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Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:58 AM Jan 2013

If the notion of masculinity is to be reconsidered...

It should be done by men, not by feminists. Masculinity is not a dirty word and men need to take back the concept of "strength" and "power" from its purely negative associations and remember that for thousands of years it has also been men's strength that protected and maintained the safety of our loved ones --male strength is not just an expression of violence that some seem to make it.

I would never consider it a "Men's issue" to discuss whether the concept of femininity should be reconsidered. Naturally anyone is free to discuss what they want, but I think men's issues should be discussing how men deal with things and women's should be with how women deal with things. Demanding change from each other is both futile and flame-seeking.


24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If the notion of masculinity is to be reconsidered... (Original Post) Bonobo Jan 2013 OP
Strength and power are just tools, how they're used is a choice. Denninmi Jan 2013 #1
Frankly, I think the lecturing and hectoring gets old. Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #2
I don't think feminists should be telling men what "masculinity" should look like. MadrasT Jan 2013 #3
I agree with everything you've written in this post. Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #7
From the article which kicked this... response... off: redqueen Feb 2013 #9
Ever hear the phrase "it's not about you"? Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #11
A thread about an article titled "Changing the Notion of Masculinity" is posted in a feminist group redqueen Feb 2013 #12
Like I said, please don't bring external drama into this group. Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #13
All my previous post did was explain the reason for the misunderstanding. redqueen Feb 2013 #14
It's not a misunderstanding. It's a difference of opinion. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #15
Feminists aren't doing that. American men are. redqueen Feb 2013 #16
According to you. Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #18
I didn't kick a thread. I shared a link to a video of American men talking about what they call redqueen Feb 2013 #19
Oh, a man said it, that must mean it's true about men. Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #20
Re-read the posts. redqueen Feb 2013 #21
If that's the case, my opinion as a man that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with men as a Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #22
You're mixing up words. No one said anything was "wrong with *men*"... redqueen Feb 2013 #23
That's awfully generous of you, to allow that someone might disagree with a broad "critique" of Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #24
Exactly right. Exactly, exactly right. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #4
Except in a few state legislatures. n/t Gore1FL Feb 2013 #5
Good point. Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #6
Even this. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #17
Heck, it's even funnier considering.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #8
You don't get to define me, but I am *entitled* to define you! Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #10

Denninmi

(6,581 posts)
1. Strength and power are just tools, how they're used is a choice.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:04 AM
Jan 2013

Good or bad, it's up to each to decide how they want to go about things in life.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
2. Frankly, I think the lecturing and hectoring gets old.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:49 AM
Jan 2013

I'm of the old school of thinking that, at the end of the day, growth is an internal process; it works that way for people like it does for nations- (which renders, except in the most extreme of circumstances, the notion of "liberating" a country through invasion and war ridiculous) ... you don't get the goose out of the bottle, the goose has to get itself out.

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
3. I don't think feminists should be telling men what "masculinity" should look like.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:47 PM
Jan 2013

The aspect of this that I think is valid for feminists to discuss is that women need to be aware of their expectations about what they think "masculinity" should look like, and give men space to express themselves in a variety of ways. (And I am speaking of all women, not just feminists.)

Every man is unique and there is no right way to be masculine (or to "be a man&quot either.

(I really even hate the words "feminine" and "masculine" but that is a rant for another day.)

If men wanted to talk about how the concept of femininity should be reconsidered, and the tone of that discussion was along the lines of "we need to give women more space to not feel like they are required to be soft, warm, nurturing, caring, pretty, gentle, and delicate" (the intent being to give women space to be released from the stereotypical definitions of femininity), I would think that was a great conversation for men to have.

Demanding change is surely futile and counterproductive, we are in full agreement there. But conversations that are primarily about allowing space for others to change don't seem wrong to me.

GOOD: "Gender role changes are OK, let's talk about that" makes me

BAD: "Gender role changes are required, let's talk about that" makes me

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
7. I agree with everything you've written in this post.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 01:42 AM
Feb 2013

I, for one, support the right of everyone to self-actualize as they see fit; to define themselves as opposed to letting themselves be defined, etc.

Your phrasing is right on target.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
9. From the article which kicked this... response... off:
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 10:38 AM
Feb 2013
“To stop violence, you need to prevent it from happening,” said Somsouk Sananikone, a civil society activist from Laos, speaking after a recent training workshop in Bangkok, where he was one of about 30 civil society participants from eight Asian and Pacific nations, including Indonesia, Fiji and Mongolia. The event was organized by Partners for Prevention, a U.N. interagency program aimed at ending gender-based violence.

...

The question is, “How are you supposed to be a man in society?” asked James Lang, the program coordinator of Partners for Prevention , in a recent interview in Bangkok.

...

