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ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)What's the deal with the sudden push to tie atheists to sexism, misogyny and rape? Doubling down on the accusation of the ties between the religious right and radfems?
Seriously, I feel like Hooper in "Jaws" when he sees the barrels bobbing frantically and just sighs in desperation...."Now what?"
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)He just doesn't get that it is not ok to try to pick up every woman anywhere whenever you feel like it. Here is a clue: get an introduction first. Have something in common besides 'public space'.
Woman go out in public, and if they are at all attractive, and even if they aren't, they are continually bombarded by helpful suggestions from horny men. Every man they meet has to be put through the rapist/ax-murderer calculus. Friends have to be advised regarding initial encounters, lest they disappear without a trace. Rape, of all sorts, is vastly under-reported and commonplace.
We should stop doing that to women. It is obnoxious.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)in a conversation about hitting on some girl (clumsily apparently) in an elevator.
That's a big part of the problem. Hitting on women is immediately equated to rape by some people.
Do you really want to live in a society where hitting on a woman casually is discussed in the same breath as murder and rape?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)What is a big part of the problem is that you apparently have no clue that this behavior, "hitting on women" is how many rapes start. "Hitting on women". Even the phrase itself connotes violence. It is not the equivalent of rape, it is frequently how stranger rape starts.
Why on earth do you think it is ok to invade a stranger's space in order to attempt to have sex with them? All your other women friends won't?
I'll try the clue stick one more time and then give up.
How to meet women:
1. get an introduction from a friend first.
2. See (1).
The world would be a better place. Yes I'd be much happier in a world where women didn't feel so constantly threatened.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)If you assume everyone who says hello to you is going to rape you though life is going to be tough.
Why on earth do you think it is ok to invade a stranger's space in order to attempt to have sex with them? All your other women friends won't?
He. Asked. Her. A. Question.
You don't have a right to only be talked to you by people you like. From time to time in public places someone may speak to you that you would prefer did not.
How to meet women:
1. get an introduction from a friend first.
2. See (1).
My (later wife) asked me out on our first date. I didn't know her. She wasn't introduced to me by a friend. I guess we've been raping each other all these years. I don't know how to break the news to her.
Perhaps it would be easier if they never spoke at all and the paring was arranged by their parents. That way no one gets hit on accidentally.
The world would be a better place. Yes I'd be much happier in a world where women didn't feel so constantly threatened.
Some people live in constant terror. If it wasn't this it would be something else.
Most of us realize that life has risks but it's not nearly as bad as the hype.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"invade a stranger's space in order to attempt to have sex with them" is what happens every weekend, at a million bars all over this planet.
And, also, "Can I buy you a drink" or "Would you like to have coffee with me" is hardly storming the beaches at Normandy.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)First of all, there are places where it is entirely appropriate to proposition women, for example a singles bar where men and women go to cruise each other and this behavior is appropriate. That is not what this was about. It was about propositioning complete strangers in public spaces, specifically an elevator at 4am. But I'll go right out on a limb and say we should stop doing this anywhere it is not clearly the expected mode of introduction. Is that really too much to ask? If you don't understand why we should stop,perhaps reading what women have to say about their experiences of our behavior would be a good starting point. I am not a woman so I can only repeat what I have learned from women who have written and spoken about the way men treat women in public spaces. Read the entire discussion around the incident your OP is about. If you still don't understand why we should stop behaving like jerks, then I think perhaps you are not really being honest about it.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)However, I think it's disingenuous to expect that sort of thing to go away, and I think it is a bit silly overreact to it. He asked her to his room for coffee. She said no. She felt uncomfortable. He perhaps could have done a better job of picking a spot to ask, but, by all accounts, he wasn't physically menacing, he asked, she said no, end of story.
I feel uncomfortable when homeless people ask me for money and I'm broke, sometimes. Sometimes human interaction is tricky, or uncomfortable-making.
I do not agree that asking a woman "would you like to have coffee with me" makes a guy a "jerk". He asked, she said no. Why is he a jerk? If he hadn't gracefully accepted the rejection, that would be a jerky move.
Let me add this; I'm not claiming to be the best looking guy alive but in my life I have certainly had my share of women- strangers- chat me up, flirt, proposition me, etc. (Hell, once I was at a show and a beautiful woman came up and basically groped me, before walking away. Now THAT was an invasion of personal space! ...I suspect she was on some sort of substance.) This is what people do. It's how they interact. It happens. Saying "I would like to go out with you" is not being a jerk, as long as you're cool with the fact that the person very well may say "no".
