An oldie but goodie: D-words and C-words

[Bonobo]

I asked one of my favorite posters and am not sure I will get a reply, but can someone here try to explain the argument for why it is okay to use a nickname for a male sexual organ as a pejorative against a person (implying that the negative qualities of the sex organ are akin to the negative qualities in the targeted person) but it is not okay to do the same thing with female sex organ nicknames.

I just want to hear the counter argument.

I am TRYING to understand, but it just seems to me to be a double standard and one side is screaming louder than the other/playing the victim card more than the other.

STILL... I do hear voices from some strong women on the board saying "Fuck that, don't pretend to be offended on my behalf! Women aren't that weak. They are STRONG!"

So...really, wtf?

[TM99]

1. Here is how it is presented.

Men have privilege. Therefore, the D word is fine to use. It knocks us down a peg or two on the ladder. Women on the other hand have less privilege, therefore it is a vile continuation of the patriarchal rape culture privilege to call a woman the C word. It continues to push them further down the ladder of privilege.

Of course, in practice it just sounds like revenge and hypocrisy. If associating a person with a sex organ is a vile slur, it should be across the board. I doubt that will ever happen.

So walk on egg shells, never use the C word, clap loudly when the D word is used to describe some vile man, and just hope your OP isn't juried.

[TreasonousBastard]

2. Taking this to a rational conclusion...

Since neither of these words is used primarily to denigrate the gender of the target, but to insult the particular member (oops) of that gender it would seem that full equality is achieved when using neither of those words results in a screaming fit.

It's just a word. Both of those words merely attempt to crudely identify the worst of their genders, not to rank the genders.

In a just world, we wouldn't be so crude in either way, but this is not a just world, so "take it like a man" has a point that will not be taken any time soon.

( jury)

[Nitram]

3. Men have always been proud of their dicks, the bigger the better

Women's genitals have long been the butt of rather nasty jokes. There's a huge difference in the emotional impact of the two words. The word "dick" is almost cute. Not so the C-word. I could explain in more detail and give examples, but I would hope the adults in the room would already know what I'm talking about. I'd suggest anyone who doesn't see (and feel) a difference is not very aware.

[Bonobo]

4. How could you REALLY know the emotional impact of both words from the POV of both genders?

Answer: I doubt you could.

[Nitram]

5. I didn't say I did.

I'm taking about my experience with the two words. Do you personally find them equivalent in emotional impact?

[Bonobo]

6. No, but that is arguably the result of all the freak out so it is a circular thing.

If everyone screamed bloody murder when someone is called a cock or dick, maybe it would be that way.

IOW, words are just words. They become invested with meaning and weight that WE attribute to them, they are not in the words themselves.

So the emotional impact you are talking about is not in the word. After we throw out the "c-word" (that ridiculously, I cannot say without risk here), then there will be another word, probably "bitch" or something and that will become the "b-word" (if it isn't already) and on and on until we have an A-Z word list.

It is silly. AND it is pointedly hypocritical to keep using male genitalia as insults if you support the banning of the so-called C-word.

[Nitram]

8. Why didn't you just post your point of view instead of asking a question you think you already...

...know the answer to? I was simply answering your question, not trying to engage in an argument. Why did you set this up to draw anybody who answered into an argument. Trolling perhaps?

Words have impacts. If you are completely immune to those impacts, you are probably a sociopath. But the way you go on and on about "silly" and "hypocritical" and "banning" leads me to believe you are all too aware of the actual impacts words have. So now who's being hypocritical, Bono?

[Bonobo]

9. I never said words don't have impact, did I?

You actually aren't making much sense.

[Nitram]

10. On the contrary, you are being disingenuous at best.

If it is hypocritical, or silly that words have impacts (as you wrote), then you don't have the faintest understanding of the topic. Once again, why did you post a question just to start an argument? Why not just post your POV so we can steer clear of your immature understanding of the power of words, and how to have a discussion where people can learn rather than a vitriolic shouting match?

[Bonobo]

11. If you feel that you are currently in a "vitriolic shouting match" then you need lots

more experience in life and must be a rather pampered.

[Nitram]

12. I used to enjoy vitriolic shouting matches

I finally realized they are a waste of time and energy. You are really good at avoiding inconvenient questions, aren't you.

[Bonobo]

13. Is that a question?

Then I think I will avoid it.

