is there actually people who believe that all men are rapists and attracted to little girls

[loli phabay]

just read something on another forum that made me realise that some people do think this crap, well the vast majority of guys dont go around raping women no matter how some people seem to think they do, the vast majority of guys are not lusting after every middle aged women they see trying to bed them, the vast majority of guys dont find little girls attractive. I seriously think some of these crazed ideas are, well im not going to say it.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. No.

[Upton]

2. I think it's more like all men are "potential" rapists..

which I guess is technically true, but you could say the same thing about anybody, any gender, and any crime or action..

Then, there's stuff like this..

Feminist writer Marilyn French from her book The Women's Room"...

Whatever they may be in public life, whatever their relations with men, in their relations with women, all men are rapists and that's all they are. They rape us with their eyes, their laws, their codes.

http://www.answers.com/topic/marilyn-french

Now, admittedly it's a novel, but one that was hailed as a ground breaker for women's rights by such people as Gloria Steinem. I'd like to think no one has the view expressed in the quote, but I believe we both know better..

[Warren Stupidity]

3. that is a novel, and what you posted is a literary device known as hyperbole.

Now back to reality. 99% of rapists are men. Should the men's group at least start from acknowledging that rape is a problem with male behavior, that rape is a huge social problem, and that we men should do something about fixing it? That it is our responsibility to change? If we can agree on that we could then discuss how to change a culture in which rape is pervasive.

[Upton]

5. Since we're throwing out numbers..

How about we start with acknowledging that 99.9% of men AREN'T rapists. Btw, where in the Men's Group has someone suggested that actual rape is not a problem?

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Nobody will up and say rape isnt a problem.

But I will refer you to a recent now locked thread here that illustrates a massive and willful ignorance of a societal issue with they way men (and no, not all men) interact with women in public.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=2705

Which thread sparked a directly related conversation over in hof:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=9148

And then at least four more related threads here, most of which are proud displays of willful ignorance by men here in this group that there really is a problem with sexism in society.

Yes 99.9% of us, although I doubt you have a statistic for that, are not rapists. And yet rape is a male problem, a problem with the way men behave in society. It is our problem. We should do something about it. The frequency of rape is unacceptable.

On edit:
Actually 99.9 is probably an unsustainable assertion on your part. 1 in 6 women have a rape event in their lives. That is 16% of women. You sure about that 99.9% 'not rapists' number?

[loli phabay]

7. okay rape is a problem. and proving rape is a problem

Due yo what you would define as rape ie what is consent personally i think the bdsm community have it right consent is very definite and what goes is defined and no is granite. Now there are some wjo dont listen but then thats rape.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. ipad much?

I'm sorry but your posts are approximately unintelligible. Are you objecting to the rape frequency statistics? Are you making a claim that rape, which is widely considered to be a vastly under-reported crime, is in fact over reported?

Seriously?

[4th law of robotics]

10. You equated a man who talked to a woman in an elevator with a serial killer/rapist

People were disagreeing with you not because they're ok with rape but because that comparison is absurd.

Then you made the equally absurd claim that the only acceptable social interaction between a man and a woman would be via a formal introduction by a mutual friend or in bars specifically dedicated to the purpose. Although presumably once they exit the bar they would immediately stop interacting (talking to a woman in a parking lot? Kinda rapey).

[Warren Stupidity]

16. no i did not, you said that, I didn't.

I'll say what I actually said yet again: many women go through what I labeled a "rapist/ax-murder calculus" with every stranger encounter. They have to. 16% of them have a rape experience. 3-5% of college women have a rape experience annually. They have to carefully evaluate the threat level of every public space encounter, every male interaction in any situation that can become physically threatening, like for example an elevator at 4am.

You keep saying that I am equating propositioning strange women in elevators with being a rapist. I'm not, I'm saying that women have a life experience that you are not even attempting to understand. Maybe you should cultivate your empathy, or is that too unmanly for you?

[4th law of robotics]

17. You can look at a random person for a few seconds and determine her entire life-experience

including all the triggers that might force her to relive a terrible experience?

Perhaps you should write a book. That is knowledge that should be spread around.

And are you sticking by your claim that it is inappropriate to hit on a woman outside of the two scenarios you defined? Because if so that means most relationships are unacceptable.

