Men need... (add your own).

[Bonobo]

Men need a break from the majority burden of supporting the family
Men need a break from the pressure to be "financially successful".
Men need a chance to work less and spend more time with loved ones.
Men need to be judged less on their power, their strength, their hair, their height.
Men need to give each other more love and support.
Men need to be given the right to complain without being called "whiners"
Men need to be given the right to be sexual without being called "creepy"
Men need to be given the right to cry without being called "babies"
Men need to be given the right to cling without being called "clingers"
Men need to be able to yell without being accused of being "violent".

A few points to add: In many ways, "creepy" is the male version of "slutty". Discuss.
Women who yell may be called angry, but they are not immediately called "violent". Discuss.
When was the last time you heard a woman called "clingy". I think its mostly used for men.
Have you ever heard a crying woman called a "baby"? (And no, moms tell boys not to cry too.)

[sibelian]

1. Men need to separate themselves from the idea that they are little "society units"

And ask themselves what they actually WANT.

[bettyellen]

2. Creepy is about ignoring other people's boundaries, and imposing yourself on a disinteretsed party

by not picking up on social cues like, not staring at the boobs, unsolicited groping, making off color jokes and then being pissed off or ignoring it and continuing if someone cringes, following people around trying to engage them further after they have discouraged it, and left your company. It's creepy when you continue to show interest in someone, by staring and following those who are not interested in you- because it makes them feel unsafe. And it happens often. Women are socialized to be polite, and rarely empowered enough to ask people to just go away because they don;t want to offend anyone or cause things to escalate. The creep usually doesn't realize they have no "right" to their company, or to be liked by this person. Many respond pretty angrily if you politely blow them off to continue the conversation they interrupted. Some people take "No, thank you" pretty hard, and respond with insults.

I have no idea how that is similar to whatever concept of "sluts" you might have. Women can be creepy too, it's just on average, we can't overcome a man or force our company, or ourselves on men quite as easily. So, I think men usually just laugh it off, because they don't perceive any danger.

Do you think guys get the wrong idea from movies, where they "win" a gal over by trying extra hard? Making an effort is good, but imposing yourself where you aren;t welcomed is definitely not. Most women understand the difference. Hope that helps.

[Bonobo]

6. That behavior is anti-social and if you want to call it "creepy", I have no problem with that.

On the other hand, I see the word thrown around A LOT more easily than that and a search through DU would demonstrate what I mean.

[bettyellen]

10. I just wanted to clear up what is the most common usage of creepy.... Creeper encompasses that but

also applies to someone who is seen to ONLY be there to chase gals- (successfully or not). Like if you go to party of friends, and someone flits from gal to gal till he's successful- like it's a meat-rackish singles bar instead of a friendly party. It's not as worrisome as creepy -but some women will take note if a guy is always being on the prowl. Brothel creeper= on the make.

I think some people will describe anyone they feel is a little off as creepy, and it's not always fair- but a lot of times signals go off, and you don't know exactly what they are and you get a bad vibe. I am sure a lot of nice guys stare instead of just saying Hi! and then ruin their chances. Not her faukt for being bothered by staring. It is rude.

A lot of times, it's behavior that I described in my earlier post that sets off those signals. I think it took a lot of experiences like that before I could even describe clearly what it was that felt wrong. You tend to want to give people the benefit of the doubt, and not piece together the bits of anti social behavior into a clear picture till you've had a run in or two.

[Bonobo]

12. Thank you for taking your time to explain, Betty.

I guess it's the "not always fair" part that is what I am equating to the "slut" comparison.

The similarity, as I see it, is that it is shaming for sexual behavior.

If a man takes an interest in a woman, at a bar for example, and asks to buy a drink (for example) as a way to meet her, he may often be called creepy because it may seem apparent or be assumed that his interest is one of a sexual nature. To then call him "creepy" for approaching is shaming in the same manner as "slut shaming". Analagous but not the same.