[Nitram]

14. I've asked the same question of you twice in previous posts, and you haven't answered yet.

Reading comprehension? Or just not really interested in anything but your own boring POV.

[Bonobo]

18. Ironically, I answered your question already and

it seems you are the one with the reading comprehension problems.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

16. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Sat Jun 6, 2015, 09:57 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

If you feel that you are currently in a "vitriolic shouting match" then you need lots
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=15262

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

" then you need lots more experience in life and must be a rather pampered."

That's a nasty, undeserved personal attack.



You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 6, 2015, 10:12 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Way too mild for a hide.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This whole sub thread needs to be wiped off.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Meh.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: obvious personal attack.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh, please. I'm sure the alerter ignored the condescending attitude of the other poster in the previous reply. Alert stalkers are on the loose.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


**********************************************************************

Alert stalker crew working overtime on the weekend. Sad.

I was number 7.

[Bonobo]

17. Wow, people are really, really trying to get me gone.

Fuck them.

[Nitram]

19. It might have something to do with your obvious lack of interest in conversation

And your obvious desire to argue about nothing. I didn't flag you.

[Bonobo]

20. It might be, but the truth is that I enjoy conversation when I think that two opinions

can be discussed to achieve a dialectic convergence.

Honestly, I did not mean to come off on the wrong foot with you and I apologize if I have done so.

I didn't mean to dodge your question, but perhaps I was too glib or something.

If you look back, I think you will see that I shared my opinion and for some reason it did not lead to a respectful dialog. I am sure I played a role in that, and I think you did as well.

[Eleanors38]

42. Oh, you know it. Tried a long time with me (Gungeoneer), but has died off. No hides in 2+ yrs.

[NaturalHigh]

48. You know how it can be once you get on their lists.

This group has always been a target for stalkers.

[NaturalHigh]

47. How was that even close?

That should have been a 7-0 LEAVE with an admonishment to quit stalking.

[Major Nikon]

15. I don't see the huge difference

Men's genitals are even more so the butt of rather nasty jokes and such jokes are far more acceptable in many social circles. Plug in "limpdick" on the site google search window and see what that returns. Even here, people throw that term around casually without ever giving it a second thought even though it's one of the most embarrassing medical conditions men face. The word D-word is not cute, especially when used to describe a person and the other forms of it are even more vile. Like the C-word it's used to reduce a person to their genitals which is highly insulting. In order to accept the idea that the C-word has more emotional impact you have to assume that women are more emotionally affected by insults than men and while this is a common stereotype, I don't believe it and I think such a stereotype is simultaneously sexist against both male and female.

I just can't agree with you and I'd suggest anyone who thinks there's a huge difference is not very aware.

[Bonobo]

21. I guess Nitram doesn't want to discuss it as much as he/she claims to. nt

[Major Nikon]

22. The "community standards" reveal quite a bit on this

You can imply someone has a small penis. You can call someone a "dick" or a "prick". You can say a man's penis is nonfunctional for sex. It's highly unlikely any of this behavior will receive so much as an alert, let alone a hide or a ban.

On the other hand if you use the C-word for just about any reason, you will almost certainly get a hide and may be banned. I can only imagine that if anyone were to imply a woman has a large vagina or her sex organs are nonfunctional, the results would be the same.

From a "community standards" standpoint, I'm not going to say that either one of these reactions are wrong, but I don't believe anyone can say both are simultaneously right without a tacit admission there's an extreme double standard going on.

I've posed this question to the gender warriors a few times. Most often I'm asked why I don't alert on such male directed sexism (which would be a fruitless exercise even if I was inclined to do it), or I get some kind of half-fast argument for double standards which ironically involves discussions of privilege.

[Nitram]

23. I'd suggest the use of the words "dick" and "pussy" are roughly equivalent.

Neither is as unacceptable as the c-word. But that's just based on my experience. Perhaps ya'll throw the c-word around with total abandon in day-to-day conversation.

[Major Nikon]

24. Equivalent in that both are used as a pejorative against men and very rarely against women

Even if the ones used against women are less acceptable to some people, that in itself is quite telling, no? Kinda flips the whole 'male privilege' thing on its head.

[Nitram]

25. Aww, quit your whining.

When women have equal rights and pay, then you can start crying about your petty "injustices."

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. Which rights did you have in mind?

And equal pay has been the law for 50 years.

[Nitram]

28. Lumberjack, haven't you noticed that the equal pay law is not being enforced?

Or do you really believe women are about 78% less productive than men?