[MadrasT]

23. 4th law...

A woman doesn't have to have "triggers" that are forcing her to relive a horrible experience.

Living in the world as a woman, knowing how many women are victims of actual rape (even if we personally haven't been), makes us walk through the world always alert, always vigilant, always wary.

I think being alone in an elevator with an unknown man at 4 a.m. is SCARY for most women. Even for women who haven't ever been raped themselves. (It's scary for me, and I have never been raped by a stranger.)

[4th law of robotics]

28. Perhaps there should be men's and women's elevators

If a person sees a black guy in the elevator and immediately responds with fear because he's black . . . what would that make him? Bear in mind he may have had a bad experience that started exactly this way.

Or if he saw a muslim on an airplane and immediately assumed "hijacker". Would he be a bigot?

Take any other group and apply this logic to them. That would be textbook bigotry. Would it not?

[Warren Stupidity]

30. again you just trivialize the problem.

No there shouldn't separate elevators. Instead men should start redefining what is acceptable behavior and what isn't. We should change the culture, not the elevators.

[4th law of robotics]

32. Raping women in elevators is not considered acceptable

where are you getting this stuff?

No one, at any point on here, said it would be acceptable to rape that woman. Most agreed that he was in poor taste and had he pressed the issue he would clearly have been in the wrong.

So again, what are you getting at?

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. The gulf in male perceptions isn't "rape is/isn't a problem".

It's better illustrated by your comment.

men should start redefining what is acceptable behavior and what isn't. We should change the culture, not the elevators.

It's up to you to explain to us how you can believe that men in general:
a) believe rape is acceptable behavior.
b) collectively, and without any input from women create the culture in which it is.
c) despite having created a legal system in which the crime is treated harshly upon conviction.

Unlike any other crime, men who are accused of rape have a very high hurdle to clear to prove their innocence (see Crystal Mangum).

Up until this post, I was listening. I do agree that it's important to understand how women's perceptions of the world affect them. I don't agree that I'm responsible for the behavior of every man, nor have I created a culture in which rape is acceptable.

[Warren Stupidity]

45. (b) is the one I take issue with.

Is your claim here that we are not a patriarchal culture?

I start from we are in fact a patriarchal culture, this is a male dominated society. This is about as controversial to me as racism or homophobia. There is white privilege and there is male privilege and there is hetero privilege. This social system of ours is dominated by white men who claim to be heterosexual.

But my point is not "rape is acceptable behavior", my point is that rape is stunningly frequent and we should do something about that. One suggestion I have is that we should change the cultural norms for acceptable behavior with respect to women in public. Every time I try to get you all to understand why this would be a good idea, a lot of people here seem to think I am calling them rapists or equating overt sexual propositions with rape. Overt sexual propositions to complete strangers are RUDE, but they aren't rape. Is that clear? They are an invasive intrusion into somebody else's space, and are, in my opinion, appropriate only in circumstances where it is clearly understood that this is expected. The behavior is rude precisely because we have A HUGE PROBLEM WITH RAPE. I don't know how to get through to you all that the women receiving these uninvited advances CANNOT DETERMINE WHICH SORT OF MAN YOU ARE. In fact I give up.

Keep it up men, this is the world you have made, no problem, nothing wrong, no need to change.

Trumad may have had a point about this group.

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. Point by point

Is your claim here that we are not a patriarchal culture?

No, but I think you're confused about what the patriarchy entails. The violence against women act (in which the sentence is determined based on the gender of the victim), the male only draft, the fact that 92% of workplace fatalities are men, the preferential treatment given to women in school are all dependent on one basic social principle: women's lives are more valuable, and that men are comparatively dispensible.

That's the patriarchy. Men make the decisions on how best to protect the women. Rape isn't sanctioned by the patriarchy and never was.

I start from we are in fact a patriarchal culture, this is a male dominated society. This is about as controversial to me as racism or homophobia.

I disagree, and looking at any meaningful statistic of collective social health, men are at the bottom of the list. If it's a male dominated society, it manifests itself in odd ways. Men get less education, go to jail, commit suicide, die on the job, are more likely to be unemployed, die of preventable causes and are victims of violence more often than women. Is the fact that blacks suffer all of the previous social problems relative to whites, evidence of their dominant role?

