Men's Group
Related: About this forumWhy Gail Dines Is About As Leftist As The Tea Party
http://www.redgarterclub.com/AJK-Multisite/blog/2011/02/23/why-gail-dines-is-about-as-leftist-as-the-tea-party-and-as-marxist-as-rush-limbaugh/ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....and those of others are not really interested in the Democratic political party or the struggle of progressives versus the right as they are the patriarchy myth.
Discuss.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Others are carrying water for the religious right and stealth fundamentalists.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)on the political spectrum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum
Just like porn-banners on here are solidly in the authoritarian left.
Right/left is less important to certain people than authoritarian/libertarian.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Should We Worry Whether Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality?
By Sonali Kolhatkar, Uprising Radio
Posted on September 11, 2010, Printed on September 11, 2010
http://www.alternet.org/story/148142/
<...>
Sonali Kolhatkar: I have to say it was very difficult to read your book, and I had to skip parts where you describe mainstream pornography. This is not your fathers Playboy or Penthouse magazines and videos. What were seeing in porn today, and mainstream porn, is completely bizarre. I mean, how do you handle it in your research?
Gail Dines: Well, whats interesting is that I, like the viewers, get desensitized over time. I mean, obviously I couldnt have the visceral reaction I had in the beginning to it. But I put those descriptions in because often people say to me, you know, why are you getting so upset by images of naked women? And what I want people to understand is that pornography now looks nothing like it did 10, 15 years ago that it is now brutal and cruel and is absolutely based on the degradation of women. So this is why I walk people through the porn industry. Also, often anti-porn feminists are accused of picking the worst of the pornography. What I wanted to do was go into the mainstream pornography that the average 11-year-old would get once he put porn into Google.
<...>
SK: Because of the Internet.
GD: Absolutely. The Internet changed the industry. It made it accessible, and it made it affordable. So remember, when the average age of first viewing pornography is 11, when the 11-year-old boy puts porn into Google, hes not looking at your fathers Playboy, hes looking at a world of cruelty, and a world of brutality. So what I ask in the book is, What are the long-term effects of bringing up boys on violent images when you think about pornography as being the main form of sex education in our society?
<...>
Even the industry said that many women have a hard time being in the industry for more than three months. Why? Because of the brutalization of the body.
SK: Three months?
GD: Thats what the article says in Adult Video News. Also, Ive interviewed somebody who worked with AIM, the health care organization that takes care of the health of porn performers, and he was telling me just what happens to the bodies of these women...
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 2, 2012, 03:15 PM - Edit history (1)
Objective fact, I'd have a fuckload of walnuts.
Two, i guess she didn't get the memo from the DEA that the "oh noooez, you dont understand, its way worse now than it was when you did it growing up!!" bullshit didn't work with pot, and its certainly not going to work with pictures of consenting adults fucking; which, contrary to the breathless hyperbole of folks like Dines, is what "most porn" actually consists of, now as well as in the past.
Three, no, porn is not "markedly different" than it was 15 years ago, other than the fact that you can now get it on blu-ray or over the internet as opposed to on VHS at a video store.
Which brings me to Four, namely, the same clucking moralists and puritanical would-be censors were trying to ban porn 15 years ago, too. When, as they claim now, it "wasnt bad". Why? Because to the Gail Dines, Judith Reismans and Rick Santorums of the world, it is ALWAYS bad because it's ALWAYS SEX, and SEX IS BAD.
Ask Dines what sort of graphic depiction of a sex act she wouldnt have a problem with... She will hem and haw and equivocate,but the real answer is, there isnt one. Its not about the sorts of porn or the messages in the porn or the content of the porn, its about the fact that its porn.
Period. She should stop the disingenous games and just admit it. Her pals in the religious right know what she's really about, shame she can still (for now) sucker someone at a place like alternet into giving her airtime.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Or simply refer to stuff that isnt actually there.