[bettyellen]

17. You are welcome. I think when you are young, you can be a lot more insensitive. I have never found

it creepy unless a person can't take a polite no thanks for an answer. Sometimes people act all invested in it- like they are trying to guilt you, or get mad if you say no... and that's not a great feeling. If someone doesn't know you at all, then it shouldn't be a big deal at all. I think some guys need a lot of practice interacting with women without any expectations, just like we're anyone else- because that's the best way. No pedestals or crazy expectations, you know? But that comes with age.

Sometimes I really think men and women get the wrong idea from John Hughes movies where people do all kinds of crazy shit, and everything ends up great. I want to scream at the screen- it is NEVER cool to stalk a person, if your date is dead drunk, you don't pass her to another guy to see if he can "get lucky" on the way home (Sixteen Candles, believe it or not) and it is rarely a smart idea to get a microphone and profess or sing anything over a PA system until you know them well enough to know it will go over well. Just act relatively normal, people! There's no shame in it, LOL.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. Still, if you're worried about contemporary attitudes being unduly influenced by John Hughes movies

...you're about 30 years too late.

I agree about 16 Candles- that movie came out in, what, 1985?- there are a ton of elements in there that would never fly today, starting with the entire characterization of Long Duk Dong.

Personally, FWIW, I was more partial to the Savage Steve Holland catalog, anyway.

[bettyellen]

20. well, John Hughes just stood out because I can imagine teenagers being dumb enough to pick up "tips"

from them. Hopefully adults know better, but maybe not!

[Warren DeMontague]

22. I had a witty retort all ready, and then I realized that, yes, actually

I do still dress like John Cusack in One Crazy Summer.

[bettyellen]

23. as long as you leave the boombox at home.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Different movie.

[bettyellen]

25. he's the guy with the boombox in every film, even Tin Whatchamacallits.

[Major Nikon]

26. That's the right attitude, but not everyone shares it

Attractive men are rarely regarded as creepy unless their behavior is extreme, while unattractive men are routinely regarded as creepy for having the nerve to ask in the first place. "Slut" and "creep" are not direct gender counterparts, but both are used to shame people for acting on their sexual urges even if their behavior is not inappropriate.

[bettyellen]

28. Yeah, both women and men can be shit heads. Women get ridiculed for being unattractive or heavy all

the time- sometimes loudly- before they even try and talk to anyone. I live in a town that has a lot of Wall Street assholes. Many haven't outgrown their fraternity/ sorority days, and snotty comments abound.
I learned a while ago that the world is nicer to you when you look better. When my Dad was very sick, and I was getting 3-4 hours of sleep a day from going from work to the hospital to bed non-stop, as soon as I looked rough from it, or my hair was a mess, many people were ruder or just avoided me. I really felt like a wounded animal that the herd was trying to separate from. It made things pretty unpleasant for a while.
When I began to look for a job in the middle of all that, I knew I had to really get it together and fake it enough to present well or I was screwed. The minute I gave my hair an extra twenty minutes and was more thoughtful choosing my clothes, the world was so much nicer to me. Everyone I interacted with magically was so much more pleasant, and it helped me get through some rough days even while I knew it was unfair. It was a strange lesson to learn, because it shouldn't matter, and we should be kinder to people when they have it rough. But the world will kick your ass when you are down. Boy, will it ever.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. Men should be able to express themselves without being called "weak*."

(* that is just the 'good' term, there are others, usually quite homophobic)

Men should be able to have relationships with women and it not be "suspicious."
Men should be able to refuse sex and not accused of infidelity or having performance issues.
Men should be able to have relationships with other men which are close and fulfilling.

I will disagree with your assertion about men being called clingy more often. I usually see it applied to women. That is the thing with perceptions, they are shaped by our own experiences.