But my point is not "rape is acceptable behavior", my point is that rape is stunningly frequent and we should do something about that. One suggestion I have is that we should change the cultural norms for acceptable behavior with respect to women in public. Every time I try to get you all to understand why this would be a good idea, a lot of people here seem to think I am calling them rapists or equating overt sexual propositions with rape. Overt sexual propositions to complete strangers are RUDE, but they aren't rape. Is that clear? They are an invasive intrusion into somebody else's space, and are, in my opinion, appropriate only in circumstances where it is clearly understood that this is expected. The behavior is rude precisely because we have A HUGE PROBLEM WITH RAPE. I don't know how to get through to you all that the women receiving these uninvited advances CANNOT DETERMINE WHICH SORT OF MAN YOU ARE. In fact I give up.

My approach toward "doing something" about the crime of rape is identical to my approach toward doing something about bank robbery or murder. Support laws that inflict appropriate punishments on the perpetrators.

But to you that's obviously not enough. Maybe if I rend my garments, gnash my teeth loudly, and proclaim my culpability for the criminal behavior of others, stupid frat boys won't risk prison by having sex with drunk girls.

Keep it up men, this is the world you have made, no problem, nothing wrong, no need to change.

According to at least one study, the incidence of rape has declined 85% in the last 30 years.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=913013

Is that "the world I have made"? If so, maybe a little credit is due.

One last point. In the men's group there won't be universal agreement on any issue. The above is my view, to which I am as entitled as you are to yours. It is not about doctrine, it is about what interests you.

[Bonobo]

11. Rape is a tremendous problem.

And yes, men are responsible for it.

Having said that, your suggestion that men stop trying to ask girls out unless they are first "introduced to them" through a mutual friend or go to special bars for meeting people was patently absurd. I would like you to respond to this post I made in that (self-locked0 thread.
---------------------------

Here is a "scenario" for you to consider.

A man gets in an elevator. Inside is an attractive woman. She is standing near the buttons. She is attractive and knows it. She also knows that men think she is attractive.

The man goes to the rear of the elevator and turns to face the doors as all people do. He is now behind her. There is tension. She feels his eyes on her back or imagines she does. Her shoulders tense.

He is attracted to her but aware of the unease in her body language. The silence continues and onlys erves to increase the tension. He knows she is feeling uncomfortable and he, in turn, feels uncomfortable to be thought of as a "potential rapist".

"Do I not say anything? Isn't it creepy to be so silent? Maybe I should break the ice?"

He tries it. "Hey, it sure is hot out there?" he says. "Haven't I seen you around before?"

He made the remarks, he thinks, to both break the tension and to show that he works here and is not some random stranger.

------------------------------------------
What do you think of this interaction? Did he do the right thing? The wrong thing?
Was he aware of her feelings? Was she aware of his?

I think many people could interpret this in different ways.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. Treat the attractive strange woman as you would any other stranger.

There is a continuum between "good morning" and "hey babe nice tits wanna fuck?". The aborted discussion was specifically about "hitting on women", about propositioning strangers, not about saying hello. My assertion, and I stand by it, is we men should just stop thinking that propositioning strange women in public spaces is acceptable behavior. Of course I then had to qualify public spaces, as again the conversation was not about social situations such as parties and bars where a different set of rules apply.

What I find astounding in these discussions is a professed lack of any awareness at all that many women find random sexual propositions from strangers threatening. Lots of "hey but I'm not a rapist so my behavior can't be threatening" bullshit. Which is why this discussion has to come back to rape, rape statistics, and the experience of being a woman in a society where rape is so fucking prevalent. We should grow the fuck up. Is that too much to ask?

[Bonobo]

33. You layed out an awful lot of straw.

The discussion was about an offer for coffee. This cannot be equated with "Hey babe nice tits wanna fuck".

When men want to meet a woman, it must of necessity start somewhere, including with a hello, how are you?

In the world that I live in, it is not at all strange to offer greetings to a stranger. NOW, whether or not it is in the mind of the person addressing the stranger that they would like to begin a relationship, slowly, with the ultimate goal of dating is something that must be left to the desires of both parties.

But your massive, massive strawman that anything beyond an empty salutation is straying too far beyond the imaginary line you drew is silly.