Here is one response fom AVN to Dines. I would be greatly interested to see the ACTUAL "AVN Article" she repeatedlyreferences, but i will not hold my breath.
http://business.avn.com/articles/legal/Analysis-Deconstructing-Dines-404545.html
Also, since you have referenced her, are you aware that Gail Dines was recently a main featured speaker at an event that was barred from another venue in London for bigotry, and that unapologetically reaffirmed that same bigotry before proceeding to feature Dines along with Shiela "every time a woman orgasms with a man she is eroticizing her own oppression" Jeffreys?
What is your opinion on that?
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)There are probably other ways to locate the article, but the subject is a tangent I am not interested in pursuing. The article exists or doesn't. It is online, was scrubbed or is from a print AVN publication. Anyone interested should probably contact Professor Dines directly. If she appeared on a stage with an anti-transgender bigot (as described upthread), it may for purposes of DEBATE. Link below first hit from google search: gail dines transgender.
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:42:57 -0400
From: Gail Dines <gdines AT WHEELOCK.EDU>
Subject: Documentary on Transgender Issues
I am teaching a section on Transgender politics and I am looking for a good
documentary. Suggestions most welcome.
Thanks,
Gail Dines
Gail Dines
Professor of Sociology and Women's Studies
Chair of American Studies
Wheelock College
35 Pilgrim Road
Boston, MA 02215
gdines AT wheelock.edu
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)The article "may exist or may not"? Okay, so maybe shes full of shit, maybe shes not? Funny, that SHE couldn't be bothered to provide the source quotes or material, despite repeatedly paraphrasing it.
Yet you're clearly going to try to continue to hold her up as a reputable source... Why?
Here are some FACTS: the radfem 2012 conference was kicked out of Conway hall for its bigoted stance against transpeople, a stance about which the venue management had this to say:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1139&pid=6468
This was all very well documented in the media and progressive blogosphere, as well as LOUDLY complained about by the event organizers themselves, in the process of defending their bigoted stance and weaving elaborate conspiracy theories (again) about men getting sex change operations for the sole purpose of "invading womynspace".
There is NO WAY Gail Dines could have had anything to do with this event and not been aware of the bigotry and discrimination. Yet, she spoke anyway.
"for the purposes of debate"? Hah. It was for the purposes of promulgating her falsehood-laden gibberish about porn, of course.
http://radicalhub.com/2012/07/22/london-radical-feminist-conference-july-2012/
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Sections 62 through 67 of the 2008 Criminal Justice Act (UK) makes it a punishable offense, for which one may receive three years in prison, to possess pornography that meets the outlined definition of extreme. Legally, pornography is regard as extreme if any action depicted therein (can) threaten a persons life, results, or is likely to result, in serious injury to..."
It turns out however that as many as 9.5 million UK residents could be guilty of violating this law, or so claims Backlash (the chief opponent of this law)... But in the age of the internet, there exists an ample online supply of such material courtesy of Brazil, Japan, the United States, and a great multitude of European nations...
...Using interviews with hundreds of college-age students, Pornland takes a close look at what it means for young women and men to grow up in such a culture and how it shapes their identities, sexualities, and ideas about intimacy, relationships, and connection.
The way I address this in the book is to ask the reader what would happen if this book were a critique of McDonald's for its exploitive labor practices, its destruction of the environment, and its impact on our diet and health. Would I be accused of being anti-eating or anti-food? I suspect that most readers would understand that the critique was focused on the large-scale impact of the fast-food industry and not the human need, experience, and joy of eating. So I say in the preface that this book should be read as a critique of the industrialization and commodification of sex by corporate predators, and not as an attack on sex itself.
It is this industrial setting that often gets ignored in the heated debates over porn..."
Google: forbes extreme porn revenues
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=forbes+extreme+porn+revenues&oq=forbes+extreme+porn+revenues&gs_l=hp.3...3187.9345.1.9608.14.14.0.0.0.0.661.1901.3-1j2j1.4.0...0.0...1c.GXg61VJqFT4&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=cead04954accb9ad&biw=1725&bih=850
Don't like Dines? Forget Dines then. Read FORBES http://www.forbes.com/sites/susannahbreslin/2012/07/30/the-porn-convention/3/ and see derek miller 5 days ago (comments, p3) ignoring the 2nd paragraph for a remarkably Dines-like opinion. Breslin states, "This is very dramatic, but not entirely true." Time will tell.