I will whole-heartedly agree with your comments about men being allowed to be emotional and not derided for being so. However, I see this as a human problem. So many, IMO, are not taught how to deal with various emotions and we end up with emotional stunted people.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

4. Clingy, I find, is applied to women

Men are called "overbearing", "overprotective" or "jealous". Men are generally saddled with the more threatening form of these terms.

As far as creepy....it's not even about being sexual. A man should have the right to say "hello" and smile at a woman without his intentions immediately being sized up, dissected and labeled creepy just because he's short, overweight, balding, isn't wearing Armani, doesn't look like Bradley Cooper, etc.

[Bonobo]

7. Yes, that's what I am talking about.

Women say a man is "creepy" if he is unattractive but approaches them to say hello.

[bettyellen]

11. I've only really seen that with really young women who don't know better how to handle themselves

or when the guy is double your age or your boss or something- so that you feel the attention is inappropriate. But I don't know any adults that do the "mean girl" thing. I have only seen it in teen movies.

[geek tragedy]

5. 'creepy' is nothing like 'slutty'

'creepy' is about making other people uncomfortable. music can be creepy, behavior can be creepy, etc.

it's about failing to respect other people's boundaries etc.

'slutty' is an attempt to shame people for things that are no one else's business

as for the rest of the stuff, meh, I've never experienced any of those

[Bonobo]

8. Just because you haven't experienced them...

Do you think that a man, expressing them here, deserves to get a dismissive "meh"?

Isn't that IN ITSELF indicative of something? Yes, it sure is. Give it some thought.

[geek tragedy]

9. i was providing my own personal reaction, I have not witnessed them

or experienced them.

maybe it's because I've been hanging around feminists

[Bonobo]

13. Yes, but the dismissive "meh" sort of proved my point.

You were most definitely engaging in behavior that dismisses mens' feelings.

No real way to deny that I'm afraid since it is right there.

[geek tragedy]

14. no, I am saying my feeling as a man was 'meh'

those things flow from a belief system that I long ago rejected

it is unfortunate that men who haven't gotten out of that box are caused a lot of grief because of it

the answer is to challenge the societal belief system that assigns these stupid gender roles

I believe you would agree with that.

here's the thing--that belief system that you and I both despise--that belief system is what feminists are talking about when they criticize the 'patriarchy.'

it's the common enemy of men and women

[Bonobo]

15. OK, I have no problem agreeing with all that, but

Except for the term "Patriarchy", I don't think it is a good term. We are talking about a status quo that is supported and continued by both men AND women, so I wouldn't use that term.

But I agree about the gender roles.

Still, your "meh" was dismissive and encapsulated precisely what I see when I see mens' feeling being tossed out as whining.

[geek tragedy]

16. feminists would also agree that both men and women support it

indeed, it would die within a generation if one gender or the other were to step away from it.

[bettyellen]

18. It's the best term we have, and we need you to accept it. We know that it is both a blessing and a

huge burden for men. Our side of the coin is not a bed of roses, either.

[westerebus]

27. Co-dependent culture.

Non-sexist with equal standing.

Just a thought.

[Major Nikon]

30. It never was all that much of a blessing and is even less so now

The only legal remnants of the patriarchy disadvantage men and the social remnants aren't any better. It basically means men get a disproportionate share of the responsibilities with few advantages. Other than that, I agree it's a system which has far outlived its usefulness which limits opportunities for both men and women.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. ... to speak for themselves.

[Major Nikon]

31. Or at the very least stop being criticized for doing so

[Eleanors38]

33. ^^^ This.

[YoungDemCA]

38. They don't already?

nt

[In_The_Wind]

29. Men need understanding.

Men need room to breathe.

[Eleanors38]

32. My problem: "Men need to be given..." When any group

is seeking redress for mistreatment, negative status, or outright discrimination, they generally demand what is just, or claim justice as a right. Not to quibble by using a more constitutional outlook, I am not interested in someone " giving" as much as I am interested in them recognizing what is fair and rightful.