It is ironic that you began your post with the statement "There is a continuum between "good morning" and "hey babe nice tits wanna fuck?". --the irony is that the remainder of your post seeks to obliterate the very gray area that you suggested exists.

Now, you basically ignored the thrust of my post and my scenario. Would you care to actually address it sans straw? Or should we just forget about it?

[Upton]

12. Lets be clear..are you suggesting 16% of men are rapists?

And just what is a "rape event"..? Does it encompass such things as this "visual rape" nonsense? If so, I not only don't accept the stat, but I believe it belittles and does a disservice to those women who are genuinely raped..as in forced to have sex against their will.

As for your other problems with threads here, I suggest you take it up with Warrren..

[Warren Stupidity]

14. No I said you could not sustain your assertion that 0.1% of men commit all the rapes.

Rape events are successful and unsuccessful rapes. If you want to challenge my numbers, fair enough, but first document your assertion that 99.9% of men have not attempted or committed rape. That assertion does not fit with a well documented 16% rape experience rate among women. It does not mean 16% of men are rapists. It means that an assertion that 0.1% of men are rapists is wildly problematic.

[4th law of robotics]

18. What percentage of men do *you* think are rapists?

And actual rape only, not elevator talkers or porn watchers.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. I have no idea. It is related to the rape experience level for women.

I did not make an assertion about the rapist frequency in the male population. The rules of polite discussion are that if one makes an assertion of fact, and that fact is challenged, the one who made the assertion of fact has to defend it, and having failed to defend it, it should then be concluded that the assertion was wrong.

[4th law of robotics]

24. Well logically it has to fall somewhere between 1 person and 51 million men (16%)

Which would you say the actual number is closer to? Just in your opinion. I won't hold you to it.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. My guess: 5-10%.

And it is a guess. There is really no good way to get at the real number.

[4th law of robotics]

31. You actually believe about 1 in 15 of the men you meet are rapists?

Wow.


And to be clear we're talking actual rape. You aren't trivializing it by including porn watchers and people who clumsily hit on women.

[Warren Stupidity]

36. 16% of women have a rape experience in their lives.

Somebody is doing the raping. We are not talking about watching porn or "clumsy hits", and I find your endless attempts to trivialize the issue disturbing to say the least.

I started out pointing out that the 99.9% number did not square with the fact based 16% number. You asked for a guess after I said that I had no idea what the actual frequency of rapists in the population is, other than it is related to the fact based 16% level of rape experiences. I guessed and you, true to form, mocked.

It is your turn to come up with some facts. You have clearly attempted to dismiss the 16% rape experience frequency, so back that up. You have dismissed again any correlation between rape frequency and rapist frequency - so back that up. 16% of women (and actually this thread contains documentation that puts the number up above 18%) have a rape experience. What is the frequency of rapists in the male population?

[4th law of robotics]

38. FULL STOP

You have clearly attempted to dismiss the 16% rape experience frequency, so back that up.

I have done no such thing.

This is a malicious lie and you should retract it.

At. No. Point. did I deny that roughly 1/6 women will be raped. At no point. Acknowledge this and retract your false claims.

[Warren Stupidity]

46. "And actual rape only, not elevator talkers or porn watchers."

for example.

Your attempts to trivialize and dismiss the data are all over these threads.

[4th law of robotics]

47. That had nothing to do with the 16% statistic

That had to do with your belief that 10% of men are rapists after claiming the elevator guy was basically a rapist/serial killer.

You are being deliberately dishonest.

Find a quote where I disputed the frequency of female rape or admit that you made that up.

[Mosby]

57. according to this study its about 4 percent

The really new information, however, is how those rapists and their offenses broke down: of the 120 rapists in the sample, 44 reported only one assault. The remaining 76 were repeat offenders. These 76 men, 63% of the rapists, committed 439 rapes or attempted rapes, an average of 5.8 each (median of 3, so there were some super-repeat offenders in this group). Just 4% of the men surveyed committed over 400 attempted or completed rapes.

The breakdown between the modus operandi of the rapists also tells us that a great deal of the rapes that happen are very different from what is recognized as “real” rape. Of all 120 admitted rapists, only about 30% reported using force or threats, while the remainder raped intoxicated victims. This proportion was roughly the same between the 44 rapists who reported one assault and the 76 who reported multiple assaults. (What the authors call “overt-force rapists” committed more sexual assaults, on average, than the “intoxication rapists” by about 6 to 3, but the parts of the sample are so small that this result did not reach statistical significance and could be sampling error rather than a real phenomenon. I’d really like an answer to that, though.)

