I know a woman who hugs without asking all the time.

[Bonobo]

In fact, even the first time I met her, she turned down a handshake, saying "I don't do handshakes, I do hugs".

She acts like bestowing a hug on people is a gift. She doesn't seem to care if it is wanted or not. Is she "taking" a hug because she enjoys it, or is she "bestowing a hug" because she thinks it is desirable to receive her hug.

Lots of women think seem to assume that their physical contact is some kind of prize to be doled out.

They often do not ask for permission. I was reminded of this when I read the post about the WW2 photo.

I suppose someone will tell me it does not matter if they force this kind of unwanted physical touching because there is no threat of physical force as is the case when a man does it. This may or may not be true, but I think the idea that women tend, more then me, to think they are offering a desirable gift is suggestive as the difference and one of the problems inherent in the male-female power dynamic.

[caraher]

1. There are also men who hug

Certainly someone who insists on hugging the reluctant rather than accepting a handshake is making it all about their own personal preference at the expense of the comfort of someone else. There should be respect for the wishes of the other person. I've seen both men and women do this, though certainly more women than men.

But I don't lose sleep over this any more that I ever did over that nurse in the photo from the end of WWII. And having a few rogue serial huggers around isn't all bad - some people who could use that human contact but would never initiate it themselves probably do benefit from it.

I'm sure it does get old quickly, though, if you run across a compulsive hugger like that and are uncomfortable with that much physical contact.

[4th law of robotics]

2. Rape culture

that's why she thinks this is acceptable. Movies, television, etc all show that this is acceptable behavior. That a man's body isn't his own and that men really like to be assaulted in this way (if they struggle you just have to hold on harder, they really like it).

Why ask for permission? Men exist in a perpetual state of "yes".


Any sort of physical, spoken, or visual interaction should require explicit consent from both individuals plus a witness before it can proceed.

Everything else is assault or worse.

[MadrasT]

3. I hate huggers who don't ask.

Male or female. It isn't right to hug without permission.

I agree with everything you wrote.

[4th law of robotics]

4. Would you consider it sexual assault?

[NYC_SKP]

6. No, but it is the definition of harassment.

I completed a mandatory periodic training just yesterday.


Unwanted and repeated touching or hugging is harassment.


Touch the naughty bits, even once, it might be assault.

[4th law of robotics]

7. I have a feeling man would have a hard time

pressing charges against a female hugger.

[Major Nikon]

8. It would be quite difficult to establish a legal case for that

The first legal hurdle for a sexual harrassment complaint to be successful is establishing prima facie. If you can't establish prima facie, your case gets dropped and you are SOL. In order to establish prima facie, you have to show the following elements:

1.He or she suffered intentional, unwanted discrimination because of his or her sex.
2.The harassment was severe or pervasive.
3.The harassment negatively affected the terms, conditions or privileges of his or her work environment.
4.The harassment would detrimentally affect a reasonable person of the same sex.
5.Management knew about the harassment, or should have known, and did nothing to stop it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_environment_sexual_harassment

If the person is hugging members of both genders, #1 can't be met. If there was no adverse impact to the employee, #3 can't be met. Now if they were having to go home due to stress, or seek medical attention, or something along those lines, this can be met, but it's hard to imagine someone doing that over a non-sexual hug. #4 is the reasonable person standard. It's not enough for the person to be detrimentally affected. A judge or civil court would have to decide that a reasonable person would be simularly affected.

The training you got was designed to convince you that the legal bar for sexual harrassment is low. It's not. It's actually quite high. However, a smart employer is going to take action well before the legal bar is met out of self interest if for no other reason. Sexual harrassment complaints are costly to defend, even if the employer prevails.

[Major Nikon]

5. I work with a woman who calls me honey and darling

She knows fully well that I'm a manager that investigates sexual harassment complaints. There is no sexual intent, so I'm not offended by it. I've actually investigated a few workplace huggers with two very different results. Some do it with a clear sexual intent which is clearly wrong and we will take necessary corrective action in those instances. Others do it for cultural reasons which doesn't result in discipline. Some people just don't like to be touched by people they are not intimate with and there's nothing wrong with that, but most people accept it when there is no sexual intent, even if they don't initiate it themselves. I can't agree that all unsolicited hugs are wrong unless someone is clear about their objection to it and the person does it anyway, but I do understand why some people think otherwise.