Or see more of Breslin's own writing where she takes on libertarian defenders like Glenn Greenwald.
7/21/2011
Adult director Max Hardcore released from prison
...In response, I wrote a post about the very hardcore realities of a Hardcore movie. (Warning: This post contains graphic language.)
Breslin presents objective observations. This corroborates Dines minus any spin.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Dines endorsed a conference that was roundly criticized for bigotry against transpeople. That is the point your are studiously avoiding.
If Dines isnt anti-sex, why is she appearing at a conference held by people who make being "PIV Critical" a core part of their agenda?
Why was she headlining the thing with Shiela "every time a woman orgasms with a man, she is eroticising her own oppression" Jeffreys?
I will warn you that tired tactics of derailment others may feel an entitlement mentality to engage in elsehere on this site, will not work here. If you want a place where you can just continually cut and paste anti-porn arguments instead of actually addressing the points raised, this is not the group for you. Try going into HoF and just continually cutting and pasting opinion pieces from Larry Flynt or Susie Bright- they wont stand for it, over there, will they?
Likewise, over here, we arent going to play the game where fusillades of links, excerpts, and propaganda sub for actually staying on topic and engaging in logical, linear discussion. All you've done here is dug up someone you think sounds like Dines. While ignoring Dines's bigotry and the well documented position that her "facts" are full of shit. (not to mention the folks shes palled up with, from the anti trans bigots to the religious right)
Somone is against porn? Great. For every one of those, there re 10 who believe in free speech and the right of consenting adults to watch other consenting adults fuck. We can play that game all day, but THAT IS NOT THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD.
So please, address the previous point.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Don't like Dines' editorializing? Fine, read Breslin (Forbes; previously reversecowgirlblogspot) who documents the emergence and abuses of extreme porn as a former industry insider, essentially functioning as a whistleblower (see WayBackMachine 2005 2006).
Your points about Dines? Irrelevant, the argument she makes stands WITHOUT HER.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)for all of these 'anti-porn' arguments.
I've said before, I'll say again, I think the answer to bad art is good art, not censorship.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Apologies. Although I doubt it, you might be right about Dines. I don't know and don't have the time or inclination to investigate. It appeared to me that you were attempting to discredit Dines' work by discrediting Dines. You're wrong on that one.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)or shown to be a misrepresentation or nonexistent, then both she AND her work are discredited.
She's plainly lying about being "anti-sex moderate" when she shows up at the conference held by transphobic bigots with the "anti-PIV" agenda, so her disingenuousness as a person about who she is and what she stands for relates directly to her credibility professionally.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)In fact they didn't have one at all prior to 1998 and adoption of the european convention, and even then, the list of exceptions is so long as to make it arguably meaningless.
Regarding speech, I don't see any compelling reason to be more like them.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)tolerated.
You have been asked to delete your post. Bigots do not get air time in this group.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)...and guess what!
Brace yourself,
I'm sure this will come as a shock...
You were right on both counts. She both misrepresented the information contained in the document she was using in the video, and referred to stuff in it that wasn't there:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240151464#post50
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Good catch, LadyHawk! Thanks
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)even if y'all do leave the seat up.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)The "london radical feminist conference" is the SAME event that was banned from Conway Hall for their discriminatory stance against Transpeople.
http://lettersfrombluehaven.com/2012/06/01/conway-hall-slams-hateful-radfem-2012-conference/
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1139&pid=6468
So, now we not only have Gail Dines in cahoots with the radical religious right, she is sharing a stage with bigots like Shiela Jeffreys and endorsing this group's exclusionary, anti-trans bigotry.
Can't say I'm surprised. Way to go, Gail.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Anyone quoting her as a source should be asked if they wanna quote Pat Robertson while they're at it.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)to those who would quote her and other fundies.