Lisak & Miller also found that the repeat rapists in their survey were responsible for a broad array of violent acts, including intimate partner violence and child abuse. The surveys covered acts such as slapping or choking an intimate partner, physically or sexually abusing a child, and sexual assaults other than attempted or completed rapes. The 76 repeat rapists, just 4% of the sample, were responsible for 28% of the reported violence. The whole sample of almost 1900 men reported just under 4000 violent acts, but this 4% of recidivist rapists were responsible for over 1000 of those violent acts. The public policy implication is clear: rape is not an isolated problem, as the repeat rapists are not only committing a huge proportion of all rapes, but disproportionate share of the domestic violence as well. Society-wide, if these men were removed from the population, there would be a dramatic decrease in violence towards women and children.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/25/predator-theory/

[redqueen]

58. There are a couple of studies cited in that piece.

Thanks for posting it.

[Mosby]

64. Yes, and the take away

Is the fact that a very small group of males are responsible for committing an enormous amount of violent crime against women and children.

[redqueen]

72. Yep, a small number among those who aren't caught, & none of them consider what they did as rape. nt

[Upton]

59. So, in other words..most men aren't rapists.

Halleluiah! 4% is a far cry from the 16 or even 10% I've seen asserted here...and the high rate of sexual assaults against women is mostly do to repeat offenders. Thank you.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. So you agree that 0.1 % was total bullshit.

And now you are celebrating that only 1 in 25 men are rapists. Congratulations.

[Upton]

66. Thank you..

you must be disappointed your guess of 16 million men being rapists was off by literally millions. And your 1 in 25 figure is also ignoring the repeat offenders. Don't worry, there's always tomorrow.

Btw, I don't have a citation for my 99.9% figure...it was just my way of saying the vast majority of men AREN'T rapists..but you already knew that didn't you?

[Warren Stupidity]

61. I'm good with 4% too.

It is an appallingly large number. 1 in 25 men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. Since one in 18 men (5.5%) are CURRENTLY behind bars or being monitored,

it seems defensible that many (if not most) of them are being or have been punished.

[redqueen]

71. No, it doesn't.

Those 4% - 8% from the studies cited in the piece at Feministe were rapists who weren't caught. And both studies were likely skewed by underreporting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. Thanks for the clarification. That stands to reason.

Polling people in jail to determine the likelihood of a man being a rapist poses an unresolvable selection bias problem.

I doubt that adding a representative proportion of inmates would have materially skewed the result.

Lisak & Miller also found that the repeat rapists in their survey were responsible for a broad array of violent acts, including intimate partner violence and child abuse. The surveys covered acts such as slapping or choking an intimate partner, physically or sexually abusing a child, and sexual assaults other than attempted or completed rapes. The 76 repeat rapists, just 4% of the sample, were responsible for 28% of the reported violence. The whole sample of almost 1900 men reported just under 4000 violent acts, but this 4% of recidivist rapists were responsible for over 1000 of those violent acts. The public policy implication is clear: rape is not an isolated problem, as the repeat rapists are not only committing a huge proportion of all rapes, but disproportionate share of the domestic violence as well. Society-wide, if these men were removed from the population, there would be a dramatic decrease in violence towards women and children.

This is impossible to reconcile with the "rape culture" rhetoric. A diminishingly small proportion of men are responsible for most rapes, and they are also responsible for a huge proportion of other violence. If rape is a result of a cultural acceptance of it, one wouldn't expect 96% of men to be innocent.

It is also worth noting that "rapist" as used in the feministe article include those who said yes to;

(1) Have you ever been in a situation where you tried, but for various reasons did not succeed, in having sexual intercourse with an adult...

[MadrasT]

15. Does the CDC study work for you as a reputable source?

Defined as

Rape is defined as any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types, completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.

-Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.
-Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

According to that definition of rape, 18.3% women have been raped in their lifetimes (see page 18 of full report).