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)when they go out in to public.
Can you imagine; an adult male politely expressing his interest in having sex with another adult and, when he was shot down, quietly dropping it and going back to his room. IN PUBLIC! Stephen King couldn't dream up a more macabre tale of woe and agony.
/you do realize plenty of people meet in public places other than bars on single's nights or after being introduced by a mutual friend.
//I'm guessing if it had been a rich handsome celebrity who said the exact same thing in exactly the same way her story would have been told a bit differently . . .
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I did, back in the day. And no, I wasn't obnoxious about it. Sometimes got no, sometimes got yes.
I think the 'rapist/axe murderer calculus' is part of the problem, here. I mean, assuming that some guy in an elevator is a homicidal potential-if-not-probable violent criminal because he says something menacing like "do you want to have coffee with me"..
Look, I understand that some- many- women have generalized fears around men. And I understand why. (Maybe the elevator wasn't the best place to ask her out, although, again, it takes guts to ask out a stranger. And a lot of relationships- good ones, even- start that way.)
If, say, I find myself walking at night on a deserted city street near a woman, I adjust my body language and where I am, etc. to make it clear I'm not following her or some kind of threat. I'm not an asshole (despite my reputation). But I DO think there has been a tendency to go way overboard on this "ALL male sexual energy, interest, etc is inherently suspect and/or 'problematic'" notion.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)It makes a lot of women really uncomfortable about male strangers in public spaces. How about we figure that out and make the world a better place?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)gotten some pretty clear signals in the first place. Not just a nervous smile, I mean an actual conversation beforehand with a clear indication that there was chemistry and mutual interest.
And, believe it or not, I'm a fairly good read of people. So I don't think I would have been in this situation, ever.
That said, maybe the guy is a putz. Has bad person skills. Not real tuned in to body language. So, he asked her, and she said no. He put himself out there, and by all accounts when rejected he was fine with it, it was over.
So what does he get? He's eviscerated in public as being an example of the spooky male almost-rapist who sexualizes women and is constantly oppressionating with his bad space penis-power.
And from where I sit, he did nothing to deserve it. Maybe made a clumsy attempt to connect with someone he was attracted to, and got rejected.
So "Skepchick's" reaction, rather than saying "better luck next time", is to publicly burn him at the stake, and make a federal case out of it.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)A man shouldn't talk to a woman unless they've been properly introduced? Sorry, just sounds like something sexually uptight people would have thought was a good idea 100 years ago.
I don't believe that all women live with the irrational fear of being raped every time they meet a strange man. Certainly some do, and some may have a very good reason for being that way based on their experiences, but I don't buy that all women or even anywhere close to most women feel this way.
As far as this particular situation goes, there's not nearly enough information to draw any sort of judgement one way or another. It's possible the guy was under the effects of drugs or alcohol and/or was just being creepy. It's also possible he picked up some sort of vibe from eye contact or whatever and decided to test the waters. A big part of communication in person is non-verbal. If you're saying his actions were inherently wrong regardless of how it played out, that's where I'm going to have to disagree.
redqueen
(115,164 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)She makes good points on this as well.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)"Jeez, what meathead. Skepchick, that is. Look, I'm 6"2, I'm lean and I'm strong. If I'm in an elevator with a woman asking her out, I'm not trying to rape her. If I wanted to rape her, I would. Like the average woman can put up any kind of resitance to a man who wants to rape her."
"If I wanted to rape her I would." But she should just 'know' that I'm not going to, because....
because... because... well because this stranger didn't happen to be a rapist. What. The. Fuck. Ever.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)But that's not what happened in the elevator.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)that was what I meant by the rapist/ax-murderer calculus. Do you really not understand that this is what is going on in many women's heads with each 'stranger man' unsolicited encounter?
It doesn't mean all men are rapists or all attempts to pick up women are inappropriate (but outside of for example a singles bar most really are) or that all women feel this way. But many do. So what the fuck, why don't we just stop? Is it really such a burden to restrict horndog activity to women you have been introduced to? Really?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)He asked her to his room for coffee. She said no. Encounter over. The fact is, if she thought he was menacing, he was just as menacing before he opened his mouth.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)"I'm not going to rape you because if I wanted to I would have already . . . so wanna come back to my place?"
That would have warranted this kind of outrage.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Which, by the same logic that tells us that Robert Jensen's y chromosome confers super-special extra legitimacy to his anti-porn arguments, means that she must have extra cred on this issue.