EDIT to add: Good post!

[Bonobo]

34. You're right. I could have worded it better. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

35. It's a good question, and I guess my immediate reaction after looking at the list that comes to mind

is that there are really two aspects, or ways to interpret the question- what do men need internally, and what do they need externally in terms of how society relates to them?

My inclination first is to answer it from the internal side, my own personal subjective opinion being that men (and, really, all people) need; inspiration, vision, a sense of humor, a reason to get out of bed in the morning despite existential angst, compassion, integrity, serenity and an ability to let go as well as connect.

In terms of society, I think men absolutely ought to be free of rigid societal expectations, including those attached to gender- one of the most perniciously ridiculous pieces of misinformation I've seen spread on this board, about this group, is the idiotic idea that this is some enclave dedicated to enforcing some archaic standard of gender norms. Nothing could be farther from the case, however this group's detractors similarly could never quite figure out why this place wasn't also the den of homophobia they've consistently wanted to insist it is.

Certainly some might call those archaic enforced gender norms and expectations "patriarchy", I've spent more than enough time going on about labels, honestly I don't care if people want to call them "Frank", it doesn't really change the on-the-ground reality of what they translate out to in peoples' lives. Families should be able to structure their lives, ideally, so that parents can spend more time with their kids, and if, in our modern over-stretched world, that means they're fortunate to be able to have a parent home with the kids, there's no reason why that "should" be the woman as opposed to the man. Nor should housework or other domestic duties be assumed to break along gender-specific lines. Nor should it be assumed that the man "ought to be" the one with the career, or the woman "ought to be" home with the kids, yadda yadda.

I also would say, regarding the above paragraphs; finding a conventionally attractive woman in a bathing suit, or a strapping male actor for that matter, physically visually appealling, does NOT mean one is "enforcing gender norms". People can like what they like (eyeroll eyeroll heavy sigh) and not be saying "this is how everyone must be". That, to me, seems like a strikingly obvious point, but it's fairly clear that distinction flies way over the heads of a bunch of folks.


Last thing I would say about societal "expectations"- they are real. Certainly, if one doesn't have a job and has no money, it's ludicrous to assert that they can meditate their way out of some mental chains that keep their wallet empty. That's "The Secret" type stuff. That said, I will reiterate my belief that past a certain point many -not all, to be sure, but many- of these expectations or walls or categories or social stigmas or whatever, at least in this country, fortunately, now in the 21st Century... only affect the affected insofar as they are willing to buy into that noise within their own head.


The goose has to get itself out of the bottle.

[In_The_Wind]

36. Warren DeMontague

[ElboRuum]

37. How about this.

Men need a break from being torn down.

The many things you describe in your OP wouldn't be such an issue if the suggestion that because they are men, it makes them immune to the ravages of disrespect and loathing they get from some quarters, were held up and openly ridiculed as the loathsome self-serving tripe that it is.

[YoungDemCA]

39. Men need to stop feeling sorry for themselves when their unearned social advantage is criticized

Men need to stop blaming women for their issues.
Men need to stop blaming feminists for their issues.
Men need to take ownership of their responsibility for the perpetuation of gender inequalities and roles.
Men need to realize that the world does not revolve around them (as individuals or as a group).
Men need to stop making false equivalencies between the oppression that women face and the criticism that men get from feminists.
Men need to acknowledge that they benefit from existing and historical gender norms.
Men need to realize that the only thing holding them back from breaking the gender roles are the expectations that men put on themselves, and on each other as well.

[Major Nikon]

40. You can also swap the gender roles for all of your statements

Just sayin'

[YoungDemCA]

41. False equivalency

But thanks for your concern.

[Major Nikon]

42. Only if you believe men are to blame for all of women's problems

Furthermore if your attempt is to stir up shit here by claiming the folks who frequent this group are trying to blame all men's problems on women or feminists, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Just sayin'