If one wants to argue that "attempted rape" shouldn't count, it breaks down as follows:

~ Completed forced penetration: 12.3% of all women
~ Attempted forced penetration: 5.2% of all women
~ Completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration: 8% of all women

Full study here: http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/index.html

[4th law of robotics]

20. I'm curious what those stats would be if they included statutory rape

It's not surprising that when you definition of rape revolves around penetration it will be skewed towards men.

I would consider a female teacher having sex with a 12 year old boy to be rape. By the definition the CDC uses it is not.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. you seem to be a bit desperate to disqualify the data. nt.

[4th law of robotics]

25. Pointing out flaws in the data collection

doesn't equate to desperate.

Do you agree with me that statutory rape is actual rape? Or do you consider it a lesser crime?

/and I never disagreed with the overall premise.

[Warren Stupidity]

27. read the study.

I'm not playing. You are attempting to trivialize the problem.

[4th law of robotics]

29. I actually linked to that same study yesterday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=2906

So yeah I've read through it.

What are you going on about?

You are attempting to trivialize the problem.

No. I'm not. Why is saying that men are also rape victims and that it is vastly under reported qualify as "trivializing" the rape of women when I said nothing about that?

I suppose they should just man up and not bother anyone with their problems, right?

[Warren DeMontague]

51. it IS A PROBLEM. and IT SHOULD BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

And it IS UNACCEPTABLE.

But part of the reason I shut that thread down, aside from the fact that it became real apparent the ground had been covered, was because there was no way to have any discussion about the ACTUAL ISSUE without it turning into "you're apologizing for rape!!!"

Which is also bullshit. It's a bullshit, disingenuous tactic, it's fucking character assassination, and frankly I'm fucking sick of seeing it.

The guy in the elevator, if he was a "potential rapist", was no more or less that after he opened his mouth and started a -by all accounts friendly- conversation asking the woman for coffee. She said no, and it was over.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. you tell me. I don't know. I objected to the assertion that 99.9% arent.

So come up with the data that accounts for a 16-18% rape experience for women and a 0.1% rapist experience for men. If you think 0.1% is too low (as I do) what is it then? I've gone way out on a limb and stated that my unsubstantiated guess is much closer to that 16-18% level than the 0.1% level.

[4th law of robotics]

39. Do you not understand math?

You make it sound like it's impossible for .1% of men to account for 100% of the rapes in this country.

Consider: you have a population of 1000 men and 1000 women.

1 guy rapes 160 women.

999 men rape no one.

That would give you a .1% incidence of males being rapists and a 16% incidence of female rape victims.

Do you really not understand this?

[MadrasT]

40. Perpetrator data

http://www.ncdsv.org/images/RapeFactSheet-UndetectedRapist.pdf

Currently, the best estimate of the incidence and prevalence of rape is provided by the
National Violence Against Women study, published in 2000 and sponsored by the
National Institute of Justice and the Centers for Disease Control.

Perpetrators: Numbers
Estimates of the percentage of men who acknowledge committing rape and attempted
rape have come from studies that ask questions about sexually violent behavior without
labeling such behavior as “rape” or “assault.” Below is a list of such studies and their
findings:

OFFENSE TYPE PERCENT REFERENCE
sexual assault & rape 12.0 Rapaport & Burkhart, 19845
rape, attempted rape, & sexual assault 9.2 Koss, Leonard, Beezley & Oros, 19856
rape 6.0 Mosher & Anderson, 19867
rape, attempted rape, & sexual assault 9.0 Koss, Gidycz, & Wisniewski, 19874
rape & sexual assault 9.9 Greendlinger & Byrne, 19878
Rape 6.1 Kosson, Kelly & White, 19979
rape, attempted rape, & sexual assault 14.9 Lisak & Roth, 198810
rape 10.0 Rubenzahl & Corcoran, 199811
rape & attempted rape 8.8 Ouimette & Riggs, 199812
rape & attempted rape 14.8 Merrill et al., 19983
rape 6.0 Collings, 199913
rape 4.8 Weiss & Zverina, 199914
rape 5.0 Spitzberg, 199915
rape & attempted rape 6.5 Lisak & Miller, (2002)16

[4th law of robotics]

41. I tried my best but couldn't find any of those articles

in full on the internet (for free. I'm not paying 30 bucks for one).