Right?
redqueen
(115,164 posts)you think you're making.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)See, he's a man, and he's against porn. Which he thinks is bad, and he has all sorts of scientific-sounding data to back up his conclusion and please don't pay any attention to the name Judith Reisman if you happen see it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2278376&mesg_id=2294906
Oh, and did we mention that he's a man?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2278376&mesg_id=2288931
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I never got an answer to this question, either.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2278376&mesg_id=2291087
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)who certainly had NO idea of the shit-storm he was going to provoke when he pointed out, quite rightly, that, in the grand scheme of things, "Someone asked me out who I wasn't interested in!!!! 
" is a classic example of a First World so-called "Problem".
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)wave of the 60's and 70's and unless he was in a fucking bubble somewhere, pun intended, knows exactly what the issues are. He knows and doesn't give a shit. Like that asshole Harris, Dawkins also isn't perfect. Fortunately I don't require perfection in either of these men, as they are people who have some interesting things to say along with their assholery.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Like I said, "assholery" or not, he did a good job of pointing out that "Help! Someone I wasn't interested in thought I was attractive, and asked me for a date!" is a perfect example of a so-called 1st World "problem".
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)1) be handsome.
2) be attractive.
3) don't be unattractive.
If you just follow these three simple rules you won't be labeled a creepy pseudo-rapist for talking to women in public.
/borrowed from SNL.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)it is not the equivalent to "talking to women in public". Talk to women all you like, exactly like you would any other stranger. Although I have been repeatedly told that even innocuous encounters creep many women out, that they are tinged with the (yes I am going to say it again) rapist/ax-murder calculus that many women run every time they encounter a strange man as a defense mechanism. Hitting on women is the subset of talking to women that is explicitly sexual in nature.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Again we keep coming back to arranged marriages. Just have your parents set the whole thing up. That way there is no awkward conversations (in public!) that might possibly not go well and make one party feel bad.
What this guy did was totally within the normal limits of human interactions. That the woman felt creeped out and assumed he would rape her was on her, not him.
Hypothetically if she was raped by a guy with a mustache and now is frightened by any man with a mustache is it the guy's fault for having upper lip hair? Did he do something wrong in that scenario?
She has hangups with talking to men in public (apparently they're all rapists). That's not his fault.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)is constantly under threat from spooky male sexuality" meme.
No, they're not going to go out of their way to get into an actually dangerous situation. But a man asking a woman out, even in an elevator, doesn't rise to that level AFAIAC.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)It is an intellectually dishonest attempt to save face by diverting - it is Dawkins doing a thread hijack rather than admitting perhaps he was wrong.
Behind the Aegis
(54,852 posts)Thank G-d I am gay!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)that would be VERY different.
If he had followed her back to her car, that would be VERY different.
If he had done anything past simply asking her to have coffee with him, her saying no, and them going their separate ways...
It would be VERY different.
(So, let's not play that cutesy game where we try to make stuff about things that they aren't about, shall we? Just this once? Hmmmm?)
He asked. She said no. That could have been the end of it, except she proceeded to have an internet fit about it.
Behind the Aegis
(54,852 posts)You have the original story, then it turns into something else all together. There have been threads I have seen in the past that didn't even remotely resemble the original situation by the time the thread had flamed out. People add their own bias, prejudices, bigotries, etc. to the story, accept them as "fact", rather than speculation, and we're off to the races. It can be very distracting. Threads become nothing but pages of straw.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Last weekend, I had an experience that reminded me to think about the struggles of women.
After leaving a dinner meeting, I walked to a bank of elevators that led to the parking structure
where my car was parked. When the elevator doors opened, I was greeted by a woman who
was headed to the same parking garage. Given the situation—it was late at night with no one
around—I told her, “I’ll take the next one.”
I’m not a saint. I still have so much to learn. But at that moment, I, as a man, made the conscious decision to calculate how riding elevator late at night with a strange man would make this woman feel. And by putting myself in her shoes (as much as I could), I adjusted my behavior accordingly.
This woman knew nothing about my intentions and nothing about me. Did I want her to spend
the next thirty seconds wondering what was going to happen to her at 11pm at night? Nope. I
wonder if she would have asked me to take the next elevator. I know she has probably been
conditioned to think, like so many women, that asking a man to take the next elevator would be
rude and presumptuous.