They . . . don't respond well to such factoids.
Standard response is to alert on you then kick you out of their group. I guess if you can't mention these facts to them they cease to be facts.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....what I really meant to say was if you quote right wing hate groups, you need to face alerts and TOS.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)The guy who did the video ould have made it about 1/8th as long IMHO.
Brevity is the source of wit, man. But still, some good points.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Last edited Thu Oct 4, 2012, 12:55 PM - Edit history (1)
October 03, 2012
Neoliberalism and the Defanging of Feminism
by WEBSITE OF THE DAY
Video deleted as requested and available at original counterpunch link or here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12557664#post25
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)As well, Gail Dines has endorsed transphobic bigotry through her appearance, and keynote speech, at the Radfem 2012 conference in london, an event which was barred from another venue over said bigotry.
The DU mens group has a "zero tolerance" policy for homophobia and transphobia. Transphobic bigotry is not welcome on this group, nor do transphobic bigots like Gail Dines have free rein to opine for 40 minutes through youtube videos here. Please delete that post. If you feel the need to share it on DU, i would suggest you try posting it in a different group. Not here.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....but I'm guessing that video wasn't a "listen to her string up her own noose" moment?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)whose members will, ironically, accuse people here of bigotry.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I expect that post to be removed.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Or the one you were referencing earlier?
To clear I don't like this lady or basically anything I've heard her say. I just think it's odd that she has such a following on here among certain forums (not this one obviously).
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)That was not directed at you.
It is worth reiterating, of course, that there has been an awful lot of scrutiny on this group- and We've made it perfectly clear that we will not tolerate, for instance, promotion of "MRA" sites or individuals, that kind of thing.
Like I said. I'm not gonna stand for giving known bigots airtime, here.
And that same logic applies to Gail Dines, who was a keynote speaker at a conference which was roundly condemned (and kicked out of a venue) for transphobic bigotry. She endorsed the transphobic bigotry of the radfem 2012 conference in July. She is not welcome here.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)do you really think it'll matter to the usual detractors?
Didn't they say that we were in favor of rape jokes even though everyone explicitly said the opposite?
Or that we defended people being sexually assaulted in elevators by serial killers/rapists even though that had nothing to do with reality?
Being vigilant and clear in your beliefs is a good thing. But there will always be some who simply do not care what you actually say.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Is this about Jeffrey's work (see below) or the efforts to deny women the right to assemble without including men or transgender individuals (Radfem 2012 London controversy)?
Or this? http://flyingontherainbow.com/2012/05/30/the-oppression-of-ms-sheila-jeffreys-a-re-imagining-of-the-facts/
If the latter, isn't 'more speech' the solution to 'offensive speech' ( http://www.aclu.org/organization-news-and-highlights/aclu-fight-hate-speech-more-speech )? What a damn shame to resort to baseless name-calling ("This is not an open forum for right wingers and their enablers to broadcast propaganda." and demands for censorship.
Look Inside Ths Book
Review
'The strength of Jeffreys' new work lies in just how many aspects of the sex industry she covers, and her understanding of their intersections.'
Julia Bindel, The Guardian
About the Author
Sheila Jeffreys is a Professor in the School of Social and Political Sciences at the University of Melbourne. She is the author of six other books on the history and politics of sexuality, including Beauty and Misogyny (Routledge, 2005). She is the founding member in 1994 of the Australian branch of the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women.
She has a considerable reputation both in the academic world and in the world of feminist and lesbian and gay politics for her work on sexuality, including 6 single authored books. Sheila Jeffreys' work is heavily referenced in academic journals and books, with 30 citations in international refereed journals in 2003 according the Web of Science citations index. Her work has been republished in French, Spanish, German, Norwegian, Swedish, and in many anthologies of feminist thought over the last few years.
Book Description
Publication Date: December 25, 2008 | ISBN-10: 0415412331 | ISBN-13: 978-0415412339 | Edition: New Ed
The industrialization of prostitution and the sex trade has created a multibillion-dollar global market, involving millions of women, that makes a substantial contribution to national and global economies.