So unfortunately I can't look at the methodology they used. But given that most have some version of "coerce" in their title I'm guessing we aren't talking about the same thing.

I found this definition for sexual coercion: http://www.fit.edu/caps/documents/SexualCoercion_000.pdf

The act of using pressure ... to have sexual contact:
Pressure in this case can mean physical pressure, verbal pressure or emotional pressure. Physical pressure
can include hitting, kicking and slapping the victim; holding the victim down; continuing with the sexual behavior after the victim has been told to stop; and even continuing to kiss the victim as he/she tries to pull away. (seems reasonable) Verbal pressure includes behaviors like threatening to use physical force against the victim, yelling at the victim, name calling, tricking, lying, blackmailing and badgering the victim. (no problem so far) Emotional pressure is used much more frequently than physical and verbal pressure and is the most subtle of all the sexual coercion tactics. Using emotional pressure includes the perpetrator convincing the victim that he/she cares more for the victim than he/she actually does, threatening a break-up, wearing the victim down by using the same tactic over and over again, making the victim feel obligated to participate in sexual acts, guilting the victim participating, utilizing peer pressure and even the perpetrator using his/her position of authority over the victim.

What? Asking for sex more than once is rape. Saying not having sex is a deal breaker for your relationship is rape. Saying you love her when maybe you don't really then having sex is rape.

I'm surprised by those definitions they were only able to indict 14% of men.


Surely we can all agree that a guy saying he is no longer interested in dating a girl if she doesn't have sex with him is vastly different and in no way belongs in the same category as raping someone by force or by intoxicants.


Oh and here are some examples they use:

• “Everybody’s doing it.”
• “Sex is the way to prove your love for me.”
• “We’ve had sex before, so you can’t say no now.”
• Giving compliments that sound extreme or insincere.
• Put-downs or guilt trips
• Buying gifts or spending money to make you feel you “owe” sex.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. You've been presented with the data to back up my assertion that the number

is in fact related to the rape experience number. Now it is your turn to provide numbers that back whatever claim you are making (and I note that you have continued throughout this discussion to not pin yourself down to any number.) Put up or shut up. What's the number and where is your data?

[4th law of robotics]

49. The claims presented are based on what appears to be dubious data

hence the assumption that upwards of 14% of men are rapists cannot be substantiated.

I don't know the full number. But given that they had to use a definition of coercion that includes threatening to break up with a girl as rape I'm guessing that number is far higher than the real number.

Could you answer something honestly for me? Do you really feel that telling a woman you love her in order to get sex when you really don't is equivalent to rape? Do you think it is fair to include men who do this in with those who use force and ignore consent requirements? Or is this an intellectually dishonest act that artificially inflates the number of male rapists by including people who have no place being on those lists?

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. Arguing about statistics is a losing proposition.

If competing studies say that "Bad thing X" happens to;
a) 1% of people
b) 1.5% of people
c) 1.9% of people
d) 25% of people

Those invested in the magnitude of the problem naturally gravitate toward study D, and attempt to discredit the authors of studies A, B and C as deniers.

The authors of A, B and C don't like being called deniers, so they change the definitions they used for "bad thing X" in subsequent studies to prove their sensitivity. Thus "rape" becomes having sex with a partner who has been drinking or with whom you have threatened to break up.

The downside of this, of course is that when common things become redefined as rape, it becomes trivialized.

[4th law of robotics]

50. Which is exactly my problem with all this

if they just wanted to label it rape among themselves and leave it at that it wouldn't be a problem.

But by publishing these results and making national policies based on them they are trivializing the entire concept.

I guy will read this and say "hey, I bought a girl flowers and then got laid. I'm a rapist by their standards. Maybe rape isn't that bad of a thing since I'm a good guy and she didn't seem to mind"

It trivializes the entire crime.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. I'm having a problem with "1 guy rapes 160 women."

Yes it is possible. No it is not probable. But go ahead. Is that your claim? Are you sticking with a 0.1% rapist rate in the male population? You do understand that (and I haven't bothered to check your math) implies an average rape rate of 160 women per rapist.

Vacation in Egypt much?

[4th law of robotics]

48. No, that's not my argument at all

I'm just pointing out your notion that 16% of women being raped means something like 16% of men must be rapists is not mathematically sound.