At the Partners for Prevention event in Bangkok, Mr. Otgonbaatar and others discussed strategies on how to counter bullying and how to mobilize society. But the challenges run deeper than that. As in Mongolia and Laos, the vocabulary of gender is differently expressed, where it exists at all, he said.

...


I guess the problem that a few people seem to have is that the article is even being discussed by feminists.

Which is ironic, considering.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
11. Ever hear the phrase "it's not about you"?
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:52 PM
Feb 2013

Please don't bring external drama into this group. Bonobo's OP can be debated on its own merits.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
12. A thread about an article titled "Changing the Notion of Masculinity" is posted in a feminist group
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 01:04 PM
Feb 2013

and shortly after, this thread titled "If the notion of masculinity is to be reconsidered..." is posted here, with the subject being how awful it is for feminists to discuss the idea of the need for masculinity to be reconsidered.

Yes, pure coincidence I guess. Mea culpa.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
13. Like I said, please don't bring external drama into this group.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 01:17 PM
Feb 2013

If one's only purpose in coming into the group is to look for fights, they should probably avoid the group.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
14. All my previous post did was explain the reason for the misunderstanding.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 01:39 PM
Feb 2013

Mea culpa for that, too, I guess.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
15. It's not a misunderstanding. It's a difference of opinion.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:05 PM
Feb 2013

Like Warren said, Bonobo's OP stands on its own.

It is presumptuous for american feminists to use a meeting in Bangkok as an justification to diagnose and treat the disease of american masculinity.

Beyond that, it isn't about you.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
18. According to you.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:32 PM
Feb 2013

And thank you, again, for coming into the group and advising us on how you believe men ought to inventory and repair the myriad defects we apparently all have, by trying to kick a 10 month old thread that you, again, posted.



redqueen

(115,164 posts)
19. I didn't kick a thread. I shared a link to a video of American men talking about what they call
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:34 PM
Feb 2013

a crisis.

So no, it isn't just "according to me", the evidence is right there. And in many other countries as well.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
20. Oh, a man said it, that must mean it's true about men.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:36 PM
Feb 2013

Sort of like how every fart that comes out of the mouth of Phylis Shlafly on the topic of women is authoritatively true, based on the fact that she's got ovaries.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
21. Re-read the posts.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:50 PM
Feb 2013

Jeff said: "It is presumptuous for american feminists to use a meeting in Bangkok as an justification to diagnose and treat the disease of american masculinity."

It follows logically that my next post was a contradiction of his assertion that it is "American feminists" who are diagnosing masculinity.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
22. If that's the case, my opinion as a man that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with men as a
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:58 PM
Feb 2013

category, ought to trump your opinion that there is.

Right?

But I'm sorry the thread that you posted here, 10 months ago, did not garner the reception and reaction you hoped for.

redqueen

(115,164 posts)
23. You're mixing up words. No one said anything was "wrong with *men*"...
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 05:05 PM
Feb 2013

What these men are critiquing is masculinity. If you disagree with that, fine.

My only point in this thread is that it is, indeed, MEN doing the critiquing.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
24. That's awfully generous of you, to allow that someone might disagree with a broad "critique" of
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 06:32 PM
Feb 2013

"masculinity". Gee, Thanks!

I realize that some people seem to feel they're placed on Earth to "critique" the behavior or thoughts or activities of others, my point in the thread is that, like the Zen riddle, the goose gets itself out of the bottle. Furthermore, I don't feel the video you linked to, 10 months ago, was or is particularly relevant to the ACTUAL experience of being an ACTUAL man, which in my experience differs greatly from the 2 dimensional imaginary puppet shows, populated by strawmen, stereotypes, and imagination-figments which seem to crop up in these overwrought, hand-wringing "sociological critiques".

Edit: Correction, 13 Months ago.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
4. Exactly right. Exactly, exactly right.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:50 PM
Jan 2013

Using a men's advocacy group to identify what's wrong with women and decide how it should be fixed would not pass muster in any rational world.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
17. Even this.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:23 PM
Feb 2013

Republicans in congress have very clear ideas of what femininity is (albeit perverted, distorted, stifling and archaic) and they want to promote their view of it as a virtue.

On the other hand, most feminists don't visualize "masculinity" in positive terms at all. Their views on the topic are just as distorted, but are instead negative.

Republicans visualize a Norman Rockwell painting representing femininity as a goal. Feminists visualize a petri dish with an anthrax culture representing masculinity as a disease.

For the same reason that we should never elect someone who says that "government can't do anything well", no man should accept a definition of masculinity from a person who thinks it's an epithet.



ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
8. Heck, it's even funnier considering....
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 09:28 AM
Feb 2013

....I saw the phrase "You don't get to define me" used just the other day....

And I agree with that statement....I wish others could take heed.

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