That night, I did what most women do for men on an everyday basis: I considered her
needs. I thought about how the situation would make her feel—not because I wanted to avoid a
reaction, but because I wanted to support her. It’s just not something men do as easily for
women.
Hopefully, my decision was a respite for her.
But I know it was a brief one.
http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/08/30/men-will-never-truly-understand-a-day-in-the-life-of-women-but-shouldn%E2%80%99t-we-try/
__________________________________________
ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs. (Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot.) Do not get on an elevator if there is a weirdo already on there. (Of course bad men don't always look bad.) Do not stand back in the corners of the elevator. Be near the front, by the doors, ready to get off or on. If you get on the elevator on the 25th floor, and the Boogie Man gets on the 22nd, get off when he gets on. Don't ride the elevator with him if you are not comfortable.
http://www.thenonprofits.com/safety.htm
_________________________________
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/05/women-in-elevators-a-man-to-ma/
“Do people get it?” she asked me, kinda freaked out (as noted).
“Get what?” I was distracted and unclear on the point she was making.
“Do people get what it is like for a woman to have a man join her on an elevator in the middle of the night? Do they understand that this is ALWAYS something that raises one’s stress level, even if just a little?”
“Sometimes more, sometimes less, it depends on your state of mind, the time of day, all sorts of other factors, but if I’m in a hotel somewhere in the middle of the night and some guy I don’t know gets on the elevator, my stress level goes up and stays there until one of us gets off. If he says something to me other than ‘nice weather we’re having’ I get much more stressed. That’s true to some degree for all women.”
Here’s the thing. A woman normally possesses a certain sense of caution related specifically to things that mainly happen to women, which does cause stress. A man should respect that and act accordingly, by doing certain things and not doing certain things. Every single person I’ve spoken to about Rebeccapocalypse has had a view of this roughly in the same range: Rebecca displayed normative behavior in being put off by Elevator Guy and it was up to her to decide to speak about it, and generally a good thing to do so. People do disagree on the modus operendus of speaking out, but not dramatically. Everyone understands that a woman should have a certain sense of caution … as should a man but in different ways, for different things, to different degrees … and that a man should respect this and act accordingly. By doing certain things and not doing certain things.
But then there are these people, mostly guys, and also Richard Dawkins, shockingly, who don’t get it at all. I’m thinking that the fame factor has caused Dawkins to live a life in which certain conversations have been avoided, and he is just socially retarded because of this, though in most ways he is a fine example of an English Gentleman. Or maybe being socially retarded and being an English Gentleman are the same thing in certain areas. Oh, right, this might apply to privilege, might-en it? And privilege might be what makes men tend to be stupid about certain things. Get out of my way, Bitch, I’m walking down the street and I don’t care that trammeling past you is going to freak you out. Your problem. What are you doing out in the middle of the night by yourself anyway? Oh, if I was asked over for coffee at 4AM in the morning in Ireland on an elevators, I’d see it as a complement! Yes, yes, I suspect Richard Dawkins has been asked over for coffee and servicing at the wee hours of the morning many times, because he’s a star and that is what happens. So from his point of view, I suppose he was giving Rebecca the highest complement when he figured that she had no brief: “Rebecca, you are one of us stars! You have a groupie! Good show, Old Girl!
_________________________
So, here's your plan for the next time you take the elevator:
Know where you’re going and double-check with the directory if you haven’t been there before.
Stand a bit back from the doors while you are waiting. This allows you to keep an eye on whoever else wants to use the elevator.
If you get the slightest "ick" feeling from anyone that might be riding up with you, stay out of that car. Fake a phone call or “forget” something you needed to do somewhere else if it makes you feel more comfortable. Take the next elevator up or down.
Stand by the control panel in the elevator. Get off at a floor that is not your destination if you are not comfortable. Take the next elevator up or down.
http://www.defythebadguy.com/elevator-safety
____________________________________________
Always take the elevator instead of the stairs.
Do not get on an elevator if there is only one man in it (of course, not all men are bad, but don't take chances. Wait for the next elevator.)
Do not stand back in the corners of the elevator, be near the front, by the doors, ready to get off or on.
