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Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
Sun Dec 7, 2014, 01:08 PM Dec 2014

Proposing marriage is now sexist

But only if the man does it. Kinda like holding doors open I suppose. Amazing the stuff you learn on DU.

Although actually it sounds more like the radical feminism of the 70's and 80's that promoted the idea that marriage itself was all about ownership, which was somewhat easier to understand. I do think "traditional" marriage has outlived its usefulness and the government should get out of that business.

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Proposing marriage is now sexist (Original Post) Major Nikon Dec 2014 OP
I posted a poll sometime ago about... discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2014 #1
Tradition is a strong influence on most people Major Nikon Dec 2014 #3
The gov. getting out of the marriage-sanctifying biz was a proposal for compromise... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #21
There's been a serious fight for a while now to redefine various terms... Veilex Dec 2014 #2
One doesn't even need to advocate for feminism, just gender parity Major Nikon Dec 2014 #4
Agreed! Veilex Dec 2014 #5
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2014 #18
I weighed in on that misplaced HoF, er, thing Doctor_J Dec 2014 #6
I'm not sure those who promote these ideas are doing their cause any good Major Nikon Dec 2014 #7
There was no choice in my recent marriage (I got married 11/17). Behind the Aegis Dec 2014 #8
Which begs the question Major Nikon Dec 2014 #9
Yes, it does make things more complicated. Behind the Aegis Dec 2014 #10
I think there's a clear diversity benefit that gay marriage offers Major Nikon Dec 2014 #11
Despite your underwhelming experience, I believe that many same sex engagements also involve Doctor_J Dec 2014 #12
Oh yeah, that's true, as well. Behind the Aegis Dec 2014 #13
Some look very hard to find oppression Major Nikon Dec 2014 #14
That's awesome. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #16
btw, bta. which of you clubbed the other over the head and dragged the other Doctor_J Dec 2014 #17
We tied the knot last Friday. Adcul1 Jul 2015 #19
Best wishes on your new marriage Major Nikon Aug 2015 #20
Engagement rings: symbol of the patriarchy. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #15

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,577 posts)
1. I posted a poll sometime ago about...
Sun Dec 7, 2014, 01:41 PM
Dec 2014

...the government getting out of the business of sanctioning that, who and how many we choose as partners. Most folks that voted were against eliminating government recognized unions. I kind of favor having the government kicked out of all that.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
3. Tradition is a strong influence on most people
Sun Dec 7, 2014, 01:54 PM
Dec 2014

I don't think it's very progressive to have the government promoting tradition for no other reason. If someone wants a sanctioned marriage, they can go to a priest, a rabbi, or a witch doctor if they so desire. If someone wants a marriage contract, they can write their own out with whatever terms they want. Binding arbitration is even available commercially if there's a dispute. No government involvement is required.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
21. The gov. getting out of the marriage-sanctifying biz was a proposal for compromise...
Tue Oct 13, 2015, 03:36 PM
Oct 2015

on LGBTQ marriage debate. One which would have established only the equivalent rights of traditional marriage (wills, acting attorney, ownership, etc.), leaving the "Holiness" up to religious institutions, the Flying Speghetti Monster, Albert the Alligator, or no one in particular. But the far right, normally so loathing of government Anything, would have none of that. It wanted gubmint sanction or nothing. It got the latter.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
2. There's been a serious fight for a while now to redefine various terms...
Sun Dec 7, 2014, 01:52 PM
Dec 2014

Its nothing we're not already used to.... the GOP and Dems (mostly the GOP) have been doing this for ages.

There is a concerted effort to paint some actions, such as your example of marriage, as being sexist. I do agree with you in that I too think this is largely due to radical feminism... much in the same way that radical feminism would paint all men as rapists.

Feminism has picked up the notion that in order for women to achieve equal rights, men must be torn down. I think a lot of radical feminism emanates from and focuses almost exclusively on that idea.

The feminism I advocate, and think is much healthier, is one where we all lift women up. Help support and empower them.
It is exponentially harder for sexism to exist around women who have been empowered. The more strong/empowered women there are, the harder it is for it to exist.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
4. One doesn't even need to advocate for feminism, just gender parity
Sun Dec 7, 2014, 01:58 PM
Dec 2014

The true path to equality is treating everyone as equals.

 

Veilex

(1,555 posts)
5. Agreed!
Sun Dec 7, 2014, 02:16 PM
Dec 2014

I'm fairly annoyed with people trying to label me as a feminist because I support that gender parity.
I'm not a feminist, because I choose not to be associated with radical feminism. Instead, I'm an Egalitarian. I support everyone's rights.
I believe in fairness for all...not just a select group.