The Industrial Vagina: The Political Economy of the Global Sex Trade (RIPE Series in Global Political Economy) examines how prostitution and other aspects of the sex industry have moved from being small-scale, clandestine, and socially despised practices to become very profitable legitimate market sectors that are being legalised and decriminalised by governments. Sheila Jeffreys demonstrates how prostitution has been globalized through an examination of:- the growth of pornography and its new global reach
- the boom in adult shops, strip clubs and escort agencies
- military prostitution and sexual violence in war
- marriage and the mail order bride industry
- the rise in sex tourism and trafficking in women.
She argues that through these practices womens subordination has been outsourced and that states that legalise this industry are acting as pimps, enabling male buyers in countries in which womens equality threatens male dominance, to buy access to the bodies of women from poor countries who are paid for their sexual subservience.
This major and provocative contribution is essential reading for all with an interest in feminist, gender and critical globalisation issues as well as students and scholars of international political economy.
Radfem 2012 Gets a New Home
So a bunch of transactivists succeeded in getting Julys two-day Radical Feminist Conference (Radfem 2012) booted from their location at Conway Hall in London. (Never heard of Conway Hall before, know lots about it now.) It happened a few days ago and the twitters are still tweeting with self-congratulations and unmollified expressions of radfem hate. They use the #radfem2012 hashtag, rather than a #stopradfem2012, because, you know, dogpiling to shut down communication is free speech. The issue is that the conference is open only to women born female and assigned female at birth. In other words: women only, and no men or transwomen. Apparently people who come into the world with child-bearing capability cant talk about their political issues from that perspective without being monitored.
So lets take stock of what transactivists won by throwing a monkeywrench in an event they wouldnt have gone to anyway as many of them claim.
~ The event will still take place, according to the website, at a different location.
~ A lot more enemies have been made for transgender people where there were none before. These would include women who are not radical feminists but like the idea of women-only space.
~ According to the program, gender identity politics was only one of many workshop topics, but you can bet its going to be talked and talked and talked about at the conference now, and not in a nice way.
~ Since the contract with Conway Hall was broken so close to the conference date, the financial and logistical impact was doubtless severe. A factor for transactivists to cheer, EXCEPT this also means a probable lawsuit. The result may not be what the transactivists would want.
~ This has a potential to be a precedent setting legal issue for womens rights in the UK, if it does go to trial. The result could also be a factor where the issue is addressed under different laws elsewhere in the world. This is long way of saying: transactivists better hope Conway Hall offers beaucoup money to keep this out of court, because this is not an ideal test case, from their point of view.
~ In fighting this battle, a bit of alliance-building has happened between transactivists and Mens Rights Activists (MRA) who have been identified as hate mongers by the respected Southern Poverty Law Center. This may be an association to haunt transactivists for a long time to come.
So why are transactivists patting themselves on the back? Are they delusional? This is one battle that can only hurt their cause, win or lose, and they were asinine to take it on.
http://radicalhub.com/2012/07/22/london-radical-feminist-conference-july-2012/
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_7_7XIZq1dUJ:conwayhall.org.uk/statement-regarding-radfem-2012+cancellation+radfem+2012+http://conwayhall.org.uk/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Your continual promotion of the words and arguments of known bigots against transgender persons, is not welcome here. You are not being silenced, however, you can't do it in THIS group. See if someone else will put up with it. We will not.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)As for Sheila Jeffreys: Here is just one of many lovely quotes from known bigot Sheila Jeffreys:
"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression "
That sort of bigotry and hate is not welcome in this group. Not now. Not ever.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Does that mean men who are clumsy or selfish in bed are better?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 5, 2012, 07:19 PM - Edit history (1)
There is nothing "natural" about that act." ~Jeffreys, The Idea Of Prostitution
Feel free to spin that as a misrepresentation. I'm dying to hear it.
