, she "needed" this emotional outlet, and my wife had the baby. Had to bring baby with. Well, neighborhood woman had a giant, entitled tantrum, couldn't understand why my wife couldn't STOP being the mother of an infant for an hour so she could coddle an adult.

Ridiculous.

[opiate69]

2. I think it's a very hard, usually under-appreciated life choice.

My wife spent 7 years as a stay-at-home mom when our youngest was born. Financially, it was exceptionally tough on us, but we managed somehow. But, for the most part, it's a choice the vast majority of working class families can't afford to make.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Absolutely. The choices, if you can call them that, available to the rapidly vanishing middle class

are crappy and extra crappy.

Sometimes the financial gain by having a 2nd income is completely offset by child care costs; and then, you have unforseen circumstances, furlough days from school, etc. etc.

Like I said, I think in this thread- what we really need is a social commitment and contract to support and nurture families. A true, livable min. wage. Family leave like they have in Europe. A SPHC system.

THOSE are real family values, IMHO.

[opiate69]

4. Couldn't agree more..

The older I get, the more I realize my ideology can probably be best described as "Scandinavian Socialist", and a large part of that is the value they put on the working class and families. Education, Wages, health care, family leave, medical leave, etc. Far and away better than the "go to school, amass crushing debt, gain employment which will nominally pay off said debt, work til you're too old to enjoy retirement, then die" model we seem to have here.

[loli phabay]

15. wife stays home

we made a cultural choice when we got married that my wife would stay home and be a homemaker and then a mother, financially we would be better off with her working, but we make sacrifices in order to maintain what we believe is the best situation for the kids and for us.

[tech_smythe]

5. Hardest job in the world

but most rewarding too.

I think the flap is... interesting.
I think the words were poorly chosen, and really needed to be couched carefully.

A caller to The Stephanie Miller show (a former nanny/maid for ann) said while a sweet girl, she's never worked at anything in her life.
she's had so many maids, cooks, et al, that it's unlikely that her "stay at home" is hardly a chore for her.

She's fucking rich, I'd be surprised if she was doing the majority of the raising and care-taking of her kids.

But actual stay-at-home parents... that's a rough job.

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. I've done both too. Prefer staying at home. It is better in every way, even with a disabled child.

So now I work from home. Being home for my youngest is my highest and best use, it is far more important to his wellbeing than simply bringing home a paycheck. But it is also more rewarding, flexible and easier than putting up with a boss.

The problem is the sexist and classist double standard.

Stay at home moms -> Working moms -> Working dads -> Pets who can do interesting tricks -> Stay at home dads -> Stay at home Moms on public assistance -> Vermin -> Non custodial parents -> bacteria -> dads on public assistance.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

7. The Ann Romney flap is a red herring

There is no comparison between a family making the kind of money the Romneys do and the average working class family. The GOP is being intentional obtuse as to what the issue is as usual.

If my wife made six figures and we could live comfortably without worry for their future, I'd happily stay at home with the kids. I'd certainly look into supplementing our income with projects that could be done at home. But most people can't do that. I think it's a worthy discussion to have, because the Republicans lose on it every time, but they've turned this into their usual pout fest about personal attacks and the media.

[Warren DeMontague]

8. Of course it's a red herring. And of course the point Hillary Rosen was making was ECONOMIC.

Still, while the options for most working Americans (ie not the Romneys) are shit and shittier when it ones to child care, there are a couple points:

One, whatever the intent, it came off as snotty and judgmental, and like Rommey saying "I like to fire people", there's no good way to explain or spin it. Admit it was a dumb thing to say, and move on.

Two, This tired line about "ooh, it must be so nice to be able to just stay home", or that parents who stay at home are "dropping out" or they stay home because "gee, who wouldn't want to sit around all day and not have a job". It's bullshit, and frankly, as someone who has done both and seen many other people who have done both, there is not a single one I've ever met- a parent who went from a stay at home with little kids gig to a regular workaday gig, or vice versa, who hasn't said "Shit... The so-called actual job was way easier".

I know some people, particularly non-parents, like to roll their eyes and imagine that those sorts of things are made-up, self-justifying platitudes spouted by parents who are soaking in Calgon baths all day, maybe taking a brief break to chauffer their budding consumer units to some totally unnecessary, expensive lesson, all the while holding a palm up to their brow and sighing about how difficult it is.

But the TRUTH- the truth for stay at home parents (who aren't the Romneys) is that it IS seriously hard work. "Oh, you're your own boss", some say. No, your boss is a psychotic leprechaun that needs you to wipe its ass. And speaking of which, at your actual job that is really a job as opposed to what lazy stay at home parents do, if you need to go to the bathroom during the day, does your boss follow you into the can and demand things from you while you're trying to take a dump?