Response to Veilex (Reply #5)

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
6. I weighed in on that misplaced HoF, er, thing
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 12:04 AM
Dec 2014

I wonder what the jury results will be when it's inevitably alerted. If these are the people with whom we vote, our future world seem to be pretty dicey.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
7. I'm not sure those who promote these ideas are doing their cause any good
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 12:17 AM
Dec 2014

Because while it may be true that at one time marriage consisted of hitting your prospective mate over the head with a club and dragging her back to your cave, whatever traditional vestiges that remain aren't necessarily sexist. If one does want to make the argument that the traditional marriage proposal is an example of benevolent sexism, then it seems an even better example would be alimony or perhaps even the entire institution of marriage as we know it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which gender stands to loose the most privilege if those traditions are dismantled.

Behind the Aegis

(54,854 posts)
8. There was no choice in my recent marriage (I got married 11/17).
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 12:32 AM
Dec 2014

Given we are both dudes, a man had to do it. It went something like this...

me: Now, that it is legal, think we should do it?
husband to be: well, it makes sense, especially if we do it before the end of the year and the benefits fair is coming up for my job.
me: OK, let me make some calls.
HTB: sound good.
me: hey wait? are we officially planning to get married?
HTB: sounds like it. I am cool if you are.
me: I'll start calling tomorrow.
HTB: good! Oh, did you feed the birds today?

ETA: Sorry for the sugary proposal!

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
9. Which begs the question
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 12:37 AM
Dec 2014

Which one of you was the victim of sexism and which was the perpetrator?

and...

Won't someone please think of the birds?

Behind the Aegis

(54,854 posts)
10. Yes, it does make things more complicated.
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 12:44 AM
Dec 2014

When many of these discussions come up, GL (sometimes B and T) are left out of the equation. Sometimes, it is a blessing in disguise, other times it is just another example of heterosexism. It was awhile ago (early 90's, I think) and there was an article about "sexism" in gay male coupling based on sexual proclivities. It was one of the most stupid things I had EVER seen. It was written by a straight woman, and it was so disgustingly homophobic, I would have rather read something from Fred Phelps, because at least he was honest in his bigotry. When I finally purge my files from college (so, some time in the next 20 years), I'll see if I still have the photocopy of the article.

Yes, we need to do better by our birds.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
11. I think there's a clear diversity benefit that gay marriage offers
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 12:52 AM
Dec 2014

Because out of sheer necessity it breaks down the barriers of gender expectations. The other side of that coin is that if someone wants to adhere to the traditional customs of getting down on one knee and proposing, trading rings, or whatever they should be free to do that as well regardless of their gender identity or sexual orientation.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
12. Despite your underwhelming experience, I believe that many same sex engagements also involve
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 01:10 PM
Dec 2014

champagne and bended knee and rings, which sort of contradicts the narrative that such a "ceremony" is oppressive and misogynistic. But I am looking from a distance at that situation, so could be way off.

Behind the Aegis

(54,854 posts)
13. Oh yeah, that's true, as well.
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 01:20 PM
Dec 2014

Last year, on Modern Family the two main gay characters were both trying to have surprise proposals, and ended up proposing over a flat tire. It is true, our proposals come in many forms from elaborate to mundane. I don't see how someone could see the process as "oppressive" at all.

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)
14. Some look very hard to find oppression
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 04:25 PM
Dec 2014

In the ATA group, someone accused DU of bigotry due to the demographics of the admins.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
16. That's awesome.
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 11:43 PM
Dec 2014

I sometimes envy my same sex friends unambiguous relationships.
"You wanna get married?"
"Yeah, I suppose. The car will be paid off in January. How about March?"
"Okay. What do you want for dinner?"

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
17. btw, bta. which of you clubbed the other over the head and dragged the other
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 10:51 AM
Dec 2014

back to the cave? Apparently marriage proposals are an extension of that

Adcul1

(2 posts)
19. We tied the knot last Friday.
Thu Jul 30, 2015, 01:49 PM
Jul 2015

I was hoping to put my new husband on my insurance plan. I work at Werner Enterprises. They refused, we are scrambling now.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
15. Engagement rings: symbol of the patriarchy.
Mon Dec 8, 2014, 11:39 PM
Dec 2014

If they think that's a good tactic to rekindle popular support for feminism... good luck with that.

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