That *could* be the case. However it is far from the only solution that can be arrived at. Mathematically.

[Warren Stupidity]

55. You've carefully avoided stating anything.

As I said, the only way it is 0.1% is, BY YOUR MATH, if the average rapes per rapist is 160.

[4th law of robotics]

69. You may come to find

that when I don't know an answer I generally won't make a declarative statement as to what it may be (you may want to think about that).

I don't know how many men are rapists. The 14% stat some of those studies seems to high and based on what I can find of their methodology it seems it was artificially inflated (saying I love you to get sex counts as coercive rape if you didn't really mean it).

And I took issue with your inability to get the math behind how it could be a very small number of men doing it.

Got it now?

[Major Nikon]

54. It wasn't hyperbole

Hyperbole is intentional exaggeration. This was no exaggeration, but rather an attempt to redefine rape in terms that are quite different than most people would. This also isn't that far removed from how other feminists have defined rape as pretty much the whole of male/female heterosexual sex. So according to them all men aren't rapists, just the vast majority of them. Doesn't sound like something that's based on a world most would call reality.

Rape isn't a problem with "male behavior" any more than shoplifting is a problem with 'female behavior'. It's a problem with people who choose to live outside the boundaries of what is considered decent and legal behavior. And yes, something should be done about it just like something should be done about all violent anti-social behavior. Attempting to redefine rape in terms that have no basis in reason, logic, common sense, and even reality is counterproductive to that goal.

[4th law of robotics]

13. It's remarkable really

the kind of people who should be least interested in making the term "rape" meaningless should be these women.

I could see actual rapists wanting the term watered down to mean "any interaction between a man and a woman". But for someone who claims to care about women's rights to actively work to make the term meaningless is baffling.

When they declared that even consensual sex is rape under the patriarchy (which is everywhere and always, so all sex is rape) that pretty much convinced me they should be ignored.

[RevStPatrick]

4. Here's how I had it explained to me once...

And I tend to think there's quite a bit of truth in this:

Every man on the face of the earth is attracted to 17 year old girls. It's our biology. We're built that way. Any man who tells you he isn't attracted to 17 year old girls is either lying or gay, in which case he is attracted to 17 year old boys.

You can adjust that number up or down a little bit to account for taste. The trick is that we are now "civilized" and you can't just go around screwing 17 year old girls like back in the caveman days. That's part of the price we pay for the benefits of "civilization."

[4th law of robotics]

9. Yes there are

read some of the anti-porn screeds by radfems and it becomes pretty clear that they don't think too highly of the opposite sex.

They come to this conclusion by talking to each other of course rather than actually interacting with men.

Some seem to earnestly believe watching porn or being aroused by a woman in some way is rape. And of course there are those who argue that any intercourse is rape. So yeah, pretty much they consider all men rapists.

/they will even manage to work gay men in to the mix. I'm not sure how that works but I never can follow their logic.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. There were the famous flaps on some College Campuses in the late 80s, early 90s

where posters with names or pictures of random male students would be put up along with statements like "WARNING: POTENTIAL RAPIST"

A pretty fucked up thing to do, I think.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-05-08/news/1993128032_1_potential-rapists-campus-feminist-art

About 10 of them plastered the campus with fliers last week listing the names of virtually every male student under the heading, "NOTICE: THESE MEN ARE POTENTIAL RAPISTS."

Their decision to walk the murky line between libel and free speech sent the campus into an uproar. Yesterday, reporters, photographers and TV crews flocked to the sprawling campus in search of outraged students on both sides of the issue.

I don't think that consciousness-raising tactic got the results they wanted, though, so I'm not sure if anyone still does it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

60. Ah, the weird old days

"A lot of people are very upset by it, but I think if a man was secure he wasn't a rapist, he wouldn't be threatened by this list," Ms. Lane said.

I've heard that before, in defense of things like the Patriot Act.

[4th law of robotics]

68. After the Duke case

they should have posted pictures of every woman on campus with the caption: this woman will potentially lie about being raped to punish you.


No wait. That would be horrible. Those women haven't done anything wrong. Condemning an entire gender for the actions of individuals is completely wrong and accusing someone of a horrible crime based on no evidence is libelous.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Yeah, those sorts of tactics are beyond the pale.

Not cool. Pretty vile.