(Please note that this rant is based on some of the blabber that's been floating around pertaining to stay at home parents, none of this is directed at YOU. )

And the fact of the matter is, for many families- many NON wealthy families- it makes SENSE for one parent to stay home. Often that's the mom, sometimes the dad. More sense financially, more sense logistically, and sure as shit more sense in the fact that no, many parents are not comfortable and ready to hand off their 6 month infant to a total stranger for 50 hours or so a week, if not more. Many parents want more time with their little ones, and many parents feel that it is important. Certainly, many parents can't make that work... but there are also many parents that wouldn't make enough in the 2nd income to cover day care, or other attendant child care expenses.

The idea that stay at home parents are somehow lazy, or not really working, or that somehow staying at home is just a luxury of the idle rich. None of these are remotely close to the facts.

[Tumbulu]

9. please forgive my intrusion into your group

I just wanted to say " I agree with you so much !!!!!!".

I am frankly still quite upset with what I read over in the group that I participate in.

I share your view that one really has to be a parent to understand the enormity of the job/career/responsibility.

I was not a parent until I was 45 years old...and despite the fact that I had put myself through college babysitting and being a nurse's aid at a convalescent hospital (among my many jobs) then it was like "OH MY GOD - HOW DID EVERYONE MAKE IT LOOK SO EASY?!!!!! Is it just me that is a complete idiot?????!!!!"

And I find it ludicrous that it is somehow considered -at least by some- sort of feminist ideal to NOT be the stay at home parent- as though a mother staying home with children is some sort of failure or cop out. I spent a lot of time trying to express my feelings about this over in the other group and felt that your questions were mischaracterized.

I appreciate every parent who makes the sacrifices to make time to tend to their children, all of us doing it in so many ways should respect each other.

Thanks, I'll go back now.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. I can't speak for the entire group, but I like to think that this place welcomes diverse voices

and views.

I was flabbergasted by some of the stuff I read yesterday. You know what I mean.

I agree w/ you 100%. And I respect and support the choices of ALL people, however they structure their lives. The area where these issues cross into the political realm, to my mind, is structuring society and the work-life balance so that we are more family-friendly. A SPHC system, livable min. wage, real family leave for whichever parent chooses to do the child care. That sort of thing.

Peace.

[Whisp]

16. good post and interesting thread.

What I wouldn't do to go back and have more time with my little beanie when she was a little beanie. Not working wasn't even a glimmer of a thought, there was no option. :sigh:

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Exactly.

Being compelled to be a parent in only the financial sense isn't power, it's helplessness.

[tech_smythe]

11. Stay at home parents should get a FAT Soc. Sec Bonus

as if they were working a 100k job.. but were never actually paid.
I would also give a stay at home parent a couple $K a year in a return as if they had paid that from their "pay check"

It's always struck me as unfair that stay at home mom n dads get penalized for doing WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR SOCIETY and the species to continue.

Granted a lot of the people who would get this credit are rich, but a TON of them are in the 99% too.

I'm ok giving the rich fucks a tax credit if it means that everyone else gets it too.

Edit:
I suppose as an after thought. you would "subtract" any money that person DID make in that year from the 100k... the Soc Sec bonus at the end will be the same, but if they did some work that paid like 200k (stay at home lawyer for example, who only works a dozen weeks a year) they would then "loose" the credit and pay taxes normally with a 100k deduction (because being a parent is still hard)

Of course any nanny costs would eliminate the bonus (assuming a good nanny costs 100k)

just a thought

[Tumbulu]

14. I like your thought (nt)

[Broderick]

12. With my wife starting her own business

the at home part of raising the kids will shift enormously to me. I admire all the work she did raising them. They are too young for pre-school yet. We will have them in a pre-preschool for some hours per day, and my business can take care of itself a lot of the time and what I do do, I can bring home much of it. I think being at home all day with them like I do on the weekends so she could study or at night can be exhausting, more so than being at work stressed out. Sometimes I got to the office on Monday to recoup. LOL

A stay at home parent is wonderful in my opinion, if a family can afford to do it. I was fortunate that my mother was a stay at home parent. Many families can afford to do it, but choose not to because the lust for "things" overrides all. But many can't afford the basics to raising children if both parents don't work, and it has to be so difficult for single parents. I get upset by the number of parents I come into contact that are single parents who get nada from the child's other parent. Most are women.

Just my humble opinion. No political commentary in this one because I don't feel political today.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. I agree with everything you've written.. I won't judge the choices people make, be that to both work

or for one to stay home, whatever.

Different families have to find what works for them, logistically, financially and in terms of what makes them comfortable. I respect anyone who can make it work, especially in this economy, because it's tough.

And yes, I have deep respect for single parents, my mom was one.