They're not being misrepresented, they're being (rightly) disinfected by good old-fashioned sunlight, and possibly mocked. I'm not sure what you feel is being "misrepresented" in this thread: Jeffreys is a known bigot where transgendered persons are concerned (big hint: insisting repeatedly that transgendered women aren't women, or aren't quite women, or aren't women enough, is bigotry), and the sex workers she's trying to "save" from "prostitute abuse" (i.e. their chosen job) detest her and her ideas with every cell in their brains. Gail Dines feels women's sexuality is best expressed by not being expressed at all, lest some man find it erotic. All of this is completely verifiable via a simple Google search. They are not feminists, at least not where sexuality is concerned; they are antisex activists. Those two things are not only not the same, they are antithetical.
(my apologies for butting into your group, guys- blame Meta. I'll just be moving along now.)
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Great post
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Not to mention awful. And horrible.
And wait'll after 5pm, when they start cooking.
Still, you're welcome here any time.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)and the seat is never down. Also that there is a lingering aroma of dirty socks.
Cooking is where I draw the line though. You turn that stove on and I leave for good!
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)itself for the last couple of million years in the absence of PIV sex? How can the very nature of a species reproducing itself be "unnatural?" I have asked this question of the usual suspects and been met with clouds of obfuscatory word salad the likes of which would deeply and profoundly embarrass even Sarah Palin.
The scientific ignorance of some people on DU is just as pathetic and ludicrous as that propounded by right wing imbeciles like that fundy congressman/doctor (?) from Georgia.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)pardon the bad pun. She's a lesbian, so to her, that IS an unnatural act. Unfortunately, she's decided to sell her own personal life experience as the only natural and scientifically valid one, which is ridiculous. Profitable, I'm sure, but still ridiculous.
It's not just her views on heterosexual sex, either; she does this with her views on transsexuality and prostitution too- paints her own opinion as the only valid viewpoint and ignores the very loud voices of the transsexuals and prostitutes telling her to go fuck herself. I would dearly love to know how one passes one's self off as an expert in a field of human behavior without actually getting anywhere near the people engaging in it or taking their opinions into account. It boggles my mind.
My personal opinion is that people who find it necessary to tell other people that they're doing their sex life wrong are people miserable in their own sex life, but that's just my personal opinion. All evidence is anecdotal, your mileage may vary.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)I would actually like to know how they become "experts" when their formal education is in a completely unrelated field? Jeffereys` degree is poli-sci, others I have seen are Lit, English, Law... but not a one of them have a background in Anthro, Psych, etc.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)Melissa Farley is a big glaring exception, but she's been tagged several times for failing to follow scientific controls, or when that failed actually lying about the conclusions of her own research.
Ignoring masses of relevant data, lying about relevant data and presenting opinion as fact does not say much about the validity of a cause.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)by quoting back their exact words to them in full.
Weird how that works.
fishwax
(29,324 posts)This one, alas, has several flaws that undermine the effectiveness of the overall message.
The post basically offers a three-pronged argument against the assumption that Dines is a leftist (or is representative of the left): first, some right-wingers use leftist rhetoric; second, she tends towards authoritarianism; third, she exaggerates the significance of some things. The first is a good point; however, while it works against the "assumption" that Dines is a leftist, one could deploy the same point (as a cautionary mechanism) against anyone who employs leftist rhetoric. The second ignores the fact that, alas, the "us or them" thinking he's specifically addressing is, while more frequently in evidence on the right, not exclusive to it. The third simply points out a flaw in thinking that is itself ideological neutral. So the structure of the argument doesn't really do what the title/thesis imply.
Aside from that, there are little things that undermine credibility. Like this:
First, I think even the most zealous anti-porn advocate would readily concede that "the overwhelming majority" of predatory capitalists are not pornographers. But that doesn't give any information as to the number/percentage of pornographers who are. Similarly, the notion that some capitalists kicked some other capitalists out of their convention does nothing to dismiss the complicity of predatory capitalism in the latter.