If you get on the elevator on the 25th floor, and someone you feel uneasy about gets on at the 22nd, get off when they get on.
http://www.haltabuse.org/resources/offline.shtml
_______________________________________
you are right warren, it is just so beyond the pale for any man to understand how or why a woman may be uncomfortable with a man in an elevator. it is not like there has not been enough situations to warn us this may be an issue in our life. not your life, granted. god forbid that you actually have to consider what a woman may feel. being in an elevator in the early mornings, with little to protect us should not leave a woman uncomfortable. because you tell us so. forget reality, but warren doesnt see it as an issue. and after all, you have had to experience your own uncomfortable with hungry people when you do not have money to give them.
i guess you do not think it is necessary to even "try" to understand what a woman may feel, when possible violence equates to you not having money to give to someone hungry.
we have been taught all our lives that an elevator, especially late at night, can be a dangerous place for us. so do your dismissive shrug and jokes and have a good time, and if this ever happens where you are in a postition to make a woman feel safe, or uncomfortable, you will at least have been informed.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Here is a "scenario" for you to consider.
A man gets in an elevator. Inside is an attractive woman. She is standing near the buttons. She is attractive and knows it. She also knows that men think she is attractive.
The man goes to the rear of the elevator and turns to face the doors as all people do. He is now behind her. There is tension. She feels his eyes on her back or imagines she does. Her shoulders tense.
He is attracted to her but aware of the unease in her body language. The silence continues and onlys erves to increase the tension. He knows she is feeling uncomfortable and he, in turn, feels uncomfortable to be thought of as a "potential rapist".
"Do I not say anything? Isn't it creepy to be so silent? Maybe I should break the ice?"
He tries it. "Hey, it sure is hot out there?" he says. "Haven't I seen you around before?"
He made the remarks, he thinks, to both break the tension and to show that he works here and is not some random stranger.
------------------------------------------
What do you think of this interaction? Did he do the right thing? The wrong thing?
Was he aware of her feelings? Was she aware of his?
I think many people could interpret this in different ways.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)What I did say was, if she was going to be uncomfortable anyway, why would him asking her if she wanted to get a cup of coffee make it MORE uncomfortable, and why should we pillory him for it?
It sounds like his real offense was being a man in an elevator, period. Anything above and beyond that, well, she apparently had every reason to be uncomfortable no matter what.
Would it have been better for him to lurk silently in the corner? He struck up a -by all accounts, friendly- conversation with her. He made an overture, she turned him down, and that was (and should have been) the end of it.
I do understand. I think it probably wasn't a good place for him to try to ask her for coffee. He sounds like a fairly socially inept putz. As I said elsewhere, when I am in public, or, say, in a situation where a woman might feel vulnerable in that fashion, I go out of my way to make that person feel as secure as I can.
So let's be clear: When you come in here and address me directly, it's not about me "not trying to understand", it's about me not toeing your ideological line on this, sort of like how I don't toe your ideological line on how pictures of naked people fucking are supposed to be the greatest instrument of oppression and societal harm since slavery. Let's not kid ourselves.
And let me get this straight; if I don't take this AS SERIOUSLY as you demand I take it, I'm somehow being hurtful? But it's okay for the HoF group to high five and cheer and gush ecstatic about the "brilliance" of Valerie Solanis fantasizing about killing billions of men?
How the fuck does that work?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)A couple things are worth noting, is that the ONLY reason it came up on DU again was due to a particularly noxious, to my mind, out of the blue instance of anti-Atheist slamming, one perpetuating an old saw about Atheists being inherently less moral, implying specifically that Atheist men (hence, the men's group) are somehow less contained in our evil male-y-male ways than our religiously believing brethren.
So, that's that.
I think it's important to reiterate that Ms. Watson was certainly entitled to her opinion of the incident, and as men it does behoove us to do whatever we can to make everyone around us feel as safe and comfortable as possible; that's just basic human decency. I do NOT believe that asking a woman (or a man) out for coffee, in and of itself, constitutes some sort of giant breach of personal boundaries. But yeah, it's a good idea to try to be subtle and considerate and above all perceptive to the signals that, say, someone you may feel an interest in, may be sending out. In such a situation, you want the interest to be mutual, duh.
Obviously this guy didn't do a good job of that, at least judging by the external reports.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)http://100gf.wordpress.com/2011/07/10/richard-dawkins-rebecca-watson-and-a-fuss-about-an-elevator/
What most Atheists and Skeptics "learned" from the incident, sadly, was that they had better keep their mouths shut, or nod solemnly and YD to ANYTHING remotely resembling this kind of "complaint", (and for FUCK'S SAKE, MAN, don't call it "overblown"
) lest every single discussion about secularism, or Atheism, or any of the like get repeatedly and permanently derailed by The "Perpetually Persecuted by The Patriarchal Porn Penis" Patrol.