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. How many hours does the average full time woman work?

How many hours does the average full time man work?

[Nitram]

30. I give. How many?

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. It's your claim. Maybe you should be able to back it up. n/t

[Nitram]

33. It's my claim tht men work more hours than women?

You are being more than disingenuous.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. "Disingenuous" that word means something other than what you think it means.

No, women aren't "78% less productive". If they were, they'd be paid 22% as much as men.

What you meant to say is she's paid 22% less, which is largely bullshit.

Women work fewer hours, in lower paying occupations in shorter careers. Those three factors account for almost all of the pay gap.

And yes, I could provide links for all three things.

Here's a simple proof statement: self-employed women make less than self-employed men. Are we to believe that her boss is discriminating against her?

The pay gap will never change until men and women make the same life choices and men are awarded parental custody in equal numbers.

The rhetoric of equal pay day sounds appealing until you realize that the solution is for your husband to stay home with the baby while you take the 12 hour shift in the log truck.

[Nitram]

36. The word means exactly what I think it means.

But your link has persuaded me that I should have stated the issue thusly: there still are numerous examples of women getting paid less than men for “doing the exact same job.” Like I said, "disingenous" of you to feign ignorance about the fact that women are often not treated equally in the workplace. Unless you really are ignorant. the link you posted suggests otherwise.

[Major Nikon]

38. The equal pay act does not guarantee anyone the same pay for the same job

It simply guarantees that gender can't be a factor for paying someone less.

It sounds like you no longer believe the 22% figure is all due to discrimination. Do you have a ballpark figure as to what part of it is? You may wish to read this before you answer as it's the most comprehensive study available on the subject:

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

[Major Nikon]

27. You hear that a lot on DU

Except from those who aren't kidding on either point.

[Eleanors38]

43. Visit the Gungeon for life beyond Dicks. Best encyclopedia around for the many

"Equivalents" to "pussy."

Extensions, gun humpers, ammosexuals come immediately to mind. All hide-proof.

[prayin4rain]

32. Obviously, there is no word for men's genitals that implies

that they are vile, dirty, worthless, immoral creatins, because men are the power gender. Calling someone a dick is like calling them an asshole or a bitch. It's not meant to degrade the person based on their inferior gender. Calling a woman a c**t is more analogous to calling a nonsexually abusive man a rapist or a child molester or something that implies that he's necessarily vile or violent because he is a man and therefore automatically has traits that make him less fit to contribute equally in society.

[Nitram]

34. Pray4Rain, you've hit the nail on the head.

[Major Nikon]

37. I don't follow your analogy at all

...and implying that word has anything to do with an "inferior gender" is reading quite a bit into it.

[Bonobo]

39. "Calling someone a dick is like calling them an asshole "

Yes, that is partially right.

And what negative qualities of penises (or men) are being intended here?

Come on, you can do it! Think!

Yes! That men are LIKE penises! They don't use their brains! They are mindless animalistic servants of their own filthy sexuality!

In fact, penises (and boys) are treated as dirty things. Let me demonstrate. The model of sexual relations is one in which the penis is essentially considered a dirty thing that infects the golden vagina.

Women are taught to protect their treasure and men are taught that it is a dirty, filthy thing. Gold vs. dirt.

So "You're a dick, cock" is really not so nice.

[prayin4rain]

40. Welp, if that's what you feel like the word

dick connotes, then I agree with you. Maybe it's a regional thing like our Australian posters have pointed out the other word is.

In my experience calling someone, man or woman, a dick means you're saying they're being insensitive and calling someone, man or woman, a pussy means you're saying they're being too sensitive.

If in your experience calling a person a dick is meant to degrade them based on their filthy sexuality, then yes, I'd agree that is more in line with the c**t word.

Men, nor women, should not be made to feel like they automatically have traits based upon their gender that make them vile, filthy or bad. That's just terrible.

Protect their treasure. ... That cracked me up!

[Major Nikon]

41. Either way the literal intent is to reduce someone's value to their genitals

Any argument that one has more emotional impact than the other relies on the assumption of one gender being more emotionally unstable, which is itself sexist.

[Eleanors38]

44. Good point, and worth reiterating. nt

[NaturalHigh]

46. I'm not following what you're saying.

Maybe something is getting lost in the translation.

[NaturalHigh]

45. "it just seems to me to be a double standard"...

That's it in a nutshell. Anything more is just hyperbole.