Second, the examples that he gives undermine the argument. Are the Koch Brothers staunchly anti-porn activists? Or is this just based on an assumption that all right-wingers hate porn? I've never heard of them being involved in anti-porn activities, and their Libertarian-party past would suggest otherwise. As for Murdoch, he's a purveyor of pornography through his media holdings.
There are other such mistakes, like the "no true scotsman" fallacy in the paragraph that follows or the apparent assumption in the penultimate paragraph that porn is inherently a "form of progressive speech and action." (Though, to be fair, this might simply be a careless misuse of the word "other."
Response to fishwax (Reply #44)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
fishwax
(29,324 posts)Especially the point about the unfortunate alliances and about the logic of attacking critiques of Dines as anti-progressive. And, as I said before, I don't disagree with the blogger's general assessment of Dines. I just didn't think their execution is very good.
And, since I don't feel like doing the work I am supposed to be doing today (which involves critiquing student writing and argumentation), I figured I could sublimate with this article, which I didn't see until this afternoon.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)However, I think there's inherent political danger of labeling any anti-pornographer as progressive. For one thing, it just doesn't fit into progressive or liberal ideology. I've yet to see a convincing argument against legal pornography that improves the social standing of anyone. Arguments that legal pornography increases violence against women have never had any sound basis. Arguments about 'self-objectification' are even more nutty. So it really just boils down to the attempts to control consensual sexual behavior, which has a tendency to alienate large groups of people who reject Puritan ideas regarding sexuality. So for zero political reasons you wind up turning people off to your cause. You also inevitably invite people into your tent that have misogynistic and/or misandric agendas and often give that agenda a free pass due to the label you've allowed them to use.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Dine's use of the capitalist angle is a head-fake. Her problem isn't with the economics of porn, but the freedom of speech inherent in it.
She's wrapping her authoritarian-based complaint in a veneer of progressivism.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Remarkably common once you start looking for it.
I'm starting to think left/right is a less important distinction (although perhaps easier to discuss) than authoritarian/libertarian*.
*little L libertarian, not the party just the notion that people ought to have individual rights because that's the right thing to do. Rather than having to explain why they *need* those rights. It's usually pretty obvious: why do you need porn, why do you need guns, why do you need an abortion, why do you need to say those things . . . and so on.
fishwax
(29,324 posts)Yeah, I agree ... but I don't see how that relates to the passage you quoted about the article's claim that the Koch Brothers and Murdoch are staunchly anti-porn activists. I think that claim is dubious, and only undermines the argument he is trying to make.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I guess I see the passage you just quoted as my fundamental takeaway from the OP. I don't see the logical flaws you've identified to be materially undermining of that basic point.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Yup. She's still a worthless, pig-ignorant, transphobic bigot, two years later.
Major Nikon
(36,899 posts)...or not.
If it quacks like a duck.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)But then, when one lays down with dogs.... or is that ducks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=275415&sub=trans
Response to Warren DeMontague (Original post)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)When you share the dais with the likes of Pat Trueman, you should lose your right to call yourself a leftist. When you attempt to defend the meltdown of Shelley Lubben, then that should seal the deal.
Right. Ed Meese? Charles Keating? Phylis Shlafly?
Need I go on?
maddezmom
(135,060 posts)I bookmarked this in case someone posts this as a great feminist source.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Noted "liberal" warming up the bed with Moral Majority fundies.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Good heavens! Imagine that!
http://moralityinmedia.org/history/
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Completely ignore the fact that said religion is their basis for wanting to remove a zillion other women's rights....
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)As opposed to noting the brain-breaking cognitive dissonance that must be required to transmogrify fundamentalist RW fuckos like Ed Meese, Judith Reisman or their pals, into "progressive heroes" because hey,
AT LEAST THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT SMUT!!!
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Someone asked them if they were seriously backing an anti-choice group and suddenly....HUMMANA HUMMANA HUMMANA....YOU'RE DERAILING, YOU ANTI-CHRISTIAN!
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Bumped for the love being shown to them this weekend!
Response to Warren DeMontague (Original post)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.